Devils team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - offseason part I

[Guadana]

You're looking for positive in utter disaster...good for you on being positive....but the actual results don't match the positivity.

meh. goalies, injuries, lack of parts of the game. Some parts are good, team lost the play off chances only before 3 games until the end. 10 points is nothing for a team with injuries and worst goaltending.

So yeah, people can be happy about result of the core and quite good first impression from two rookie defensemen - to many rookie defensemen for potential play off team.

 

[Bleedred]

Okay, I can't find the talk about it, but I know it was pages back. Also in the OOT thread.

The problem with DeBoer as coach if he were to be fired by Dallas is I think we're still just a little too young for him, but just by barely.

The teams that hire DeBoer (other than Florida, it was his first job in the league) are teams where their best players are usually older. Just a little bit older than our best players.

I've already been over the ages of some of those Dallas guys ad nauseum. Our best players were like 27-28 (Kovalchuk, Parise) when he was hired here, but we also had some older guys (Elias) who were still really good.

When he got to the Sharks, Pavelski was already 31, Burns was already 30. Thornton and Marleau were like 36. Couture was only 26. Hertl was just 21 or 22.

The best players in Vegas were probably in their late 20s when he took over there.

Our best players are 25 and younger.

So are Dallas's, but they have a whole lot of older players that have been around a long time.

It would be interesting to see how he would approach a speedier team. Outside of Vegas I guess? He hasn't had at all a speedy team at the NHL level.

 

[JimEIV]

meh. goalies, injuries, lack of parts of the game. Some parts are good, team lost the play off chances only before 3 games until the end. 10 points is nothing for a team with injuries and worst goaltending.

So yeah, people can be happy about result of the core and quite good first impression from two rookie defensemen - to many rookie defensemen for potential play off team.

Injury talk is a cover up so no will notice that we traded all, and I mean All of our depth for Meier and Bratt's salary and to make room for the young defenders....

The injuries weren't the problem it was the lack of depth that left us unable to sustain ANY injuries that was the problem.

And I don't see how that gets better next year ...you can't replace all that depth in an off season....we need to make sacrifices to the hockey gods for health and prosperity because as it is this team is so shallow it can't sustain any injuries to key players.

 

[My3Sons]

You're looking for positives in the face of utter disaster...good for you on being positive....but the actual results don't match the positivity.

I'm just thinking about where to start next season. This year sucked and everything and everyone played a role in that but you can't change the past. The core players are the same ones who were on a very good team the year before. So to me the issue is less with them and more with the lost support players who were obviously not replaced for this season. I'd say the drop off from Wood to Tierney is a bigger deal than guys like Hischier and Bratt and even Jack in his limited games doing more or less what they did the year prior.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

Injury talk is a cover up so no will notice that we traded all, and I mean All of our depth for Meier and Bratt's salary and to make room for the young defenders....

The injuries weren't the problem it was the lack of depth that left us unable to sustain ANY injuries that was the problem.

And I don't see how that gets better next year ...you can't replace all that depth in an off season....we need to make sacrifices to the hockey gods for health and prosperity because as it is this team is so shallow it can't sustain any injuries to key players.

Totally. Losing Damon Severson and Miles Wood was a bigger deal than missing Dougie Hamilton for the entire season, every part of Timo’s body being broken for more than half the season, and Jack Hughes playing without a shoulder.

The downgrade from Tomas Tatar to Tyler Toffoli was just such a blow. Ryan Graves, the guy already getting run out of town in Pittsburgh, was just so much better than Luke Hughes too. Nemec stinks too.

 

[Goptor]

Okay, I can't find the talk about it, but I know it was pages back. Also in the OOT thread.

The problem with DeBoer as coach if he were to be fired by Dallas is I think we're still just a little too young for him, but just by barely.

The teams that hire DeBoer (other than Florida, it was his first job in the league) are teams where their best players are usually older. Just a little bit older than our best players.

I've already been over the ages of some of those Dallas guys ad nauseum. Our best players were like 27-28 (Kovalchuk, Parise) when he was hired here, but we also had some older guys (Elias) who were still really good.

When he got to the Sharks, Pavelski was already 31, Burns was already 30. Thornton and Marleau were like 36. Couture was only 26. Hertl was just 21 or 22.

The best players in Vegas were probably in their late 20s when he took over there.

Our best players are 25 and younger.

