Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[Guadana]

And I can post examples of teams with good goaltending who are currently up in their playoff series as well. Or bad teams who made the playoffs due in large part to good goaltendings (see the Isles). Situations vary from team to team.

But NJ has seen bad goal tending play a significant role in bad results in all but one of the last however many years.

Yeah, because goalies dont matter after they are average. They can be out of playoff, they can be in the Stanley Cup final. Teams without depth and structure cant win with or without great goaltending.
Bad goaltending fixing by average goaltending, not only by the most expensive aged goaltending. Bad game fixing by coaching and depth, not by the most expensive aged goaltending.

 

[Nocashstyle]

Nope. Because its the same team that made stupid pick by their 10OA. They are managing badly. Even after changings they hired Travis Green for 4 years. God, I hope they will work somehow, I like some of those players. Good scouts will find good player by 10th pick on this draft, good management will not trade 10OA for "need now".

You can’t guarantee that. We all liked Tyson Jost around here at the time. Wouldn’t it be great to reject a trade for a need at the expense of keeping Tyson Jost?

Again, I’m not advocating for trading the pick at any cost. But we can’t keep thinking that needs are going to be filled purely via drafting. At a certain point, you need to look at other avenues. The core is solidified. There are glaring needs elsewhere that need to be addressed. If a deal is there, you make it.

Window is not open... that's the mistake.

We were tied with Calgary and Seattle in points this season. We were closer to the bottom 5 than we were to a playoff spot. And you believe the "window is open"?

If you think really hard, maybe you could consider some additional context to this season’s results.

 

[SansaStark]

Thinking a 10th overall is jus a trading chip assumes this team is close to being Cup competitive...

Nothing can be further from the truth.

couldn’t be in more agreement. If you’re watching the playoffs you’d easily realize we are not close. Factoring in the previous years results are fools gold to me at this point. This isn’t the 2022-23 team and that formula isn’t one you want to replicate either unless you want to get smoked by Carolina again

the #10 should be moved only for a legit center or be packaged with Bahl or Siegs for a LD. No goalie is worth that pick right now.
And considering the field of available players I’d rather just keep the pick at this point.
Dawson, Luke and Simon will all need deals soon and we’ll need cost control in our “new” possible contention window.

 

[devilsblood]

I don’t think we’ll get anywhere close to that value. Ty Smith’s value came from a good offensive season and overall numbers. And frankly I think Ty Smith just had more potential than Holtz does.

Yeah, no.

Holtz can produce offense, and as a winger you can hide him a bit on D.

Smith is a d-man who can't defend, and also didn't bring much offense.

 

[Rhodes 81]

Has he made that big of gains though? He’s still a shit skater, and can’t win a battle to save his life.

He’s got two things. Pretty good offensive mind and a good one dimensional shot that he can only get off in a few specific scenarios when it’s right in his wheelhouse. Thats it and that’s not enough to be an impactful NHL player let alone a good top 6 forward.

Earlier in the year he was making good forechecking plays and getting into the right spots defensively more often than not. Winning battles is something that most players will improve over time so I'm not that worried. He was also moving quicker than he had before (dreaded "best shape of his life" candidate).

Basically all of that eroded as the year went on. I'm not going to call it an effort thing because anyone that made the NHL has already put more effort into this than I will ever be capable of putting into anything. But the guys that have long careers as role players are absolute freaks in being able to bring it every night. He's got to sustain it over a season.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

Dawson doesn't deserve any big $$ contract based on his play this past season. He should get a reasonable bridge deal and thats it.

Again, please find me the contending team (or close to contending) team that doesn't use a chunk of their cap space because they may need it in 2-3 years. That isn't a thing that happens. Keep in mind the cap is set to explode over the next few years. The projection is up around $92 million within 2 years. That is an extra ~$10 million right there, not accounting for other players that are traded or aren't re-signed.

 

[devilsblood]

Yeah, because goalies dont matter after they are average. They can be out of playoff, they can be in the Stanley Cup final. Teams without depth and structure cant win with or without great goaltending.
Bad goaltending fixing by average goaltending, not only by the most expensive aged goaltending. Bad game fixing by coaching and depth, not by the most expensive aged goaltending.

What's this? Lost in translation perhaps?

 

[Rhodes 81]

If you're thinking Fitz is going to look at his roster and start making moves for 3-4 years from now instead of trying to win while Hischier, Bratt, and Meier are all in their primes, you're basically asking him to go ahead and fire himself. That's just not going to happen. I'd rather think about things that legitimately might happen than scenarios where we need to turn into sellers again.

