Detroit Redwings Downfall

[nbwingsfan]

If low calorie “someone has to score” points on a lottery team are the only evaluation criteria sure. There’s no contender where Debrincat is the best bang for the buck spend of 8 million dollars + trade assets, let alone the assets you’d need to ship out to clear the cap space in the first place.

He’s gonna be a bad team stat accumulator for the majority of his career and that’s ok, nobody is paying a 1st for him at full cap though.

Weird, he was pacing basically the same last year on a team that missed the playoffs by 1pt. Is that a “lottery” team?

Or does that not fit your narrative ?

 

[dekelikekocur]

Isn't he UFA? I can't imagine he's getting another contract in Detroit.. or is he?

I doubt he re-signs. They just brought him I think as a favor to his dad.

 

[Czechboy]

15th best D pair. according to this particular defenisive stat.

 

[thefutures]

Debrincat is a cap dump and soucy and myers> seider edvinsson. But this is not a troll thread

 

[RedHawkDown]

15th best D pair. according to this particular defenisive stat.

15th best d pair with by far the hardest deployment in the league *

Context matters

 

[DavidpauseReinbacher]

Soucy Myers lol. Your a f***in clown

 

[Czechboy]

15th best d pair with by far the hardest deployment in the league *

Context matters

I posted my stat, you post yours! Mine is as of today. I'm finding a lot of older stats get quoted on here and repeated enough that they have become 'fact'. I'm not saying their deplyoment isn't the hardest in the NHL on December 15th but would love to see the stat proving this please. Be interesting how much 'easier' the deployment of the 14 pairs ahead of them are.

 

[Hisch13r]

15th best D pair. according to this particular defenisive stat.

This is also just the defensive side. Including both ends of the rink they’d fall to 28 of 61. I’m not trying to poo poo them because the potential on the backend of Seider/Edvinsson/ASP/(should be Walman too but Yzerplan babyyyyyyyy) is the one truly great thing about the Wings. They’re not the best pair in the league though

God I love the Devils top 4

 

[RedHawkDown]

I posted my stat, you post yours! Mine is as of today. I'm finding a lot of older stats get quoted on here and repeated enough that they have become 'fact'. I'm not saying their deplyoment isn't the hardest in the NHL on December 15th but would love to see the stat proving this please. Be interesting how much 'easier' the deployment of the 14 pairs ahead of them are.

I plotted all the guys ahead of them on that list. It’s on my phone so hard to see the names well. But Seider and Edvinsson are the two blue bubbles at the top with high relative CF and by far the highest QoC of all these players except Gavrikov’s pairing, but as you can see by the colors they have a lower relative CF as well in their deployment.

 

[deca guard]

This is also just the defensive side. Including both ends of the rink they’d fall to 28 of 61. I’m not trying to poo poo them because the potential on the backend of Seider/Edvinsson/ASP/(should be Walman too but Yzerplan babyyyyyyyy) is the one truly great thing about the Wings. They’re not the best pair in the league though

God I love the Devils top 4

- their not the best pair in the league YET
- and edvinsson just a rookie in development stage , obviously a great defensive factor already . offense still developing and by next season he will be at 50 points and top 5 nhl on the d side , worth as much to a team as near anybody . seider is great , but edvinsson might become best dman in nhl

 

[Czechboy]

This is also just the defensive side. Including both ends of the rink they’d fall to 28 of 61. I’m not trying to poo poo them because the potential on the backend of Seider/Edvinsson/ASP/(should be Walman too but Yzerplan babyyyyyyyy) is the one truly great thing about the Wings. They’re not the best pair in the league though

God I love the Devils top 4

I do believe they are an amazing pair. It'd be interesting to see how they'd like in a fantasy league if they were traded for Toews/Makar or Bouch/Ekholm (I'm an Oiler fan).

I think ASP should deliver too. Just not as quickly as people think. He's a few years away from being a 50 point Dman (or more). We currently have high end D picks like Nemec, Jiricek and Korchinski skating away in the AHL. So I'd temper some expectations for ASP for next season. He's at least 2 away.

I'd add Cossa/ Augsustine in goalie pipe is a great thing to have on a building team (similar to Askarov precolating for SJ).

 

[Czechboy]

but edvinsson might become best dman in nhl

Can you please just let me know who wins the Norris first for the wing's.. Asp Seider or Ed?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

I plotted all the guys ahead of them on that list. It’s on my phone so hard to see the names well. But Seider and Edvinsson are the two blue bubbles at the top with high relative CF and by far the highest QoC of all these players except Gavrikov’s pairing, but as you can see by the colors they have a lower relative CF as well in their deployment.

Relative just means relative to their own teammates. It's just saying they're much better than the other red wings. The xga is a much better stat to compare players from different teams.

 

[RedHawkDown]

Relative just means relative to their own teammates. It's just saying they're much better than the other red wings. The xga is a much better stat to compare players from different teams.

That’s fine. The point of the chart was just the QoC metric, not the relative CF color scale. The players they face have the highest relative CF on their own teams, ie the best players on each team. They face the hardest competition in the league among that list of pairings (and actually in the entire NHL if you plot all defensemen), and manage a good xGA in that deployment. That’s why they are a top pairing in the league.

If the wings had any other dmen above 6/7D, they’d be 10x better. Chiarot is a decent 6D with good physicality. Petry, Holl, Gustafsson are all not NHL level players. Johansson shows promise but Lalonde doesn’t let him play. Raymond, Ed and Seider are the main reason the team isn’t 32nd.

