Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Stephen]

That list isn’t comparable? It simply shows the disconnect between salary and term as it relates to Matthews. Sorry I didn’t realize what you provided was written on a tablet and everything else irrelevant. And if you don’t like the term either, why are you defending it continually, just to be argumentative for its own sake.

The big three rolled Dubas.

Why are they not comparables? Each one is a franchise level player taken in the Top 5 who signed for 5 or 6 years which are the contract lengths signed by Matthews, Marner and Nylander over the course of the salary cap era. The names have been provided. The contract lengths are all published on Capfriendly. What does the article add?

 

[Mess]

If Dubas worked for a small market team, he'd be more likely to be in a lower tax location, and so contract structure wouldn't need to be arranged with front loading/bonuses to lessen the gap in end compensation.

Yup you got that right, upfront signing bonuses are designed to level the playing field for markets with low/zero tax situation so that players can earn the same take home pay in the end.

But what you missed was that its suppose to lower or equal contracts across the markets.

Dubas hands out the highest AAV's to compensate for market and taxes, and then hands out also unprecedented front loaded contract 92-94% to again compensate for markets and taxes.,

Its an either or negotiating tool, not doubling down on both ends of the deal.

So if a player in a tax free zone gets $9 mil per then Leafs have to offer $11 mil so that after taxes the players are even on take home pay. However you can also give both players the same $9 mil AAV, but compensate the player in the higher tax bracket with his money upfront and sooner so that with proper investing he once again earns the same relative take home pay over the length of the contract.

Matthews, Tavares and Marner have 3 of the 7 highest AAV deals in the league and their contracts also include 92-94% front loaded deals which puts the Leafs at the highest end of both scales because player agents are playing a greenhorn GM in a big market. Or how do you choose to make excuses where Leafs upfront loaded deals are nearly double that of the next highest team also dealing with the same tax issues?


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]PLAYER[/TH]
[TH]TEAM[/TH]
[TH]AGE[/TH]
[TH]POS[/TH]
[TH]CLAUSE[/TH]
[TH]LENGTH[/TH]
[TH]EXPIRY[/TH]
[TH]CAP HIT[/TH]
[TH]CAP HIT %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. Connor McDavid[/TD]
[TD]EDM[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$12,500,000[/TD]
[TD]16.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. Artemi Panarin[/TD]
[TD]NYR[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,642,857[/TD]
[TD]14.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,640,250[/TD]
[TD]14.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. Erik Karlsson[/TD]
[TD]SJS[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]RD[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,500,000[/TD]
[TD]14.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,000,000[/TD]
[TD]13.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6. Drew Doughty[/TD]
[TD]LAK[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]RD[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,000,000[/TD]
[TD]13.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7. Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$10,903,000[/TD]
[TD]13.4%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

&

You know what you do with a GM that hands out he biggest contracts for the shortest terms, and also the highest frontloaded deals and delivers Zero playoff results? .. You fire him !!!!

Dubas can't assemble a playoff winning team no matter how foolishly he spends money trying to achieve it. That there is your bottom line !!!

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yup you got that right, upfront signing bonuses are designed to level the playing field for markets with low/zero tax situation so that players can earn the same take home pay in the end.
But what you missed was that its suppose to lower or equal contracts across the markets.

...You're contradicting yourself. No, it's not supposed to impact AAV. If it impacted AAV, we'd be back to square one. Bigger markets (like Toronto) tend to be in higher tax locations. To offset the higher tax that their players have to pay relative to others (meaning less end compensation), front-loading and/or bonuses are often utilized (especially for their most important players) so that the player has the option to invest that money a little bit quicker to potentially lessen the gap in end compensation a little bit. This also often helps the team, with no real downside for a financially stable organization.

Dubas hands our the highest AAV's to compensate for market and taxes

Dubas did not hand out a higher AAV to compensate for market and taxes. The contracts are consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Cap space can be used to bring in a player, just like a draft pick. It should be treated as a valuable asset.



I don’t know who caved, but I do know that 7.5 million was way too much on a 6 year deal for a player who put up a couple of 60 point seasons and doesn’t contribute anything in addition to those points.

Of course cap space is an asset.

