Detroit Redwings Downfall
- Thread starter Dbarthnek96
- Start date
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
yup, trade Talbot (who has been fantastic) and run with Lyon and Campbell.
But I think Yzerman wants to allow the team a chance to dig itself out by TDL... then start clearing out the roster. If you have listened to his comments, you'll hear he is kind of a cold hardass.
So no rush trading Talbot. I doubt return value is worth more now than at TDL.
It's just crazy how bad the Atlantic is this season. Nobody wants it!
Czechboy
Češi do toho!
- Apr 15, 2018
- 27,907
- 25,136
Talbot at TDL would be a great move. He was in Team Canada talks for 4 nations. He has value for sure.
deca guard
Registered User
i was mystified years ago when oil traded , or didnt sign , talbot as ive always been a fan . and if i were a contender this season ide be seriously interested
If they’re tanking in year 6 of the famed “Yzerplan”, then Yzerman is a failure.
Fatass
Registered User
- Apr 17, 2017
- 24,227
- 15,969
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Tanking is an overused word. They don't need to "tank". They just need to stay the course, and let the chips fall.
Clearly if making the playoffs was that important, Yzerman would have fired the coach last month. The "yzerplan" (another dumb word) is designed to start to show the fruits of its labor by 2026/27.
You can reconcile that using this link:
Detroit Red Wings Multi-Year Table
A summary of financial breakdowns for the Detroit Red Wings, including multi-year cap totals, player cap hits & free agents.
www.spotrac.com
deca guard
Registered User
YZER'FENCE NOT PLAN : hes building a
team designed to be difficult to generate
chances against . the trolls are whining
about no offensive stars , mean while hes
used his early picks to stack up seider-
edvinsson-cossa-kasper-danielsson in
effort to shut down opponant offensive
stars
team designed to be difficult to generate
chances against . the trolls are whining
about no offensive stars , mean while hes
used his early picks to stack up seider-
edvinsson-cossa-kasper-danielsson in
effort to shut down opponant offensive
stars
They were battling for a playoff spot until the last period of the regular season.
If you can’t see the difference between that and purposely trying to lose games then I dunno what to tell you
The Red Wings hired the supposed best GM in the game so that he would only start producing results 8 years into his tenure? Absolutely and completely unacceptable. The Red Wings could have hired anyone off the street if that was the plan.
What in the world are we supposed to do until then?
That wouldn’t have been the case had they not completely shown their asses in March with a 7 game losing streak, which included two losses inside a week to the Coyotes, who dominated them in both games.
And he's done a horrible job of that so far if that's what he's aiming for.
The majority of the fan base pointing out Detroit's terrible 5v5 stats and noticing that players like J.T. Compher and Andrew Copp—signed to provide offense—are completely invisible on the ice, are "trolls" because they don't line up to drink Yzerman's bathwater like you do?
Yeah, that's not how it works.
Three of those players are now regulars in the NHL. How's that whole "shutting down the opposition stars" thing working out?
Borlag
Registered User
It's not like they're purposely not trying to win either by employing as well as icing the 2nd and 3rd pairings that we have...
MarkusNaslund19
Registered User
- Dec 28, 2005
- 5,795
- 8,720
The shift in discourse from arrogance over 'the Yzerplan" being the solution to everything and Detroit being on the verge of being Tampa 2.0, into "He's not that bad. If we just reload our reload we might be first round fodder at some point"
And I Say that liking Raymond, Seider, and Edvinsson a lot. But there are lots of teams with a core that isn't a ton worse with a far better supporting cast.
I hear Wings fans going off on the wonderful 2nd line prospects they're going to bring in. But as currently expected, Larkin and Raymond are and will be their top guy and while both are legitimate first liners, neither are centerpiece players and they get asked to do too much against superstars.
Things aren't working in Detroit right now and anyone who won't acknowledge that is drinking copium by the barrel.
And I Say that liking Raymond, Seider, and Edvinsson a lot. But there are lots of teams with a core that isn't a ton worse with a far better supporting cast.
