Dion Phaneuf discussion thread

[Divine]

And you think Phaneuf is a defensive liability? Christ.

Phaneuf in the playoffs was a -6, with 3 points in 7 games. Franson was even, with 6 points in 7 games.

Edit: Regular season:

Franson: 45GP 29 Points +4
Phaneuf: 48GP 28 Points -4

Franson was also scratched and reinserted into the lineup to take away his timing, if you left him in there as Phaneuf is consistently left, I'm fairly confident he'll be a better all around defender than Phanuef. Phaneuf is a huge liability playing defence, highlighted in the Game 7 collapse, had we had someone else out there.. things may have been different..

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Dion Phaneuf has NEVER had a + season as a Leaf, always been a - player, put me out there 25 minutes against the best players in the league, I'll be a minus player too - just because he plays against them, doesn't make him good, he always loses.

I'd put Franson over him, including on our PP and PK, we can live without him, I think Phaneuf is too slow for the current game. Even on the PP, slowly takes the puck into their zone, and just shoots as hard as he can, I don't think he has any intention of hitting the net.

Plus/minus? really? because that has nothing to do with having awful goaltending over the years right? check where the Leafs ended in goals against over the years. You'll be hard pressed to find any of the D with a great rating. Didn't fraser lead this team in the stat all season? probably has something to do with playing against third and fourth liners. Just a hunch. Take a look-

http://somekindofninja.com/nhl/usag...el&yAxis=relQoc&update-filters=Update+Results

Pretty safe to say that Phaneuf is pretty damn good.

 

[Divine]

Plus/minus? really? because that has nothing to do with having awful goaltending over the years right? check where the Leafs ended in goals against over the years. You'll be hard pressed to find any of the D with a great rating. Didn't fraser lead this team in the stat all season? probably has something to do with playing against third and fourth liners. Just a hunch. Take a look-

http://somekindofninja.com/nhl/usag...el&yAxis=relQoc&update-filters=Update+Results

Pretty safe to say that Phaneuf is pretty damn good.

The Leafs as a team were +12 in GF/GA - you can blame goaltending all you want, but he's never been a + player. Only defenceman with a worst +/- on the Leafs than him were... Holzer, Kostka & O'Byrne - Most of these defenceman won't make the top 6 in most teams, let alone be a good defenceman, yet Phaneuf is?

GA has a lot to do with the defence too, we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league, with Phaneuf as our top defenceman, why doesn't he take any of the blame? He's our captain. The quality of competition doesn't make much of a difference when you're constantly a minus, maybe if he was a + player against top players, I'd agree. But the team as a whole was a +, top line is usually against top line, or a checking line (so more defensive help), and your team is a +. You shouldn't be a minus year after year.

Edit: How does Phaneuf having 3 points, and being a minus 6 in a 7 game series, as a Captain give you any hope that this guy will lead us to a cup?

 

[jmart21]

Plus minus feel my wrath!!!!!

 

[Man Bear Pig]

The Leafs as a team were +12 in GF/GA - you can blame goaltending all you want, but he's never been a + player. Only defenceman with a worst +/- on the Leafs than him were... Holzer, Kostka & O'Byrne - Most of these defenceman won't make the top 6 in most teams, let alone be a good defenceman, yet Phaneuf is?

GA has a lot to do with the defence too, we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league, with Phaneuf as our top defenceman, why doesn't he take any of the blame? He's our captain. The quality of competition doesn't make much of a difference when you're constantly a minus, maybe if he was a + player against top players, I'd agree. But the team as a whole was a +, top line is usually against top line, or a checking line (so more defensive help), and your team is a +. You should be a minus year after year.

Edit: How does Phaneuf having 3 points, and being a minus 6 in a 7 game series, as a Captain give you any hope that this guy will lead us to a cup?

Okay so, you continue with plus/minus, an extremely misleading and almost useless stat, and ignore corsi? Since Dion joined this team, and well before his arrival, the goaltending has been awful.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Plus minus feel my wrath!!!!!

Haha.

This thread is jokes.

 

[7even]

Came for the lulz, left satisfied.