So are Dallas's, but they have a whole lot of older players that have been around a long time.

It would be interesting to see how he would approach a speedier team. Outside of Vegas I guess? He hasn't had at all a speedy team at the NHL level.

My only concern with DeBoer is that he expects players to be able to pick up his systems on their own.
We have a bunch of young guys who have only ever played in Ruff's wacky system. Are they going to be able to transition easily?

Having bad flashbacks of DeBoer running the most complicated system in the league and calling his players stupid for not being able to play it.

 

[My3Sons]

Totally. Losing Damon Severson and Miles Wood was a bigger deal than missing Dougie Hamilton for the entire season, every part of Timo’s body being broken for more than half the season, and Jack Hughes playing without a shoulder.

The downgrade from Tomas Tatar to Tyler Toffoli was just such a blow. Ryan Graves, the guy already getting run out of town in Pittsburgh, was just so much better than Luke Hughes too. Nemec stinks too.

I think there is a point though that this year's team had AHL guys that were pressed into duty. Tierney, Wilman, Halonen, etc. Shane Bowers played 8 games this season. Clearly injuries derailed the Devils as did losing Dr. Evil and then Siegs and Marino struggling for whatever reasons. The goalies didn't help but as shown in some earlier posts the team wasn't appreciably better this season when the goalies played well. Hopefully next season the callups are guys like Foote and Clarke and other prospects rather than dead end guys.

 

[Guadana]

Injury talk is a cover up so no will notice that we traded all, and I mean All of our depth for Meier and Bratt's salary and to make room for the young defenders....

The injuries weren't the problem it was the lack of depth that left us unable to sustain ANY injuries that was the problem.

And I don't see how that gets better next year ...you can't replace all that depth in an off season....we need to make sacrifices to the hockey gods for health and prosperity because as it is this team is so shallow it can't sustain any injuries to key players.

Injuries are the problem. You can deny it but its not true. Devils were unbalanced but productive team. After one injury goes to another, we left as depth as shape. Vegas missed playoff because of injury, they won SC next year. Im not telling Devils will win SC, Im not telling they will repeat previous season, but they will be play off team if they will not be so injured as they were this year. Like it or not Hamilton was huge part of 6 on 5 game, as he was huge part of salary cap. More healthy Timo and more injured Timo are two different players.
It is what it. If they will just be healthier - they will be play off team. If they will fix some of their issue - one more LD who can play solid defensive minutes against top 6 - not like Bahl did this year, not like Siegs did this year, 3rd line center and a couple of complimentary forecheckers - they will be contenders.

Devils have cap space for next year, Fitz will fix that. It is much more important how.

again - Losing Graves, Severson and Hamilton and replace them by Luke and Simon in their actual shape is a step back. Both will make step forward, more likely Dougie will be healthier. And Fitz should find good top-4 LD.

 

[JimEIV]

I think there is a point though that this year's team had AHL guys that were pressed into duty. Tierney, Wilman, Halonen, etc. Shane Bowers played 8 games this season. Clearly injuries derailed the Devils as did losing Dr. Evil and then Siegs and Marino struggling for whatever reasons. The goalies didn't help but as shown in some earlier posts the team wasn't appreciably better this season when the goalies played well. Hopefully next season the callups are guys like Foote and Clarke and other prospects rather than dead end guys.

Clarke and Foote? As opposed to Sharangovich, Zetterlund Boqvist?

In 2023 Marino missed 18 games nobody noticed. Severson slotted in seamlessly.

Tatar played all 82 in 2023

Sharangovich played 75 games

Boqvist 70 games

Zetterlund 45 but had 20 points in those
45 games

Wood played 76 games and had 13 goals

We don't have anything like that today.

Dougie goes down and you're replacing him with a 19 year old with Zero games of NHL experience and we are going to sit here and make believe that it was the injury and not the depth? Gimme a break.

 

[britdevil]

Pssssssssst

 

[Billdo]

Offseason is fun here.

 

[Rhodes 81]

Totally. Losing Damon Severson and Miles Wood was a bigger deal than missing Dougie Hamilton for the entire season, every part of Timo’s body being broken for more than half the season, and Jack Hughes playing without a shoulder.

The downgrade from Tomas Tatar to Tyler Toffoli was just such a blow. Ryan Graves, the guy already getting run out of town in Pittsburgh, was just so much better than Luke Hughes too. Nemec stinks too.