So Nylander caved at the last minute, but you don't know who caved. Oooooooooooooookay then.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Still can't get over the title of this thread

 

[Dekes For Days]

View attachment 553479

Also, I'm not sure what you think this is showing, but even putting aside that Toronto logically should be at the top of bonus money commitments, as a financially stable organization with a bunch of high-end players in one of the worst tax locations, this chart is actually entirely meaningless because it's also factoring in the term we have on all those players and skewing how each team actually utilizes bonus money.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Still can't get over the title of this thread

Seems like you can't get over any number of things. I wonder what the over/under is on when you'll calm down? You still have a full head of steam so my guess is you'll keep the sarcastic quips coming for at least another month or two. But if August rolls around and you're still at it, then I might start to get a bit worried about your mental health.

I do agree about the title, some sarcastic quips are justified for sure.

 

[PromisedLand]

It doesn’t matter what anyone thinks of Dubas at this point. This is where we are. IMO this is a no lose year or goodbye.
No excuses, no good try, no get ‘‘em next year. So long.

There are no rumours of his contract being extended. This piece of trash that has ruined the Leafs will be FIRED! It is a f***ing shame that we funded his experiments and deluded egotistical approaches.

I don't care what happens next season. He should be FIRED!!!

Except for an appearance in cup finals/or cup his ass should be canned! There is no #1 goalie, no #1D man 50%. Dubas is the worst GM in history of any sport if you use context to see in what situation he came in and what is the situation with the team now.

Yup you got that right, upfront signing bonuses are designed to level the playing field for markets with low/zero tax situation so that players can earn the same take home pay in the end.

But what you missed was that its suppose to lower or equal contracts across the markets.

Dubas hands out the highest AAV's to compensate for market and taxes, and then hands out also unprecedented front loaded contract 92-94% to again compensate for markets and taxes.,

Its an either or negotiating tool, not doubling down on both ends of the deal.

So if a player in a tax free zone gets $9 mil per then Leafs have to offer $11 mil so that after taxes the players are even on take home pay. However you can also give both players the same $9 mil AAV, but compensate the player in the higher tax bracket with his money upfront and sooner so that with proper investing he once again earns the same relative take home pay over the length of the contract.

Matthews, Tavares and Marner have 3 of the 7 highest AAV deals in the league and their contracts also include 92-94% front loaded deals which puts the Leafs at the highest end of both scales because player agents are playing a greenhorn GM in a big market. Or how do you choose to make excuses where Leafs upfront loaded deals are nearly double that of the next highest team also dealing with the same tax issues?


[TABLE=collapse]
[TR]
[TH]PLAYER[/TH]
[TH]TEAM[/TH]
[TH]AGE[/TH]
[TH]POS[/TH]
[TH]CLAUSE[/TH]
[TH]LENGTH[/TH]
[TH]EXPIRY[/TH]
[TH]CAP HIT[/TH]
[TH]CAP HIT %[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1. Connor McDavid[/TD]
[TD]EDM[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$12,500,000[/TD]
[TD]16.7%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2. Artemi Panarin[/TD]
[TD]NYR[/TD]
[TD]30[/TD]
[TD]LW[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,642,857[/TD]
[TD]14.3%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3. Auston Matthews[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]24[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,640,250[/TD]
[TD]14.6%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]4. Erik Karlsson[/TD]
[TD]SJS[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]RD[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,500,000[/TD]
[TD]14.5%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5. John Tavares[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]31[/TD]
[TD]C[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]7[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,000,000[/TD]
[TD]13.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6. Drew Doughty[/TD]
[TD]LAK[/TD]
[TD]32[/TD]
[TD]RD[/TD]
[TD]NMC[/TD]
[TD]8[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$11,000,000[/TD]
[TD]13.8%[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7. Mitchell Marner[/TD]
[TD]TOR[/TD]
[TD]25[/TD]
[TD]RW[/TD]
[TD][/TD]

[TD]6[/TD]
[TD]UFA[/TD]
[TD]$10,903,000[/TD]
[TD]13.4%[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

&

View attachment 553479

You know what you do with a GM that hands out he biggest contracts for the shortest terms, and also the highest frontloaded deals and delivers Zero playoff results? .. You fire him !!!!

Dubas can't assemble a playoff winning team no matter how foolishly he spends money trying to achieve it. That there is your bottom line !!!

Bingo! Right on. You FIRE Him !!!!!

