Devils 2021 team discussion (news, notes and speculation) - part XXVIII

[NJDevs26]

Still no one wants to acknowledge that Colorado was dog shit in 09 and drafted 3rd overall followed by a 2nd overall in 11 while being largely uncompetitive until 19.

Your definition of largely non competitive is highly questionable considering they had 112, 95 and 90 point seasons three of the five years before 2019.

 

[TheDuke93]

Your definition of largely non competitive is highly questionable considering they had 112, 95 and 90 point seasons three of the five years before 2019.

So they finished out side of the playoffs while having MacKinnon, Landeskog, Duchene and O'Reilly for most of those season. Between 16-20 on average and 1 season dead last. This was 6 years after drafting top 3 for the first time while still having some good hold overs from the prior years. Yes based on what most peoples expectations appear to be I would say that should be considered uncompetitive according to most of the doom and gloom crowd. I am not saying you are in there.

 

[The Devil In I]

Well we agree to dissagree. Fleury probably should be in HOF but he's no Roy or Brodeur. And if we talk generational Backstrom certanly isn't as good as Crosby or McDavid for example - isn't that term reserved for those kind of guys?

Backstrom will be very close to 1000 points before turning 34 and will likely play for another 4-5 years. There's a decent chance he could break 1300 career points which would put him 37th all time. I'm sure it'd look even better for him if you adjusted the top scorers all time for the scoring level of their era. Since he said "borderline generational" I think that's a pretty fair assessment.

 

[Zajacs Bowl Cut]

the Avs are the best comparable to where we should aspire to be.

from 2010-2017 (seven seasons), they made the playoffs once, lost in the first round. Sound familiar?

2009- Duchene 3rd overall
2011- Landeskog 2nd overall
2013- MacKinnon 1st overall
2015- Rantanen 10th overall
2016- Jost 10th overall
2017- Makar 4th overall (via trade of Duchene)

if you don't see the similarities....I don't know what to tell you.

 

[TheDuke93]

the Avs are the best comparable to where we should aspire to be.

from 2010-2017 (seven seasons), they made the playoffs once, lost in the first round. Sound familiar?

2009- Duchene 3rd overall
2011- Landeskog 2nd overall
2013- MacKinnon 1st overall
2015- Rantanen 10th overall
2016- Jost 10th overall
2017- Makar 4th overall (via trade of Duchene)

if you don't see the similarities....I don't know what to tell you.

Crazy isn't it.

 

[Unknown Caller]

what about Keith (2002) and Seabrook (2003) for Chicago?

Pittsburgh picked 1st in 2003 (MAF), 2nd in 2004 (Malkin), 1st in 2005 (Crosby), 2nd in 2006 (Staal). That is NOT comparable to what the Devils have had.

the Devils were in the playoffs in 2018, which was year 3 of the rebuild technically...or did you forget that already.....?

Not only Keith and Seabrook, but Nik Hjalmarsson (2005), Dustin Byfuglien (2003), Corey Crawford (2003), Cam Barker (2004 3rd overall bust), Andrew Ladd (acquired via trade in 2007 for Tuomo Ruutu who was a top 10 pick in 2001), and Patrick Sharp.

That also leaves out homegrown guys who played big supporting roles like Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Troy Brouwer, etc.

They missed the playoffs multiple seasons and had awful teams with all of those guys while they were young and developing. They also went on to put up 104 points and made the playoffs with that group without adding any major pieces outside of the organization.

 

[TheDuke93]

Not only Keith and Seabrook, but Nik Hjalmarsson (2005), Dustin Byfuglien (2003), Corey Crawford (2003), Cam Barker (2004 3rd overall bust), Andrew Ladd (acquired via trade in 2007 for Tuomo Ruutu who was a top 10 pick in 2001), and Patrick Sharp.

That also leaves out homegrown guys who played big supporting roles like Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Troy Brouwer, etc.

They missed the playoffs multiple seasons and had awful teams with all of those guys while they were young and developing. They also went on to put up 104 points and made the playoffs with that group without adding any major pieces outside of the organization.

That doesn't fit the M.O. shhhhhhhhh.