 

[Guadana]

What's this? Lost in translation perhaps?

Nope I didnt. Vancouver shotout Nashville with their third goalie. If goalies are average or better - its a competition of teams, not goalies. We dont need aged expensive goalie to compete, we need depth and structure. Wee need average goalie who can be above the water.

 

[devilsblood]

Earlier in the year he was making good forechecking plays and getting into the right spots defensively more often than not. Winning battles is something that most players will improve over time so I'm not that worried. He was also moving quicker than he had before (dreaded "best shape of his life" candidate).

Basically all of that eroded as the year went on. I'm not going to call it an effort thing because anyone that made the NHL has already put more effort into this than I will ever be capable of putting into anything. But the guys that have long careers as role players are absolute freaks in being able to bring it every night. He's got to sustain it over a season.

Was he though? I know he wast noticeably skating around on the forecheck, which was a step in the right direction, but how often did it actually result in a change of possession?

I still have hopes he can make the next step but when we talk about soft players, not just in terms of physicality, but also winning puck battles, he's about as soft as it gets.

 

[JimEIV]

If you think really hard, maybe you could consider some additional context to this season’s results.

Hah! Nobody here wants context.... because if you did then you'd have to face the fact that this team made the playoffs once in 6 years...

finished in the bottom 5 most of the other years....they have 3 children on defense and no real pipeline to speak of, no goaltender, no physical prowess whatsoever, a lack of centers throughout the organization and a shortage of 3 or 4 forwards with the big club....and people think this team is close?

You don't want context....you want to use injuries to excuse what has been happening for a long time.

 

[Guadana]

You can’t guarantee that. We all liked Tyson Jost around here at the time. Wouldn’t it be great to reject a trade for a need at the expense of keeping Tyson Jost?

Again, I’m not advocating for trading the pick at any cost. But we can’t keep thinking that needs are going to be filled purely via drafting. At a certain point, you need to look at other avenues. The core is solidified. There are glaring needs elsewhere that need to be addressed. If a deal is there, you make it.



If you think really hard, maybe you could consider some additional context to this season’s results.

Who we? We dont need to trade pick in the draft full of nhl talent to fill the needs. There are cheaper trade market and free market to feel the needs. Draft is for finding top talents for long time.

If you can find me top talent for 7 years like Kings did with Fiala - im okay to make this type of a trade.

 

[Rhodes 81]

What if we start trading all of our 2nds again instead?

 

[devilsblood]

Nope I didnt. Vancouver shotout Nashville with their third goalie. If goalies are average or better - its a competition of teams, not goalies. We dont need aged expensive goalie to compete, we need depth and structure. Wee need average goalie who can be above the water.

Multiple things going on here.

1)yes we need an (at least) average goalie, but we still need to acquire said goalie.

2)bad vs average vs good goaltending is one topic of discussion. Aged and expensive is another.

3) Rags are going to beat a better team on the back of superior goal tending.

All this said, I've been a proponent of Allen and Kahk going into next season. Or at least I have been open to the option.

Fitz doesn't seem to into the idea though.

 

[Captain3rdLine]

Yeah, no.

Holtz can produce offense, and as a winger you can hide him a bit on D.

Smith is a d-man who can't defend, and also didn't bring much offense.

No to what? Holtz hasn’t produced offense and Smith had produced more as a dman at that point.

Holtz has shown very little at the NHL level and clearly lacks the offensive skillset. As I said in a previous post he’s got a decent offensive mind and a pretty good but one-dimensional shot that he rarely gets off. Other than that he doesn’t bring much and is a shitty skater and loses battles.

Earlier in the year he was making good forechecking plays and getting into the right spots defensively more often than not. Winning battles is something that most players will improve over time so I'm not that worried. He was also moving quicker than he had before (dreaded "best shape of his life" candidate).

Basically all of that eroded as the year went on. I'm not going to call it an effort thing because anyone that made the NHL has already put more effort into this than I will ever be capable of putting into anything. But the guys that have long careers as role players are absolute freaks in being able to bring it every night. He's got to sustain it over a season.

Even at his best he wasn’t that good. But anyone in the NHL on their best nights is gonna look pretty good. At the end of the day he’s just not good enough IMO and I’m not sure what makes you think he’s gonna win more battles if he doesn’t have the puck skill or strength to do so.

 

[devilsblood]

No to what? Holtz hasn’t produced offense and Smith had produced more as a dman at that point.