 

[DieselPig]

Dubas has failed on almost every metric. Hand gifted the young talent to build a stanley cup contender and hasnt been able to put together a team that surpassed the 1st round. Hes ruined this team's stanley cup window. Hes an absolute disgrace.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dubas has failed on almost every metric. Hand gifted the young talent to build a stanley cup contender and hasnt been able to put together a team that surpassed the 1st round. Hes ruined this team's stanley cup window. Hes an absolute disgrace.

LOL.

 

[Dreakmur]

Of course cap space is an asset.

So we gave up a huge asset to sign Tavares.

So Nylander caved at the last minute, but you don't know who caved. Oooooooooooooookay then.

You said Nylander caved. I’m not sure exactly how they came together.

 

[Mess]

Still can't get over the title of this thread

Lets break that done into 2 parts with the explanation as to why ..

1) Despite major challenges,

Those major challenges can be broken down to simply can't build and ice a team capable of winning a single playoff round, that is Dubas' biggest obstacle.

2) Kyle Dubas has passed the tests.

Passed the tests can be broken down to not getting himself fired for lack or results and incompetence in the job, when others would be long gone.

Reason:

Shanahan the teams President managed to convince the MLSE BOD and owners that replacing a HHOF and legendary 3 X time Cup winning GM after he just delivered a franchise best 100 year old best regular season before bowing out of the playoffs in round #1 was in their best interest. Who would do that to start with and think its a good idea?

However he convinced the owners that they needed new school thinking, and analytics which is the way of the future, to get the Leafs over the hump and across the finish line now towards future Cup success, and building off of a young talented inherited core and beyond the disappointing playoff losses. Despite the complete and utter failure of the Shan-A-Plan to date to deliver on that promisable, and despite handing out the highest contracts in the league, there is but one option full speed ahead and double down !!!

We have now reached the point of no return for Shanahan, as he can't go back to MLSE and claim he made a big mistake hiring Dubas a greenhorn GM that failed to deliver even a single round of success in 4 years. He can't go back to a now more knowledgeable, experience and qualified GM to replace him, because the last one he moved on from won Exec of the year 2 times since being replaced, but because of the blow back on himself and his own job performance review.

Firing Dubas now would be a self admission that he made a real poor decision to hire him in the first place as 20/20 hindsight is making that obviously clear by the results and annual playoff disappointment. So Shanahan in his own job self-preservation mode now is all full speed ahead, results be damned and keep sending the message his 8 year plan is right on schedule and it either finds success eventually or he will be fired himself.

The only true test Dubas passed is he fooled Shanahan into hiring him, and now knows he is secure as long a Shanahan sits in the President';s chair. for the reasons provided above.

Or as some of us like to summarize this whole ordeal and fiasco .. Greenhorn President, hires a greenhorn GM, who hires a greenhorn Coach, so what could possibly go wrong !!!! Results are self explanatory really,.

 

[Gary Nylund]

So we gave up a huge asset to sign Tavares.



You said Nylander caved. I’m not sure exactly how they came together.

Like I said, we gave up no players or picks to add an elite player to our roster which was a major coup.

Nylander held out until the last minute, the he caved. This is a widely known fact, hard to believe you're not aware of this but google can help you out here if you want to educate yourself.

 

[Dreakmur]

Like I said, we gave up no players or picks to add an elite player to our roster which was a major coup.

We gave up what we could have signed for 11 million dollars instead.

Nylander held out until the last minute, the he caved. This is a widely known fact, hard to believe you're not aware of this but google can help you out here if you want to educate yourself.

That’s what Toronto management team released to the media. That’s different than a fact. Grain of salt so to speak.

 

[Gary Nylund]

We gave up what we could have signed for 11 million dollars instead.



That’s what Toronto management team released to the media. That’s different than a fact. Grain of salt so to speak.

That doesn't the fact that like I said, we gave up no players or picks to add an elite player to our roster which was a major coup.

I haven't heard anyone dispute that it was Nylander who phoned Dubas at the last minute to accept the offer myself.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Kyle Dubas has not won a single playoff round.

At this point Kyle Dubas is failing

he's still here so he hasn't failed yet but he's failing

 

[Dreakmur]

That doesn't the fact that like I said, we gave up no players or picks to add an elite player to our roster which was a major coup.

You said we gave up no assets. You later agreed that cap space was an asset.