 

[Nocashstyle]

I think the narrative that is missing around those name dropping teams as examples of “it takes time,” is that those team’s young building blocks very quickly established beyond a reasonable doubt that they were going to be elite pieces. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Devils do not really have that. Hischier is a tremendous player, but let’s be honest, a 55 point two way center is not exactly ideal if we think the Devils are building a contender. Can he still develop? Absolutely. But if he remains what he is, he’s a very good player, but simply not good enough to “build” around. Same with Hughes, he’s looked much better this year and some of his underlying numbers are great, but at the end of the day, we need to see much more consistency and production to be confident that the Devils can build their team around him. Bratt, Shara, Kuokanen, (hopefully now Zacha), and the rest of the youngsters are all terrific complementary pieces for our core guys IF the core guys take the next step.

Smith is looking like a core piece too, so hopefully he continues this trajectory. Blackwood as well, but this has been a season of highs and lows.

My point is, all of these teams we point to and aspire to be after the rebuild is over...they all pretty quickly were at least able to rest easy on the fact that their core pieces were elite even if they were still finishing the rebuild. The Devils aren’t there yet. If our pieces don’t take the next step, we’re closer to looking like Arizona, Florida, and the NYI did for years and years. Until they finally put it together (at least FL and NYI).

 

[SteveCangialosi123]

I think the narrative that is missing around those name dropping teams as examples of “it takes time,” is that those team’s young building blocks very quickly established beyond a reasonable doubt that they were going to be elite pieces. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Devils do not really have that. Hischier is a tremendous player, but let’s be honest, a 55 point two way center is not exactly ideal if we think the Devils are building a contender. Can he still develop? Absolutely. But if he remains what he is, he’s a very good player, but simply not good enough to “build” around. Same with Hughes, he’s looked much better this year and some of his underlying numbers are great, but at the end of the day, we need to see much more consistency and production to be confident that the Devils can build their team around him. Bratt, Shara, Kuokanen, (hopefully now Zacha), and the rest of the youngsters are all terrific complementary pieces for our core guys IF the core guys take the next step.

Smith is looking like a core piece too, so hopefully he continues this trajectory. Blackwood as well, but this has been a season of highs and lows.

My point is, all of these teams we point to and aspire to be after the rebuild is over...they all pretty quickly were at least able to rest easy on the fact that their core pieces were elite even if they were still finishing the rebuild. The Devils aren’t there yet. If our pieces don’t take the next step, we’re closer to looking like Arizona, Florida, and the NYI did for years and years. Until they finally put it together (at least FL and NYI).

Hughes, Nico, Smith, and Bratt are very clearly core pieces. You can throw point or goal totals at me, I don’t really care. These are young players that can be the core of a great team. We just need a few more.

 

[MauDevils]

Not only Keith and Seabrook, but Nik Hjalmarsson (2005), Dustin Byfuglien (2003), Corey Crawford (2003), Cam Barker (2004 3rd overall bust), Andrew Ladd (acquired via trade in 2007 for Tuomo Ruutu who was a top 10 pick in 2001), and Patrick Sharp.

That also leaves out homegrown guys who played big supporting roles like Dave Bolland, Bryan Bickell, Troy Brouwer, etc.

They missed the playoffs multiple seasons and had awful teams with all of those guys while they were young and developing. They also went on to put up 104 points and made the playoffs with that group without adding any major pieces outside of the organization.

And don't forget the waterboy. They couldn't have done it without him.

 

[Unknown Caller]

I think the narrative that is missing around those name dropping teams as examples of “it takes time,” is that those team’s young building blocks very quickly established beyond a reasonable doubt that they were going to be elite pieces. Whether we want to admit it or not, the Devils do not really have that. Hischier is a tremendous player, but let’s be honest, a 55 point two way center is not exactly ideal if we think the Devils are building a contender. Can he still develop? Absolutely. But if he remains what he is, he’s a very good player, but simply not good enough to “build” around. Same with Hughes, he’s looked much better this year and some of his underlying numbers are great, but at the end of the day, we need to see much more consistency and production to be confident that the Devils can build their team around him. Bratt, Shara, Kuokanen, (hopefully now Zacha), and the rest of the youngsters are all terrific complementary pieces for our core guys IF the core guys take the next step.

Smith is looking like a core piece too, so hopefully he continues this trajectory. Blackwood as well, but this has been a season of highs and lows.