Holtz has shown very little at the NHL level and clearly lacks the offensive skillset. As I said in a previous post he’s got a decent offensive mind and a pretty good but one-dimensional shot that he rarely gets off. Other than that he doesn’t bring much and is a shitty skater and loses battles.

He produced quite well this season, just in very limited minutes.

The limited minutes are justified given his weak overall game, but the offensive ability looks to be there.

Smith gave limited offense and lousy D. Unplayable combo as a defenseman.

 

[Cheddabombs]

What if we start trading all of our 2nds again instead?

Think we can get Mueller for a few 2nds?

 

[Captain3rdLine]

He produced quite well this season, just in very limited minutes.

The limited minutes are justified given his weak overall game, but the offensive ability looks to be there.

Smith gave limited offense and lousy D. Unplayable combo as a defenseman.

The offensive ability does not remotely look to be there to me. He’s has very little to offer.

Smith initially gave quite a bit of offense. Which is why he had trade value.

 

[Guadana]

Multiple things going on here.

1)yes we need an (at least) average goalie, but we still need to acquire said goalie.

2)bad vs average vs good goaltending is one topic of discussion. Aged and expensive is another.

3) Rags are going to beat a better team on the back of superior goal tending.

All this said, I've been a proponent of Allen and Kahk going into next season. Or at least I have been open to the option.

Fitz doesn't seem to into the idea though.

1 and 2 have nothing with 10 OA.
Shestyorkin is young enough, under team control, their home grown talent, still cant win before they grow some of their talent and structure their game. You are again trying to use one specific example, Shestyorkin is very good, rangers are doing things, Nashville with Saros dont, Markstrom is off, Hellebyuck is doing nothing in the play-off, Vasilevsky was 3 time finalist, now he is off. BECAUSE his team lost of their depth. Because Vancouver with their third goalie is more talented team. Because Calgary is toilet paper. Because Jets are playin on the shoulders of Hellebyuck and when Colorado is loading him, they cant do shift after shift on the good level to win the game. Because Shestyorkin is playing behind experienced but still young enough team with very good depth and better structure they played before.

Daccord stands on his head this season. Freaking massive performance. But Seattle will pick with us with the same amount of points.

Goalies should be average. Colorado are playing with below average goaltending, Toronto, Hurricanes, Tampa this season, Dallas had average goaltending this season overall. Seattle, Blues, Jets - above average goaltending this season.


Goalies are not as important as depth and structure. And as talent. Devils would be play off team this year if they had more healthy roster this year. Vanecek had 17-9-3 this season. Walking goalie disaster.

 

[Devils731]

The offensive ability does not remotely look to be there to me. He’s has very little to offer.

Smith initially gave quite a bit of offense. Which is why he had trade value.

Holtz was one of the best goal scorers per minute in the league at even strength, playing most of his time with offensively challenged players.

You’re acting like he gots lots of time and couldn’t score in it when reality is he got little time and scored a bunch in it.

 

[Triumph]

Yeah, Holtz brings some offense for sure, the issue is that he doesn't bring anything else, and it's really hard for that to work out unless the offense is spectacular. It makes sense to me that Sweden wouldn't take him on their WC roster because they already have Victor Olofsson, and why take Holtz to play him on the 4th line/healthy scratch him.

Also I think guys with great shots and mediocre/bad skating 'look' worse than the reverse type of player (e.g. Miles Wood) because Holtz scored multiple goals that very few NHLers could've scored on but he's still having most of his shots on goal saved like everyone else.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

Schmid and Daws in goal if we don't sign or trade for another goalie. Though it's doubtful they are on the ope ing night roster as Fitz doesn't want a repeat of last year.

On defense Vilen and Misyul will probably try to battle out the spot as a #7 Dman I suppose. Casey will need AHL time , no way he sits in tbe press box when he can be playing 20 plus minutes a night in Utica.

On offense if love to see Halonen get a shot at making the team. I'd say Nolan Foote could very well get a spot out of camp.

I guess we're couple seasons away from Casey, Ham, and Grits being full-time...which hopefully should help a lot. Need some temp wingers to fill in till then.

 

[guitarguyvic]

It sucks that in retrospect, it would have been better to have traded Holtz instead of Zetterlund.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

We really don't know what Mercer is. Was 27 goals an aberration? Are his rookie year and this year more what we should expect?

My hope for him was to be our in-house Palat. He just looks like a playoff player to me. It's too early to say if he is that though. He didn't look too great in his 1st playoffs, but it was his 1st.

 

[PKs Broken Stick]

Georgiev doesnt hurt Colorado

He doesn't hurt Colorado because they're not mental babies. If he was here, the results would be pathetic.