 

[kamosko]

Why is it that that people still think that Phaneuf sucks, they always seem to throw out the stats and evidence that he is a damn good defenseman out the window right off the bat lol

 

[Grant]

The Leafs as a team were +12 in GF/GA - you can blame goaltending all you want, but he's never been a + player. Only defenceman with a worst +/- on the Leafs than him were... Holzer, Kostka & O'Byrne - Most of these defenceman won't make the top 6 in most teams, let alone be a good defenceman, yet Phaneuf is?

GA has a lot to do with the defence too, we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league, with Phaneuf as our top defenceman, why doesn't he take any of the blame? He's our captain. The quality of competition doesn't make much of a difference when you're constantly a minus, maybe if he was a + player against top players, I'd agree. But the team as a whole was a +, top line is usually against top line, or a checking line (so more defensive help), and your team is a +. You shouldn't be a minus year after year.

Edit: How does Phaneuf having 3 points, and being a minus 6 in a 7 game series, as a Captain give you any hope that this guy will lead us to a cup?

So the only defensemen who are worse in that stat didn't even play a full season with the leafs indicating they are miles worse. 2 of the players were Dion's partner as well, dragging him down.

I had this post from before.



Not sure what more Phaneuf has to do...

This image looks at players quality of competition and their offense zone starts. The higher you are, the harder the competition you face. The more to the left you are, the more often you start in the defensive zone.

Phaneuf was kind of in a league of his own in those regards.

Not to mention he was:
- T-5th in goals
- T-9th in points
- Played the 5th most out of all players (11th most per game)
- Was the defensemen on the PK the most for the team with the 2nd best PK
- 8th best shooting percentage among the defensemen with 5+ goals

Overpaid? Nah. Here are some examples of players contracts, only taking the first 8 years salaries if they are back diving:
- Weber 92m over first 8 years (11.5m per)
- Suter 80m over first 8 years (10m per)
- Doughty 56m over first 8 years (7m per AS A RFA)
- Karlsson 45.5m over first 7 years (6.5m per AS A RFA)
- Chara 45.5 over first 7 years (6.9m per (for a while) at near 40 years old)
- Keith 57.75m over first 8 years (7.22m per AS A RFA)

 

[The_Chosen_One]

The fact that we're seeing the +/- minus metric is being used is why position against Phaneuf is baseless. If we were to actually go back to the games, it was clearly obvious that he was sheltering Franson and Gardiner. Take him out of the equation, and you'll simply see their production drop.

Never mind, that he takes on top lines, largely starts in the defensive zone and yet produces at a top 5 level. As for his playoff performance, his tasks were defensive-oriented and yet he produced 3 points. On the other hand, the significantly sheltered, offensively utilized players such as Kadri and Lupul only produced one additional point more.

Simply said, he's easily worth more than $6.5 million. If we extend him at his current cap, he's taking a discount. On the open market, he'd be worth over $7 million.

Why is it that that people still think that Phaneuf sucks, they always seem to throw out the stats and evidence that he is a damn good defenseman out the window right off the bat lol

They throw out advanced statistics and use simplistic measures instead. Simply, pathetic.

 

[JackJ]

5mil

 

[The Podium]

The Leafs as a team were +12 in GF/GA - you can blame goaltending all you want, but he's never been a + player. Only defenceman with a worst +/- on the Leafs than him were... Holzer, Kostka & O'Byrne - Most of these defenceman won't make the top 6 in most teams, let alone be a good defenceman, yet Phaneuf is?

GA has a lot to do with the defence too, we were one of the worst defensive teams in the league, with Phaneuf as our top defenceman, why doesn't he take any of the blame? He's our captain. The quality of competition doesn't make much of a difference when you're constantly a minus, maybe if he was a + player against top players, I'd agree. But the team as a whole was a +, top line is usually against top line, or a checking line (so more defensive help), and your team is a +. You shouldn't be a minus year after year.

Edit: How does Phaneuf having 3 points, and being a minus 6 in a 7 game series, as a Captain give you any hope that this guy will lead us to a cup?

You have to Remember there are 2 D that make a pairing and until Phaneufs partner is changed his pairing will always be beat regardless of how well he plays considering minor leaguers like Holzer and Kostka should be n where near the best players in the league.

