Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[LeafGrief]

Yup loved the signing at the time. Thought it would make us contenders. Times changed, we still aren't, but Dubas hasn't been willing to look a the cap allocation and make adjustments. In his own words he's staked his career on the core 4.
I also seem to recall Dubas meeting with the three amigos before signing JT, and they were all on board. Except when it came to their own contracts

The way the contracts turned out was such a bummer. Marner in particular still leaves such a sour taste in my mouth. Overall, I think we honestly came out of it pretty okay in that only JT is overpaid and at least it's not crippling. That's the crux of the core 4 issue though, is that it might just be too much cap tied in too few when the playoffs roll around.

But I do give Dubas credit for adjusting literally everything else about the team. He may have staked his career on the big4, but I look at our defense and think I'd like him to be the one who handles the shakeup.

 

[Dreakmur]

Lol around here it’s probably best to take the doom post and the rose colour post and park yourself in the middle. That’s the best odds for being right.

Yup. If you ever find yourself agreeing with 100% of what anyone else says or does, you lack basic critical thinking skills.

 

[The Management]

I'm still licking my wounds.

After much thought, what I think this management group needs to do is go back and study the tapes and then study them again and again. There were games with Tampa where we were clearly the better team and it was reflected on the scoresheet. But there were games where we got absolutely pummeled and were out of the running after twenty minutes. Can't get caved in like that.

I don't hang this all on Dubas, but he needs to use this off-season to diagnose the shortcomings with this club in a clinical fashion.

 

[ACC1224]

Lol around here it’s probably best to take the doom post and the rose colour post and park yourself in the middle. That’s the best odds for being right.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

What makes you think Lou wouldn't have signed JT? He tried so sign him when he took the NYI job so not getting this at all.

i think Lou signing JT when they had a different cap situation than we did makes the whole situation tricky. Would a new GM going into a job not offer their best player a contract and piss off the fans?

You can say what you want about Lou...when it comes to 3rd and 4th liners he seems to be worse at contracts than he is star players. Remember when everyone was clowning him for signing Anders Lee to that deal that everyone said was horrific? It didn't turn out too bad (so far).

I seriously doubt Lou would have broken the bank for JT had he stayed here. He offered Stamkos the same $8.5M that he got from TB. Why would he pay more for an inferior player?

 

[Trapper]

Yup. If you ever find yourself agreeing with 100% of what anyone else says or does, you lack basic critical thinking skills.

I like this post but I’m afraid to agree with it 100%.

 

[Dekes For Days]

They are when your GM’s negotiating skills are a weak as wet paper towel………and I’m not talking about the good bounty paper towel.

1. Dubas has demonstrated good negotiating ability, and his post-ELC contracts are consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts throughout the cap era.
2. No, they still wouldn't be. The worst negotiator in the world would still know something as basic as the fact that UFA contracts and post-ELC contracts are not comparable.

 

[Brobust]

What I see people doing with Tavares is basically what people did with Mitch Marner last offseason. Fantasizing what they'd do with the cap space. Guess what, you're not finding a PPG 2C with that cap space.

Tavares is about $2M overpaid. And if he didn't have to play the grinder role while Nylander spins in circles waiting for a pass, he'd probably be worth the full value of his contract.

 

[Hoglund4MvP]

The only posters who are right are the ones that like matthews marner nylander and tavares, and dislike Dubas and Keefe running the team. Everyone else is just sabotaging the team.

Look like Nylander will unfortunately be made the scapegoat for Dubas being a mediocre GM.

 

[Mess]

Every single GM in Dubas’ position does exactly what he did. Players of Tavares ilk simply don’t get to free agency historically and he wanted to play here and took less than offered elsewhere to do so.

Hopefully you don't feel this same way when every single GM in Dubas position does exactly what he did. Players like Matthews ilk simply don't get to free agency historically and now you're hoping and praying he wants to play here, and he takes less than offered elsewhere to do so.

Will you be defending Dubas as vigorously then when some other GM does what he did a steal away a prized UFA when the shoe is on the other foot?

 

[Dekes For Days]

He offered Stamkos the same $8.5M that he got from TB. Why would he pay more for an inferior player?

Reports had Leafs offering considerably more than 8.5m. I believe it was reported in the 10m range, which is essentially the Tavares contract when cap-adjusted. And Stamkos was unquestionably worse than Tavares at time of signing.

 

[Mess]

What I see people doing with Tavares is basically what people did with Mitch Marner last offseason. Fantasizing what they'd do with the cap space. Guess what, you're not finding a PPG 2C with that cap space.

Tavares is about $2M overpaid. And if he didn't have to play the grinder role while Nylander spins in circles waiting for a pass, he'd probably be worth the full value of his contract.

Nazem Kadri was Leafs 2nd line centre at the time of JT signing, and he just put up in 71 games 28 goals 59 assists 87 points [= 1.22 PPG] and he did it for mere $4.5 mil.

He was signed to a Cap friendly 6 year deal at $4.5 mil by the previous GM and produced multiple 32 goals seasons in TO before his Cap was too big to fit Tavares in to his position at #2C.

This season Tavares put up in 79 games 27 goals 49 assists 76 points for $11 mil Cap. Even if JT Is $2 mil overpaid that makes him a $9 mil cap player which still equals 2 X what Kadri makes.

John Tavares was drafted #1OA in 2009 draft and Kadri was draft 6 spots later at #7OA.