This is why Wings fans still have some hope. Because the players Yzerman have drafted all actually look really good. It’s his FA signings and pro scouting that are truly abysmal. If the trend continues and ASP/Danielson/Cossa/MBN/buchelnikov/augustine + this years pick live up to their potential, we think we can do some damage. But obviously the pro scouting and UFA work has to get way better too. Stevie has definitely shit the bed in that department so far.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I posted my stat, you post yours! Mine is as of today. I'm finding a lot of older stats get quoted on here and repeated enough that they have become 'fact'. I'm not saying their deplyoment isn't the hardest in the NHL on December 15th but would love to see the stat proving this please. Be interesting how much 'easier' the deployment of the 14 pairs ahead of them are.

 

[Czechboy]

Tremendous list to be on. Hope all the Bouch haters notice he's on there too! (if you don't follow the Oil, Bouch gets shit on with threads about as much as the Yzerplan - two hot button topics on here.lol)

 

[RedHawkDown]

This is even better than the chart. Really demonstrates how incredible Ed has been this year given the role he’s been put in. The wings have 2 1D on the roster, the problem is that they have 1-2 6D and 3-4 AHL D after that.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

That’s fine. The point of the chart was just the QoC metric, not the relative CF color scale. The players they face have the highest relative CF on their own teams, ie the best players on each team. They face the hardest competition in the league among that list of pairings (and actually in the entire NHL if you plot all defensemen), and manage a good xGA in that deployment. That’s why they are a top pairing in the league.

If the wings had any other dmen above 6/7D, they’d be 10x better. Chiarot is a decent 6D with good physicality. Petry, Holl, Gustafsson are all not NHL level players. Johansson shows promise but Lalonde doesn’t let him play. Raymond, Ed and Seider are the main reason the team isn’t 32nd.

This is why Wings fans still have some hope. Because the players Yzerman have drafted all actually look really good. It’s his FA signings and pro scouting that are truly abysmal. If the trend continues and ASP/Danielson/Cossa/MBN/buchelnikov/augustine + this years pick live up to their potential, we think we can do some damage. But obviously the pro scouting and UFA work has to get way better too. Stevie has definitely shit the bed in that department so far.

Fair, they play tough minutes and are doing really well. They're the last players I would say anything bad about, they're legit. Just too early to call them the best pair in the league. A pair like Hughes Hronek or Makar Toews is dominant in xga and on xgf as well for example.

 

[FuryOfTheSwarm]

Who are all these people butthurt about the Wings dominating their teams I'd like to meet one.

Wings have won one cup since the two line pass rule stopped being a thing despite having the best defenseman of the era plus Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Rafalski, Kronwall, Hossa and god knows who else to work with and being the first to figure out that you can abuse retirement contracts.

Like Vegas has had as much of a presence as the Wings since the 2005 lockout and they've only been at it for 7 and a half years.

But yeah, building a team is hard when you don't walk into a situation where you have Stamkos, Hedman and St. Louis right off the bat and don't luck into drafting a generational Russian winger after spending your first round draft pick on Vladislav Namestnikov. Who would have thought

 

[Golden_Jet]

I plotted all the guys ahead of them on that list. It’s on my phone so hard to see the names well. But Seider and Edvinsson are the two blue bubbles at the top with high relative CF and by far the highest QoC of all these players except Gavrikov’s pairing, but as you can see by the colors they have a lower relative CF as well in their deployment.

yes context matters

So they have the hardest deployment on their team, that doesn’t necessarily mean league wide hardest deployment.

15th best d pair with by far the hardest deployment in the league *

Context matters

 

[RedHawkDown]

yes context matters

So they have the hardest deployment on their team, that isn’t league wide hardest deployment.

No, they have the hardest deployment in the league. Not just on their team. The Y axis on the chart shows the rel CF of opposing players on their own teams. As in, they play against the players that have the best CF on their own teams. You don't seem to understand the statistic. You can go check yourself, they are at the very top of the chart even if you plot every single defenseman in the NHL. They face the hardest competition in the league. Seider specifically has faced the hardest competition in the NHL of any player since he entered the league and has held his own in that capacity.

Pavel's Dog also posted a clearer statistic that shows the same thing. They have the highest # of minutes played against elite competition in the NHL.

Fair, they play tough minutes and are doing really well. They're the last players I would say anything bad about, they're legit. Just too early to call them the best pair in the league. A pair like Hughes Hronek or Makar Toews is dominant in xga and on xgf as well for example.

I agree with that. They don't have the offense to go along with the defense, but I would be comfortable saying they are the best defensive pair in the NHL. The problem is that we don't really know how they could do offensively against worse players because the Wings immediately get scored on if anyone other than them plays the top 2 lines on every opposing team, so there is no choice but to bury them in that usage. Hopefully in the coming years we'll see the 2nd and 3rd pair in Detroit improve, and then we'll really see what Seider and Ed can do on the offensive side of the puck.

But again this is why this thread is quite frustrating for Wings fans when people keep saying Yzerman f***ed up by not tanking. In 2019, the only player that clearly goes above Seider in a redraft is Hughes. In 2020, the only player that clearly goes above Raymond is Stutzle. In 2021, Edvinsson has an argument for #1 along with Luke Hughes and Kent Johnson. That's 3 straight years that Yzerman drafted an arguably #2-4 caliber player in the draft. So if the Wings had drafted #2, #2, #2 3 years in a row and got the same exact players, Seider/Ray/Ed would be good picks in those spots. Would people still be saying they should have tanked even harder for the #1 pick in those years? I doubt it (especially given it's luck based).

The only years where tanking even harder would have made a difference are 2023 with Bedard, and maybe 2022 with Cooley. Last year they missed the playoffs by 0 points so I'm not sure how tanking would even have been possible without trading Seider and Raymond. But the point is that drafting is not the issue in detroit and has not been at any point during Yzerman's tenure. The problem, by and large, is terrible pro scouting. And that is what has to improve, not the drafting.