Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[Stephen]

Defense is 100x better, have no clue how anyone can look at what he inherited and think otherwise.

We should be giving some credit to Keefe here then if you want to say Matthews and Marner grew and that is why the team is better.


Just a general question to people. How many people consider Ken Holland a good GM since he is getting some results right now?

I think there are different kinds of GM's who are better at different phases of a team's contention.

Ken Holland was sort of around the Red Wings by committee when they were being built up in the late 80s and early 90s with other hockey lifers like Jim Devellano (absolute elite builder from the Islanders dynasty) Bryan Murray, Scotty Bowman. Holland later inherited the GM role from this group.

His greatest strength was relying on European scouting when it was still relatively overlooked and lucked out. He is a guy who can be judicious in adding a veteran here and there to balance out a roster. You can see that in the Shanahan deal, the Larry Murphy to Detroit, building the 2002 Wings teams up with veterans, and the 2008 and 2009 Wings cup/finals runs. Evander Kane is also a decent example of his willingness to add something here and there.

Generally, I wouldn't call him a great program builder from scratch, and he's extremely conservative when it comes to keeping the core intact but he's a good custodian and has a good sense of adding this and that to the team chemistry and balance. I'd also say he's past his best before date.

With Kyle, I think he's almost too focused on translating this Pep Guardiola Manchester City, possession football into an on ice vision. For all the good he does, his weaknesses might be Holland's strengths, which is how to surround a good core that's already in place.

For me, I prefer the skill game and individual star talent Kyle brings to the table, but I've also learned to appreciate a lot of the "intangibles" just because this version of the Leafs just always doesn't have enough of it. There are a lot of low hanging fruit old school elements they could embrace more and I think they'd have more success.

 

[DarkKnight]

For me, I prefer the skill game and individual star talent Kyle brings to the table, but I've also learned to appreciate a lot of the "intangibles" just because this version of the Leafs just always doesn't have enough of it. There are a lot of low hanging fruit old school elements they could embrace more and I think they'd have more success.

Here’s the thing there too though, he inherited the skill. Matthews, Marner, Willie and Reilly, our top four skilled players all drafted by others, all star talent he had nothing to do with. This is why I find OP’s title hilarious, he was literally gifted the most enviable high skill imaginable, the antithesis of a tough situation relatively speaking. Any GM can fill out a roster with grit and intangibles, but you need the horses, that’s the rarity everyone craves so badly and he was given them on a platter.

 

[Nylanderthal]

And you somehow think Kyle 'Spreadsheet' Dubious's signings are on Lou?!?!

Well sage Lou gave Kyle the advice of “if you have time use it” and put it on display by holding off nylander extension talks to sign geriatric Marleau who also helped to show the kids to chase the money. Obviously the contracts are on Kyle but it’s very disingenuous to suggest he walked into a prime situation.
Lou walked into a prime situation

 

[Stephen]

Here’s the thing there too though, he inherited the skill. Matthews, Marner, Willie and Reilly, our top four skilled players all drafted by others, all star talent he had nothing to do with. This is why I find OP’s title hilarious, he was literally gifted the most enviable high skill imaginable, the antithesis of a tough situation relatively speaking. Any GM can fill out a roster with grit and intangibles, but you need the horses, that’s the rarity everyone craves so badly and he was given them on a platter.

Yeah, I don't want to relitigate Dubas' inheritance too much, other than to say if he was razor focused on bringing in affordable veterans with recent, cup winning or deep finals run experience, committed to building with size on the blueline as a policy and playing a harder, simpler north-south game that doesn't need to be reinvented in the playoffs, we'd probably have more playoff success.

 

[Nylanderthal]

Here’s the thing there too though, he inherited the skill. Matthews, Marner, Willie and Reilly, our top four skilled players all drafted by others, all star talent he had nothing to do with. This is why I find OP’s title hilarious, he was literally gifted the most enviable high skill imaginable, the antithesis of a tough situation relatively speaking. Any GM can fill out a roster with grit and intangibles, but you need the horses, that’s the rarity everyone craves so badly and he was given them on a platter.

He was AGM CO-GM or just plain GM for every big ticket on the books

 

[DarkKnight]

He was AGM CO-GM or just plain GM for every big ticket on the books

What does the even mean in relation to my comment? Are you arguing he botched the RFA, no leverage contracts with young stars who hadn’t done Jack squat? Agreed.