My point is, all of these teams we point to and aspire to be after the rebuild is over...they all pretty quickly were at least able to rest easy on the fact that their core pieces were elite even if they were still finishing the rebuild. The Devils aren’t there yet. If our pieces don’t take the next step, we’re closer to looking like Arizona, Florida, and the NYI did for years and years. Until they finally put it together (at least FL and NYI).

I can promise you that Jack Hughes is going to be an elite piece and Nico will be an all-star caliber (while maybe slightly below elite) piece, whether you like analytics or not.

 

[NJDevs26]

the Avs are the best comparable to where we should aspire to be.

from 2010-2017 (seven seasons), they made the playoffs once, lost in the first round. Sound familiar?

2009- Duchene 3rd overall
2011- Landeskog 2nd overall
2013- MacKinnon 1st overall
2015- Rantanen 10th overall
2016- Jost 10th overall
2017- Makar 4th overall (via trade of Duchene)

if you don't see the similarities....I don't know what to tell you.

So basically then we should hit 90 points next year and all of our comparable draft picks will turn out to be as good as theirs?

 

[Unknown Caller]

So basically a guarantee we hit 90 points next year and all of our comparable draft picks are as good as theirs?

How do you take the prior post and turn it into someone guaranteeing that?

 

[markog]

That doesn't fit the M.O. shhhhhhhhh.

Where were these players picked?

 

[Nocashstyle]

I can promise you that Jack Hughes is going to be an elite piece and Nico will be an all-star caliber (while maybe slightly below elite) piece, whether you like analytics or not.

View attachment 426390

That’s my point though. Until they actually take the next step production wise, their analytics only mean so much. Teams that have had successful builds usually see the production before the rebuild is over. We haven’t see that yet.

 

[TheDuke93]

Hughes, Nico, Smith, and Bratt are very clearly core pieces. You can throw point or goal totals at me, I don’t really care. These are young players that can be the core of a great team. We just need a few more.

Foote, Holtz, Mercer, Mukhamadullin and our 1st this year all have potential as well.

 

[FooteBahl]

I can promise you that Jack Hughes is going to be an elite piece and Nico will be an all-star caliber (while maybe slightly below elite) piece, whether you like analytics or not.

View attachment 426390

Gretzky? Lemieux? What am I looking at here? Please help an old man out!

 

[Nocashstyle]

Hughes, Nico, Smith, and Bratt are very clearly core pieces. You can throw point or goal totals at me, I don’t really care. These are young players that can be the core of a great team. We just need a few more.

Missing my point

 

[NJDevs26]

How do you take the prior post and turn it into someone guaranteeing that?

He was comparing us to the Avs who had seven years with one playoff berth. We just finished seven years with one playoff berth, so if we’re going to pump the be like the Avs talking point next year needs to be a big jump and all our comparable picks need to be as good.

 

[Unknown Caller]

That’s my point though. Until they actually take the next step production wise, their analytics only mean so much. Teams that have had successful builds usually see the production before the rebuild is over. We haven’t see that yet.

I think those who have watched Jack Hughes know exactly what he's going to be, regardless of what his point totals over essentially half of an 82 game season have shown.

 

[Unknown Caller]

He was comparing us to the Avs who had seven years with one playoff berth. We just finished seven years with one playoff berth, so if we’re going to pump the be like the Avs talking point next year needs to be a big jump.

He said that's what we should aspire to be. He didn't guarantee anything.

 

[NJDevs26]

He said that's what we should aspire to be. He didn't guarantee anything.

I’ll rephrase.

 

[AfroThunder396]

-Progress isn't always linear
-There is more to progress than points and wins
-Hockey teams can't be good by virtue of one or two good players, they need quality depth at every position
-Drafting and development takes time and the results
-Every draft is unique
-Even if prospects never reach their full potential, they still have use as organizational depth and trade capital
-Long term success and short term success are obtained very, very differently
-Asset management and cap management are just as important to long term success as drafting and development

 

[Nocashstyle]

I think those who have watched Jack Hughes know exactly what he's going to be, regardless of what his point totals over essentially half of an 82 game season have shown.

I hope. But I certainly cannot be sure. At some point, the production needs to come. It’s difficult to find any recent comparisons to point to that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he’s suddenly going to be an elite producer.