My thoughts on all of this is somewhere in the middle. I think this year's team with last year's injury luck makes the playoffs, but it's still a worse team in the end. We still ice a lot of Tierney, a lot of Smith, a lot of dead end guys that shouldn't be getting NHL time instead of healthy scratching Boqvist and Holtz and Sharangovich because of how deep we were.

You're ignoring the roles they are capable of playing too much. Luke Hughes doe not replace Severson and Graves' PK minutes. I was all for letting Wood walk over giving him the contract he got, but he definitely has more positive impact in more games than Max Willman or Chris Tierney had for us this year. Toffoli is a better player than Tatar, but Tatar was uniquely skilled to play very well with Hischier. Those two were one of the best defensive pairs among forwards in the NHL last year while regularly matching the opposing top line. Palat was the replacement and simply wasn't as effective, even if I like Palat as a player. The overall bottom six depth fell off a cliff this year and was equally as noticeable when everyone was hurt as to when they were healthy. We got straight nothing out of two lines every game basically all year.

Nemec and Hughes being good doesn't mean they filled the same roles the guys they're replacing filled, and those guys being not as good on their new teams is meaningless compared to how they played on ours. It's not one or the other with injuries or missing depth, it was the combination of both. Don't insult me by telling me I can't think Severson or Tatar or even Wood or Boqvist was a loss just because Dougie and Jack got hurt.

 

[McDuffz88]

Sure seems like a lot to give up.

You're right. Giving up 10OA, Mercer and Casey is a lot to give up. But that's what you need to offer to land a player like Tkachuk. Tkachuk isn't a dime a dozen player. He's a league rarity and you don't get that by low balling. This isn't a Meier situation. Meier had his team by the throat. It was give him 10 mill and then he was going to walk. They had little to no leverage. Brady is already locked up for a few years. They don't have to trade Brady at all if they don't get a good offer.

 

[NJDevs26]

You're right. Giving up 10OA, Mercer and Casey is a lot to give up. But that's what you need to offer to land a player like Tkachuk. Tkachuk isn't a dime a dozen player. He's a league rarity and you don't get that by low balling. This isn't a Meier situation. Meier had his team by the throat. It was give him 10 mill and then he was going to walk. They had little to no leverage. Brady is already locked up for a few years. They don't have to trade Brady at all if they don't get a good offer.

Plus let's be honest, I think the #10 OA and Holtz are getting overvalued here, while Casey is probably undervalued by the rest of the league. I don't think he'd trade Mercer but he's probably still got a ton of value if it came to it.

 

[JimEIV]

My thoughts on all of this is somewhere in the middle. I think this year's team with last year's injury luck makes the playoffs, but it's still a worse team in the end. We still ice a lot of Tierney, a lot of Smith, a lot of dead end guys that shouldn't be getting NHL time instead of healthy scratching Boqvist and Holtz and Sharangovich because of how deep we were.

You're ignoring the roles they are capable of playing too much. Luke Hughes doe not replace Severson and Graves' PK minutes. I was all for letting Wood walk over giving him the contract he got, but he definitely has more positive impact in more games than Max Willman or Chris Tierney had for us this year. Toffoli is a better player than Tatar, but Tatar was uniquely skilled to play very well with Hischier. Those two were one of the best defensive pairs among forwards in the NHL last year while regularly matching the opposing top line. Palat was the replacement and simply wasn't as effective, even if I like Palat as a player. The overall bottom six depth fell off a cliff this year and was equally as noticeable when everyone was hurt as to when they were healthy. We got straight nothing out of two lines every game basically all year.

Nemec and Hughes being good doesn't mean they filled the same roles the guys they're replacing filled, and those guys being not as good on their new teams is meaningless compared to how they played on ours. It's not one or the other with injuries or missing depth, it was the combination of both. Don't insult me by telling me I can't think Severson or Tatar or even Wood or Boqvist was a loss just because Dougie and Jack got hurt.

You don't sound in the middle at all.

 

[Rhodes 81]

You don't sound in the middle at all.

The injuries were a big problem made bigger because of the loss of depth. The injuries would have been a problem to last year's team, too, but they would have handled it better. If the argument is depth is the whole problem or injuries were the whole problem, the answer is in the middle. As it is every time someone implies X is the whole problem.