BTW, Costco has a deal on candles for your Dubas shrine at home.

 

[Gabriel426]

What tests? Honestly, I really want to know what tests did Dubas passed?
Dubas became GM of a team that was pretty much a top 7 teams in the League and got out of the first round in two straight years and now the team is still a top 7 in the League and got out of the first round in four straight years under him as GM.
Dubas failed to build a team that take the next step.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I've been as critical as anyone the last few years but we lost game 7 by one goal to the best team in the league, that's a much better performance then the previous losses. It's not a "moral victory", it's not an "accomplishment", it's just a simple fact that can be added to everything else we know about this team.

Just curious, what if we win the cup next year, or at least make the finals? Will all you people who say Dubas sucks change your mind?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's too early to give Dubas a final grade because he's not done yet.

 

[rocketman588]

Well sage Lou gave Kyle the advice of “if you have time use it” and put it on display by holding off nylander extension talks to sign geriatric Marleau who also helped to show the kids to chase the money. Obviously the contracts are on Kyle but it’s very disingenuous to suggest he walked into a prime situation.
Lou walked into a prime situation

Dubas really took that to heart when he panic signed JT to rush the rebuild

 

[DarkKnight]

I've been as critical as anyone the last few years but we lost game 7 by one goal to the best team in the league, that's a much better performance then the previous losses. It's not a "moral victory", it's not an "accomplishment", it's just a simple fact that can be added to everything else we know about this team.

Just curious, what if we win the cup next year, or at least make the finals? Will all you people who say Dubas sucks change your mind?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's too early to give Dubas a final grade because he's not done yet.

Isn’t it the Dubas apologists giving him grades and test scores or am I in the wrong thread? I’ve given him an incomplete and put him on academic probation. Ive also bought the coach a U Haul and sublet his dorm room, but I’m weird that way, in that I don’t roll everyone back after another failure, it sends a terrible message.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

If I recall he had to offer Stamkos more because of the tax difference


Once he gave in to Nylander he was done.

How did he give in to Nylander? It's common knowledge that Nylander's camp called in the last half hour to settle at 6.9. His ask was 8.5

 

[DarkKnight]

How did he give in to Nylander? It's common knowledge that Nylander's camp called in the last half hour to settle at 6.9. His ask was 8.5

Nylander himself called to accept Dubas’s offer, are you people for real. What agent let’s his client call to negotiate or lower their offer. My lord, common knowledge, hilarious. Common sense. This place, over and over the mythology.

Dubas went to Europe to make sure Willie was okay. Dubas went to New York to see his agent. NOBODY came to see him. He was so rolled by a RFA with no leverage, just a complete amateurish negotiation and then on top of it he pledges to never trade him.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Dubas really took that to heart when he panic signed JT to rush the rebuild

LOL, sure thing bud. Players that good almost never hit the market and signing him was a major coup. Has he refused to do so, he would have been roasted over the coals and with good reason. We added an elite center without giving up any assets, a huge win!

Isn’t it the Dubas apologists giving him grades and test scores or am I in the wrong thread? I’ve given him an incomplete and put him on academic probation. Ive also bought the coach a U Haul and sublet his dorm room, but I’m weird that way, in that I don’t roll everyone back after another failure, it sends a terrible message.

I don't know how to define Dubas apologist so I don't know who they are or what they are saying. I don't understand this dorm room stuff either, sorry.

As far as "roll everyone back", there's turnover every year no matter who's in charge, no worries there.

Nylander himself called to accept Dubas’s offer, are you people for real. What agent let’s his client call to negotiate or lower their offer. My lord, common knowledge, hilarious. Common sense. This place, over and over the mythology.

Dubas went to Europe to make sure Willie was okay. Dubas went to New York to see his agent. NOBODY came to see him. He was so rolled by a RFA with no leverage, just a complete amateurish negotiation and then on top of it he pledges to never trade him.

Yup, Nylander held out until the last minute but then caved. Good for Dubas for holding firm. He blew it with the Marner contract which is a shame though.