Anyway his contract should be rougly the same, being a UFA negates any decline in play since his last contract was inked. Not to mention he would be recieving a reduction from 12% to 10% of the cap.

 

[Pinto]

Came for the lulz, left satisfied.

Pffftt. You didn't know that bad +/- = Terrible captain!?

 

[rumman]

I think Dion could fetch the big #1 centre the Leafs desperately need, I also think he'll get a gross overpayment like other stud defence men have gotten of late. This is why I'd be willing to trade Dion, the Leafs simply are not good enough to potentially let Dion walk, or overpay him. As sad as it sounds by low sell high is a sound way to improve your team. I'd replace him by trying my damnedest to acquire Tyler Myers from the Sabres, although he's had some growing pains, the kids going to be Chara 2.0 by the time the Leafs are ready to content for the cup.

 

[thewave]

5.5m - 6.5m but not 7-10m haha that's just crazy.

 

[PuckMagi]

phaneuf is good. we should keep him.

also, he is our captain

 

[Swervin81]

Phaneuf was playing more than half the season with scrubs like Kostka and Holzer on his pairing, of course he's gonna get hung out to dry.

 

[Leafidelity]

I'll never understand why people constantly want to trade our best defenseman when defense is the team weakness.

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

Edit: How does Phaneuf having 3 points, and being a minus 6 in a 7 game series, as a Captain give you any hope that this guy will lead us to a cup?

9 GP 2 G 4 A 6 PTS -6

Guess the d-man.

 

[In burke I trust*]

I would be content with an annual caphit of around 6 million. The fact that he is relied on so much and yet he still performs at a respectable level says a lot. Not to mention that he's our captain and he plays his heart out almost every night.

 

[nuck]

You have to Remember there are 2 D that make a pairing and until Phaneufs partner is changed his pairing will always be beat regardless of how well he plays considering minor leaguers like Holzer and Kostka should be n where near the best players in the league.

Anyway his contract should be rougly the same, being a UFA negates any decline in play since his last contract was inked. Not to mention he would be recieving a reduction from 12% to 10% of the cap.

He is a hard read. Led the league in giveaways, over such defensive studs as Byfuglien, Karlsson, Jack Johnson, Mike Green, Erhoff, and Wideman. All these guys logged similar or greater ice time. He was even worse in the playoffs. Also this was a stronger team this season than in years past.

But while I feel there is value in the plus minus stat, it really needs context to be useful. In the case of a #1 defenseman, no player is more reflective of the team around him, because he is most often put in a position to fail. I would say he runs around a bit too much and laying hits puts him out of position some times. That has always been his flaw. In the regular season, some bad choices resulted in a few more giveaways so he led the league rather than just being in the top 10. Inexperienced defense partners may have affected his giveaways a bit, and certainly they themselves made mistakes that dropped his plus minus. In the playoffs he ran around way too much, but I think that was on Carlyle's direction. He was told to play a certain way and the result was not as hoped.

I think he had a bit of an off year. He has played better in weaker lineups and Holzer and Kostka may have even instigated his trying to do too much. I would be cautious about relying on this season to evaluate his contract worth. He was never a shut down guy in Calgary but has been used in that role a lot as a Leaf. Pushing him farther into that niche because of a lack of other options may not be maximizing his abilities.

 

[The Apologist]

I would be content with an annual caphit of around 6 million. The fact that he is relied on so much and yet he still performs at a respectable level says a lot. Not to mention that he's our captain and he plays his heart out almost every night.

If that's respectable I'd hate to see what you would expect from a good defenseman.

 

[WTFMAN99]

6 mill a year on a long term deal.

 

[In burke I trust*]

If that's respectable I'd hate to see what you would expect from a good defenseman.

I'm pretty sure that a player who can log 25 min/night against the NHL's most capable goal scorers while anchoring the penalty kill and power play is the definition of a good defenseman. In the open market, 6 million is what it's going to take and I don't have a problem with that... he's without a doubt our best all-around defenseman.

 

[Diatomic]

Sign him to a very nice long-term deal with a respectable cap hit

then

Trade him for a bundle of picks/prospects when age catches up with him.