 

[Billdo]

The elephant in the room is the "core" being "soft" with little to no idea on how to address that. Adding bottom 6 doesn't help, allegedly, so we're kind of stuck. Seeing the word rebuild though is kind of mind boggling at this point.

Having said that, I was very vocal about losing Severson being an issue. Ppl were thrilled he was gone but I think his departure was a pretty big deal. There was no way to keep him though.

 

[MartyOwns]

honestly, what teams have the depth to overcome injuries to their best players simultaneously? we don't have a hamilton clone in the system? we don't have 1 & 2C replacement guys for hughes/nico waiting in the wings?! wE NeEd a FuLL rEbUiLd!!!

 

[Bleedred]

The downgrade from Tomas Tatar to Tyler Toffoli was just such a blow.

He's one of the most overrated Devils in the last few years, at least by a small sect of the fanbase.

We really missed his 30 points this year that he was on pace for. And his 30 points in 76 games in 21-22. That's not who he really is at this point. He's the almost 50 point player he was last year, just once out of the last 3 years.

I wouldn't be surprised if he's played his last game in the NHL.

The contract he got this past September (about 70 days into free agency) sure smelled like one of those, combined with the season he just had. He's also gonna be 34. Not exactly a kid in this league.

For what it's worth, I thought he was very good for us in 22-23. I just think it was not really indicative of what kind of player he is at this point. 21-22 and 23-24 were probably more like it.

 

[NJDevs26]

They did not 'pay for Timo and Bratt's contracts' by gutting their depth, that's oversimplistic at best. Timo and Bratt made $11.45 million last year combined and this year their cap hit is $16.6 million. They basically paid for that $5 million difference with Severson and Graves leaving, which was kind of inevitable regardless of whether Timo/Bratt stayed or not. You don't sign two middling guys long-term when you have two potential studs just about ready to play.

They also added money trading Shara for Toffoli, a move that took away from the bottom six to strengthen the top six (which essentially dealing off Zetterlund in the Timo trade did as well). Boqvist leaving and being replaced by Nosek - who himself was injured and/or ineffective for a good chunk of the season - wasn't a money issue. McLeod definitely had nothing to do with skimping pennies. Even Tatar was a term issue, not a money issue per se though his leaving probably cleared the way for the Toffoli trade.

All cap teams and win-now teams will eventually have to skimp in their depth long-term anyway, you're not going to be able to scratch 30-goal guys forever and try to maintain a win-now mentality. You have to replace depth with younger guys or replace them by trading draft picks. Foote could have been a nice depth piece this year on paper, but again...injuries.

 

[Bleedred]

My thoughts on all of this is somewhere in the middle. I think this year's team with last year's injury luck makes the playoffs, but it's still a worse team in the end. We still ice a lot of Tierney, a lot of Smith, a lot of dead end guys that shouldn't be getting NHL time instead of healthy scratching Boqvist and Holtz and Sharangovich because of how deep we were.

You're ignoring the roles they are capable of playing too much. Luke Hughes doe not replace Severson and Graves' PK minutes. I was all for letting Wood walk over giving him the contract he got, but he definitely has more positive impact in more games than Max Willman or Chris Tierney had for us this year. Toffoli is a better player than Tatar, but Tatar was uniquely skilled to play very well with Hischier. Those two were one of the best defensive pairs among forwards in the NHL last year while regularly matching the opposing top line. Palat was the replacement and simply wasn't as effective, even if I like Palat as a player. The overall bottom six depth fell off a cliff this year and was equally as noticeable when everyone was hurt as to when they were healthy. We got straight nothing out of two lines every game basically all year.

Nemec and Hughes being good doesn't mean they filled the same roles the guys they're replacing filled, and those guys being not as good on their new teams is meaningless compared to how they played on ours. It's not one or the other with injuries or missing depth, it was the combination of both. Don't insult me by telling me I can't think Severson or Tatar or even Wood or Boqvist was a loss just because Dougie and Jack got hurt.

I agree with this also. I agree with both sides of this argument to a point.

I think we've seen the last of guys like Willman, Tierney and Smith. In a healthier year, probably only one of Willman or Tierney even see games with us and in a super healthy year neither of them do. Smith was relegated to the 7th defenseman by February of 2023, and he played almost the entirety of this season except for when he missed time with injury.