 

[Antropovsky]

Tough for me.... he inherited his core. His best acquisitions, Tavares, Brodie and Giordano are local and wanted to come home. Spezza and Simmonds wanted to come home. Five players who wanted to come to Toronto. He has lost several players who are playing big roles for different teams, Brown, Kadri, Moore and Hyman.

He did good in the Bunting acquisition.

He seems to have done excellent drafting but we still don't know just how well. Not that impressive imo.

 

[WTFMAN99]

He was put in charge at a tough time where he had to sign his star rfa's. The person he replaced which we were told was a major mistake had the chance to sign Nylander the summer before but decided the priority was near retirement Marleau at 6.5. He also had to improve the D core which again neither Burke, now looking for a new job.... again in Nonis, and Lou never could. He was able to sign his rfa's at higher amounts than expected which should be on Lou because he's shown here and NY he lets agents run over him. He improved the D core and pretty much revamped the entire D core except for Rielly. Sandin he drafted along with Dubas's development system made Holl into an NHL player. Liljegren was drafted by Lou but his development was in Dubas's system so thats a Dubas piece really.
Covid ruined some plans but he has done a great job adding pieces under a flat cap.

He just needs playoff success but the lack there of isn't on him. He has improved the team in difficult circimstances from Covid to cleaning up mistakes from other GM's. He inherited a team with young stars who needed new deals and a flawed up and coming team and done great things with it.

Kyle Dubass traded Kadri for Kerfoot.

That alone gives him an F on the test

Dubas has had the team for 4 years at this point and has had his coach in place for the last 3 years.

Dubas and Keefe own the CBJ, MTL & TBL failures.

The mental gymnastics to discredit Lou on the Liljegren pick is also crazy.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Nylander himself called to accept Dubas’s offer, are you people for real. What agent let’s his client call to negotiate or lower their offer. My lord, common knowledge, hilarious. Common sense. This place, over and over the mythology.

Dubas went to Europe to make sure Willie was okay. Dubas went to New York to see his agent. NOBODY came to see him. He was so rolled by a RFA with no leverage, just a complete amateurish negotiation and then on top of it he pledges to never trade him.

Notice how I said Nylanders camp. If they hadn't called in the last half hour, he was going to be sitting for the rest of the year which wasn't doing either side any favors.

And yes it was common knowledge as that's what was reported and has been discussed on here a lot.

It was reported that Dubas' initial offer was 6M. Nylander's ask was 8.5 which was the Draisiatl contract. They settled at 6.9, which is closer to Dubas' offer. That's how negotiations work. One side starts low, the other starts high and you find a middle ground.

If you want to look at caving, the Marner contract is the one Dubas caved on. There was 0 sacrifice from Marners camp on that deal and he got at least 1.5M more than his comparables.

 

[nuck]

How did he give in to Nylander? It's common knowledge that Nylander's camp called in the last half hour to settle at 6.9. His ask was 8.5

Maybe I am missing something because its been a long time since I looked so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But the cap hit is $6.9 and yet actual salary $45M per capfriendly so that is $7.5 per. Plus $24M in signing bonuses that almost no other club in the league could have touched. His comps were Pasta and Forsberg, who with indexing for the cap increase would have been around $6.9M and $6.5M respectively without the generous annual bonus's being considered on top.

And no reduction for the 1/3 of a season that he sat. So 1/3 of a $7.5M season is about $400k per contract year.

 

[rocketman588]

I mean he also caved on Mathews in terms of length, bonus and the last year nmc.

That nmc has the chance to absolutely f*** the franchise

No matter how you look at it were blowing it up after next year anyways. We can't afford the raises we're going to have to give Willie and AM so one is going to have to go unless we're "self-rentaling" our prime assets

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Maybe I am missing something because its been a long time since I looked so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But the cap hit is $6.9 and yet actual salary $45M per capfriendly so that is $7.5 per. Plus $24M in signing bonuses that almost no other club in the league could have touched. His comps were Pasta and Forsberg, who with indexing for the cap increase would have been around $6.9M and $6.5M respectively without the generous annual bonus's being considered on top.

And no reduction for the 1/3 of a season that he sat. So 1/3 of a $7.5M season is about $400k per contract year.

I'm not sure how that works with bonuses but cap friendly shows his cap hit at 6.96M. I would think that offering bonuses is a way for the Leafs to have some sort of advantage/incentive to keep players here. Similar to how teams that don't have a state tax have an advantage. That's just me guessing though.