I'll meet you in the middle... we gave up no "traditional assets".

I haven't heard anyone dispute that it was Nylander who phoned Dubas at the last minute to accept the offer myself.

Same. I just know how teams release things to the media that they want the media to have. It's not just Dubas, and it's not just the Leafs.

 

[Gary Nylund]

You said we gave up no assets. You later agreed that cap space was an asset.

I'll meet you in the middle... we gave up no "traditional assets".



Same. I just know how teams release things to the media that they want the media to have. It's not just Dubas, and it's not just the Leafs.

I amended my original comment several posts ago to say "we gave up no players or picks to add an elite player to our roster which was a major coup".

What the team does or doesn't release to the media has nothing to do with the fact that it was Nylander who ended his holdout at the last minute, a fact which I haven't heard anyone dispute. The expression "he caved" is used for exactly this kind of situation.

Nylander caved. The fact that some people are to this day saying it was the other way around is just perverse.

 

[keonsbitterness]

A player of his caliber getting a NMC when eligible is not unusual.

I know it's common but I don't get it from a team point-of-view. I'd rather have control for the final year of a contract at the very least. In theory Matthews and Marner could really screw the Leafs over next June by telling them just before their NMCs kick in July 1 that they won't re-sign, leaving themselves in full control of their destiny.

How many hit free agency at 26? Oh well, the wake up call is coming, tick tock.

If Matthews re-signs for 8 years, the up-side will be that the Leafs get more value by only paying him max money up to age 34. More risk of a decline in his play if that contract went to age 37.

 

[Menzinger]

One of the Leafiest things fans do is pessimistically worry about what ifs 2-3 years from now.

We've got enough to be miserable at right now lol

 

[ShaneFalco]

There are no rumours of his contract being extended.

Seriously? Can you imagine?! But they wouldn't want poor Kyle to.be lame duck and have to.prove himself. Feelings may be hurt

 

[keonsbitterness]

One of the Leafiest things fans do is pessimistically worry about what ifs 2-3 years from now.

We've got enough to be miserable at right now lol

Except it starts after next season. Matthews and Marner have NMCs kicking in July 1, 2023. Marner has a NMC for two years so the Leafs have less leverage with him.

I expect both will re-sign, but stuff happens.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

All the previous generations of stars, the outdated norm as examples.

And nobody is freaking out, just this nonsense these are good deals the Dubists actually still peddle. When the deals we signed the whole league was taken aback, talk other GM’s were made, agents loved Dubas the most, all these objective qualifies and yet here, it’s some debate.

Matthews could walk at 26, enjoy.

So instead you are choosing to compare him to previous generations of stars on the deals they signed after their 5 or 6 year deals expired? Or do you prefer to compare them to guys in this generation who are not on their level (or have signed deals that resemble Nylander's deal if they are on a similar level)?

Your desperate gaslighting attempts and denial of reality to find any conceivable way to slag on Dubas is the only thing creating a "debate", and it is not even really much of a debate because your entire basis is flimsy at best and downright non-existent or factually incorrect at worst. You would get laughed out of any legitimate debate.

But enjoy spewing your BS and being completely miserable about your made up reality.

 

[socko]

Except it starts after next season. Matthews and Marner have NMCs kicking in July 1, 2023. Marner has a NMC for two years so the Leafs have less leverage with him.

I expect both will re-sign, but stuff happens.

These same guys who took Dubas to the cleaners years ago are all going to get another chance at it. Buckle up and brace for impact.

 

[SeaOfBlue]

Except it starts after next season. Matthews and Marner have NMCs kicking in July 1, 2023. Marner has a NMC for two years so the Leafs have less leverage with him.

I expect both will re-sign, but stuff happens.

Then why did the toxicity start 3 years ago? There have been people whining about it like Matthews already had one foot out the door back in February 2019. What has he said or done which suggests he will not re-sign? What suggests he will be different than the countless other stars who have signed 5 or 6 year deals only to re-sign?

At this point, the entire motivating factor is "I hate Dubas, Dubas is stupid and sucks at negotiating and they are going to leave because he didn't sign for 8 years" but I would fully bet that if it was Lou who signed the same deal, they would not say ****. This despite Lou pushing young stars to leave as soon as they hit UFA at an unprecedented rate as a GM.