I hear Wings fans going off on the wonderful 2nd line prospects they're going to bring in. But as currently expected, Larkin and Raymond are and will be their top guy and while both are legitimate first liners, neither are centerpiece players and they get asked to do too much against superstars.
Things aren't working in Detroit right now and anyone who won't acknowledge that is drinking copium by the barrel.
- Jan 23, 2008
- 9,252
- 6,712
Dotter
THE ATHLETIC IS GARBAGE
Hyperbolic posts like this is why this thread stays at the top of HF main boards.
Nobody said the dumb "Yzerplan" word is the solution to everything, AND nobody said they are a few tweaks away from being Tampa 2.0.
Yzerman has been clear on day one. Armchair GMs in this thread refuse to accept his comment. Instead these professional internet armchair GMs have put in some kind of weird and nonsensical arbitrary timeline. We laugh at that! And we laugh at them!
The only thing that's happened is Yzerman is rebuilding and continues to draft and develop (mostly) the best players available and injects youth each season he has been here, who have since become 'the core'. And there's more coming!
If your argument is you must build through UFA and/or Trading, then I say you are wrong. You have to build through the draft then as your young players start coming in to replace the garbage placeholders... eventually you fill holes when, and only when, it is time to start to compete. Unless a Debrincat falls in your lap for pennies on the dollar. Then I guess that one is a no brainer.
I think Steve Yzerman is the perfect example of why you don't hire a team legend to be a GM/coach as the love of the player blinds everyone from their ineffectiveness as an executive.
Now other than Larkin, he did inherit a collection of crap in Detroit with little young talent. But to build a team, yes you need high draft picks but you also need to find NHL players in the later rounds. And with those high draft picks, if you don't get megastars with them, you really need to find guys in the later rounds. So far, he has found some good players at the top of the draft but little to nothing after that.
The crazy thing is he found a bunch of really good players in Tampa outside of the top 5 like Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Cirelli, Point, and Colton but he hasn't been able to come close to replicating that in Detroit. I have to wonder why.
Now other than Larkin, he did inherit a collection of crap in Detroit with little young talent. But to build a team, yes you need high draft picks but you also need to find NHL players in the later rounds. And with those high draft picks, if you don't get megastars with them, you really need to find guys in the later rounds. So far, he has found some good players at the top of the draft but little to nothing after that.
The crazy thing is he found a bunch of really good players in Tampa outside of the top 5 like Kucherov, Vasilevskiy, Cirelli, Point, and Colton but he hasn't been able to come close to replicating that in Detroit. I have to wonder why.
Borlag
Registered User
The most disheartening thing as a Detroit fan isn't really the state of our prospects, that's still a questionmark even if several of them are looking very good in their leagues. The real problem is the part of the game that doesn't develop at all; the system of playing. I get it that half the players are less than optimal and the vets are mostly placeholders, but what I don't get is how a bunch of the vets on defense have completely fallen off and nothing is being done to even try to fix that. Game after the players play the same game, more or less unsuccesfully.
They're not learning to play with a working system, they're grinding out games in a losing system. Outside a handful of players, the effort isn't there, the powerplay is atrocious and a bunch of the guys seem like they don't even know what they should be doing. They're not buiding a winning culture with that, but rather a losing culture. If Holl, Petry, Gustafsson and Chiarot are allowed to coast around being useless, that doesn't teach the kids anything but "hey, don't even try, they pay me anyway".
If Lalonde isn't fired by the end of this season, hopefully sooner, next season will be the exact same thing with a rookie or two more and couple different washed out veterans. Similarily the proscouting should also be looked into. Way too many complete misses on the veteran contracts for it to be coincidence.
They're not learning to play with a working system, they're grinding out games in a losing system. Outside a handful of players, the effort isn't there, the powerplay is atrocious and a bunch of the guys seem like they don't even know what they should be doing. They're not buiding a winning culture with that, but rather a losing culture. If Holl, Petry, Gustafsson and Chiarot are allowed to coast around being useless, that doesn't teach the kids anything but "hey, don't even try, they pay me anyway".