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

My thoughts on all of this is somewhere in the middle. I think this year's team with last year's injury luck makes the playoffs, but it's still a worse team in the end. We still ice a lot of Tierney, a lot of Smith, a lot of dead end guys that shouldn't be getting NHL time instead of healthy scratching Boqvist and Holtz and Sharangovich because of how deep we were.

You're ignoring the roles they are capable of playing too much. Luke Hughes doe not replace Severson and Graves' PK minutes. I was all for letting Wood walk over giving him the contract he got, but he definitely has more positive impact in more games than Max Willman or Chris Tierney had for us this year. Toffoli is a better player than Tatar, but Tatar was uniquely skilled to play very well with Hischier. Those two were one of the best defensive pairs among forwards in the NHL last year while regularly matching the opposing top line. Palat was the replacement and simply wasn't as effective, even if I like Palat as a player. The overall bottom six depth fell off a cliff this year and was equally as noticeable when everyone was hurt as to when they were healthy. We got straight nothing out of two lines every game basically all year.

Nemec and Hughes being good doesn't mean they filled the same roles the guys they're replacing filled, and those guys being not as good on their new teams is meaningless compared to how they played on ours. It's not one or the other with injuries or missing depth, it was the combination of both. Don't insult me by telling me I can't think Severson or Tatar or even Wood or Boqvist was a loss just because Dougie and Jack got hurt.

Sure, most of that has been gone over throughout the year. No interest in getting into those subtleties with the user I’m responding to though.

 

[JimEIV]

The injuries were a big problem made bigger because of the loss of depth. The injuries would have been a problem to last year's team, too, but they would have handled it better. If the argument is depth is the whole problem or injuries were the whole problem, the answer is in the middle. As it is every time someone implies X is the whole problem.

I personally don't think that's the best way to frame the argument... injuries vs depth. The argument is really why did this team miss the playoffs in a very weak Eastern Conference.

Does this team miss the playoffs with the depth we had in 2023? I don't think so....is this team the 10th worst team in the league with the depth we had in 2023? Again I don't think it's anywhere near as bad.

Injuries are always going to be an issue. 2023 was much more of an anomaly than this year as far as injuries are concerned.

Losing Dougie was big but there was literally nothing to fill the gap. Same throughout the lineup.

I think this becomes more of a team building question than an injury vs depth argument.

We made the choice to let a bunch of players go to pay Meier and Bratt...there really is no way around that.

To forgo the depth was a well known obvious risk before a single puck was dropped.

Meier was extremely costly. First there was the trade of a million pieces then the house cleaning to pay his salary....we lost bad in year 1 of this investment.

And I think we lost pretty badly in the Toffolli trade too.

 

[Bleedred]

Pssssssssst

View attachment 859553

While I would have been happy to wave goodbye to Ruff last week, having Travis Green for 21 games was such a disaster that I wanted to beg Lindy to come back and would have been all for fans signing a waiver to not chant any disparaging about Lindy at least until the season finale or they get kicked out.

I won't be happy until we know this trash pale and embarrassment of a coach is gone and outta here.

Fitz better hire a rookie if it comes down to that or Green. He can acquire Saros or Markstrom, whoever, but as the two new goalies showed under Green, we'll be Vancouver during the Markstrom/Green years if he's back.

We had above league average goaltending and were still 4 games under NHL.500 under this CLOWN.

I know for sure his coaching made us worse. It made Vancouver worse too.

Green would be the perfect coach in San Jose. They may be able to go back to back sub-50 point seasons.

 

[NJDevs26]

I honestly sometimes wonder where certain people think we'd have finished if Fitz pulled a Shero circa 2018 and just ran it back with the same-ish team expecting the same results? With Graves struggling as much as he did this year, Dougie still getting hurt, Siegs being in and out the D likely wouldn't have been great regardless even with Severson (who also wasn't great himself this year). It wouldn't have even been realistic to expect Graves or Severson to come back unless you really capped out and then someone else would have been traded.

Up front, they could have easily had all of Shara, Tatar and Boqvist come back but you'd still have the same issue of losing McLeod in-season and Shara likely wouldn't have been as productive (or given as much icetime) as Toffoli. Maybe Shara and Tatar combined might have given you as much production as Toffoli which would have saved you a pick and some age but you'd still be in the same spot this year.

And even though I loathe this argument...you did also go from Brunette to Green as Lindy's right hand (and Fitz's guy) which was unavoidable, I'm sure that mattered some. Not thirty points' worth for sure, but definitely some.