I mentioned Draisaitl because at the time it was reported that Nylander wanted the deal that Draisaitl got.

 

[ACC1224]

Notice how I said Nylanders camp. If they hadn't called in the last half hour, he was going to be sitting for the rest of the year which wasn't doing either side any favors.

And yes it was common knowledge as that's what was reported and has been discussed on here a lot.

It was reported that Dubas' initial offer was 6M. Nylander's ask was 8.5 which was the Draisiatl contract. They settled at 6.9, which is closer to Dubas' offer. That's how negotiations work. One side starts low, the other starts high and you find a middle ground.

If you want to look at caving, the Marner contract is the one Dubas caved on. There was 0 sacrifice from Marners camp on that deal and he got at least 1.5M more than his comparables.

It’s irrelevant who called who, at some point Dubas would have called because as you say it was no good having him sit out the season.
What did Nylander lose by sitting out?

 

[WTFMAN99]

I mean he also caved on Mathews in terms of length, bonus and the last year nmc.

That nmc has the chance to absolutely f*** the franchise

No matter how you look at it were blowing it up after next year anyways. We can't afford the raises we're going to have to give Willie and AM so one is going to have to go unless we're "self-rentaling" our prime assets

McDavid, 12.5M for 8 years
Eichel 10M for 8 years
Matthews.....5 years 11 whatever the hell AAV.

No one will convince me the deal shouldn't have been 8 years at 11-11.75M range.

5 years should have been around 8-9M

 

[mikeyz]

I've been as critical as anyone the last few years but we lost game 7 by one goal to the best team in the league, that's a much better performance then the previous losses. It's not a "moral victory", it's not an "accomplishment", it's just a simple fact that can be added to everything else we know about this team.

Just curious, what if we win the cup next year, or at least make the finals? Will all you people who say Dubas sucks change your mind?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's too early to give Dubas a final grade because he's not done yet.

LMFAO. Dude, let’s focus on winning a f***ing round first shall we?? Lol. Forget this cup talk. Baby steps.

But, to answer your question. Yes. I will be at the front of the line. But, it’s a pipe dream though if you ask me.

 

[Menzinger]

Maybe I am missing something because its been a long time since I looked so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But the cap hit is $6.9 and yet actual salary $45M per capfriendly so that is $7.5 per. Plus $24M in signing bonuses that almost no other club in the league could have touched. His comps were Pasta and Forsberg, who with indexing for the cap increase would have been around $6.9M and $6.5M respectively without the generous annual bonus's being considered on top.

And no reduction for the 1/3 of a season that he sat. So 1/3 of a $7.5M season is about $400k per contract year.

Bob McKenzie explained it on Twitter when it was signed His actual take home money over the course of the contract is 41ish mil (6.9x6). It has to be listed as 45 mil due to the way contracts are filed with the NHL, but he didn't actually get that amount of money.

 

[Racer88]

I've been as critical as anyone the last few years but we lost game 7 by one goal to the best team in the league, that's a much better performance then the previous losses. It's not a "moral victory", it's not an "accomplishment", it's just a simple fact that can be added to everything else we know about this team.

Just curious, what if we win the cup next year, or at least make the finals? Will all you people who say Dubas sucks change your mind?

I guess what I'm saying is that it's too early to give Dubas a final grade because he's not done yet.

I will100% change my mind but right now I think he sucks

I'm not sure how that works with bonuses but cap friendly shows his cap hit at 6.96M. I would think that offering bonuses is a way for the Leafs to have some sort of advantage/incentive to keep players here. Similar to how teams that don't have a state tax have an advantage. That's just me guessing though.

I mentioned Draisaitl because at the time it was reported that Nylander wanted the deal that Draisaitl got.

Draisaitl is twice the player that Willy is

 

[ShaneFalco]

LMFAO. Dude, let’s focus on winning a f***ing round first shall we?? Lol. Forget this cup talk. Baby steps.

But, to answer your question. Yes. I will be at the front of the line. But, it’s a pipe dream though if you ask me.

It's funny the fans dying for success will gladly eat crow if this team ever does anything, yet the Dubas fans woukd never admit that perhaps he's not the answer here. Ever