If Lalonde isn't fired by the end of this season, hopefully sooner, next season will be the exact same thing with a rookie or two more and couple different washed out veterans. Similarily the proscouting should also be looked into. Way too many complete misses on the veteran contracts for it to be coincidence.
Thankfully, the number of Yzerman shills who continue to bleat "Trust the Yzerplan!!!" is growing smaller by the day.
I was on that train as recently as the beginning of last year, but it's way past damn time that this team takes a quantum leap forward and starts honoring the wishes of their paying customers.
The difference is that Yzerman was hired after he put together a proven track record. AFAIK, the Flyers hired Bobby Clarke only because he was a name (Flyers fans correct me if I'm wrong).
But yes, it's the love of Yzerman for his legendary playing career that continues to blind so many fans and cause them to repeat their usual refrain of "How DARE you question the CAPTAIN!!"
The difference between me and them is that I can differentiate between Steve YZerman the player (still my favorite player of all time), and Steve Yzerman the underwhelming, underperforming, lethargic Red Wings general manager.
While it's true that he inherited Chornobyl thanks to Ken Holland's utter incompetence (or actions at the behest of the Ilitch Family who told him to make the playoffs no matter what to give Mike one last playoff run before he passed), this is now 100% Yzerman's team.
Signing players like Andrew Copp and J.T. Compher and paying them as bonafide 2nd line centers has worked out disastrously. Ben Chiarot has (mostly) been abysmal. He actually intentionally acquired Jeff Petry and paid him money on purpose to play professional hockey.
Then, he traded Walman (who leads all SJS defensemen in scoring) out of nowhere with no real explanation, didn't re-sign Gostisbehere (who signed for less AAV in Carolina than he made in Detroit last season, and, surprise surprise, leads all Canes defensemen in scoring), and brought in Erik Gustafsson, who has arguably been the worst Red Wings defenseman aside from Petry since Dennis Cholowski.
Detroit's pro scouting is a dumpster fire. Meanwhile, look at what Jim Nill has done with a different staff in Dallas - elite drafting.
And his paying customers are being clearer. They need to speed this thing TF up, immediately. Why the hell should we support this garbage product if the goal is to not win until 2027?
In what other profession do you get to openly say you're not going to begin producing results until years later? Why should these sports executives be treated as if they're curing cancer and are above reproach?
Management needs to have a serious conversation with Yzerman and tell him that a quarter has been placed into the parking meter and the clock is ticking.
It's not a "weird and nonsensical arbitrary timeline" to expect the Red Wings, one of the NHL's premier franchises, to be back in the postseason after literally half a decade has passed under the tutelage of the supposed top GM in hockey.
Again, nobody said that the Red Wings had to be the Red Wings of old and be legit Cup contenders by this point. Making the playoffs in the NHL, where half the League gets in, isn't hard.
Imagine telling New York Yankees fans if Derek Jeter returned to take over as GM during a rough period and that they still hadn't made the playoffs by year 6 of his tenure, and he openly implied that fans needed to wait another 2-3 years before they could maybe think of the postseason. Fans would burn Yankee Stadium down.
Why does Yzerman get this get out of jail free card?
You can't build exclusively through the draft. The Red WIngs are a perfect example of this.
Now don't get me wrong - I absolutely hope that all of these sacred "kids" still in Grand Rapids are the next Brayden Point, Nikita Kucherov, Cale Makar, and Andrei Vasilevskiy and we're sitting here in 3-4 years and the Red Wings are a wagon with a decade-long Cup window.
But until then, we don't know if these kids are going to pan out. Remember when we thought players like Filip Zadina and Dennis Cholowski were part of the next big wave?
Yzerman's placeholders have been grossly overpaid and have vastly underperformed. There's nothing wrong with saying that he made several mistakes by signing players like Copp, Compher, Chiarot, Petry, etc.
WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
- 31,905
- 21,122
You got a source from 2019 of Yzerman saying the Wings won’t be competitive until 2027?