Sometimes the grass is not always greener.

With Kadri at $4.5 mil and Nylander at $7 mil it would have allowed for another $6.5 mil winger to ride shotgun with them for the same cap JT & WN consume now.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Reports had Leafs offering considerably more than 8.5m. I believe it was reported in the 10m range, which is essentially the Tavares contract when cap-adjusted. And Stamkos was unquestionably worse than Tavares at time of signing.

I would check your sources. I have a friend who knows someone at MLSE and he told me the reason Stamkos took off in a huff was the lowball offer from Lou ($8.5m). It could be that Lou knew Stamkos had no intention of coming here and wanted to drive up the price for himself. It could be that Lou also knew we were far from 1 player away from getting good too. In the end though...I would with hindsight have preferred Stamkos over JT. At the time I thought JT was better until I realized how slow a skater he really was after suiting up for us.

 

[nuck]

The only posters who are right are the ones that like matthews marner nylander and tavares, and dislike Dubas and Keefe running the team. Everyone else is just sabotaging the team.

Look like Nylander will unfortunately be made the scapegoat for Dubas being a mediocre GM.

Not a scapegoat really. He lit the fuse for the big 3 contracts and should have been dealt as soon as it was clear he was going to hold out. Whether KD had moved him then or now it makes sense. If Dubas keeps him it just shows he is a slave to a strategy born when he expected to have millions more to work with and refuses to adjust. Mediocrity only results if Willie is kept and the top heavy lineup fails again.

Or worse yet the club fails to win next pmayoff, and they cant afford to resign Nylander because they have no high end players signed to value contracts.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Nazem Kadri was Leafs 2nd line centre at the time of JT signing, and he just put up in 71 games 28 goals 59 assists 87 points [= 1.22 PPG] and he did it for mere $4.5 mil.

He was signed to a Cap friendly 6 year deal at $4.5 mil by the previous GM and produced multiple 32 goals seasons in TO before his Cap was too big to fit Tavares in to his position at #2C.

This season Tavares put up in 79 games 27 goals 49 assists 76 points for $11 mil Cap. Even if JT Is $2 mil overpaid that makes him a $9 mil cap player which still equals 2 X what Kadri makes.

John Tavares was drafted #1OA in 2009 draft and Kadri was draft 6 spots later at #7OA.

Sometimes the grass is not always greener.

With Kadri at $4.5 mil and Nylander at $7 mil it would have allowed for another $6.5 mil winger to ride shotgun with them for the same cap JT & WN consume now.

I don't know why your logic doesn't resonate with some people. To me it's obvious and you put it very succinctly and clearly. We paid for a position we didn't need and paid too much for a guy who everyone knew would be a liability in the later years of the deal. Here we are....

 

[nuck]

I would check your sources. I have a friend who knows someone at MLSE and he told me the reason Stamkos took off in a huff was the lowball offer from Lou ($8.5m). It could be that Lou knew Stamkos had no intention of coming here and wanted to drive up the price for himself. It could be that Lou also knew we were far from 1 player away from getting good too. In the end though...I would with hindsight have preferred Stamkos over JT. At the time I thought JT was better until I realized how slow a skater he really was after suiting up for us.

They had no Matthew's then so it would have made much more sense to overpay for Stammer. Lou was just too cheap.

 

[Drytoast]

Reports had Leafs offering considerably more than 8.5m. I believe it was reported in the 10m range, which is essentially the Tavares contract when cap-adjusted. And Stamkos was unquestionably worse than Tavares at time of signing.

I would have had them as close to the same tbh. And yes. Stamkos was offered around 10 as well as a crazy merch deal with Canadian Tire.

He said no.

 

[Racer88]

Are you kidding? We were all thrilled. We gloated endlessly that SJ had offered 13m and JT had turned it down to come here. 11m was a completely reasonable deal for a UFA top10c in the league. He's not the same player today and that really sucks, but JT was an absolute coup at the time. It's wild seeing people dunk on it today like they knew all along. It's a disappointment and I wish we were okay with admitting that.

I was not Thrilled at the time. He was exactly what we didn’t need at the time.

 

[Racer88]

Lou pissed Marner off back when he was owed bonus money and it not given to him. So Marner made us pay when he became RFA.

Blame Lou for being a dick

Blame Dubas for being weak and giving in to Marner Not a supposed slight from the previous GM just like we can’t blame this core for the fact that we haven’t won a single round in 19 years

 

[ACC1224]

i think Lou signing JT when they had a different cap situation than we did makes the whole situation tricky. Would a new GM going into a job not offer their best player a contract and piss off the fans?

You can say what you want about Lou...when it comes to 3rd and 4th liners he seems to be worse at contracts than he is star players. Remember when everyone was clowning him for signing Anders Lee to that deal that everyone said was horrific? It didn't turn out too bad (so far).

I seriously doubt Lou would have broken the bank for JT had he stayed here. He offered Stamkos the same $8.5M that he got from TB. Why would he pay more for an inferior player?

If I recall he had to offer Stamkos more because of the tax difference

Blame Dubas for being weak and giving in to Marner Not a supposed slight from the previous GM just like we can’t blame this core for the fact that we haven’t won a single round in 19 years

Once he gave in to Nylander he was done.

 

[Drytoast]

Blame Dubas for being weak and giving in to Marner Not a supposed slight from the previous GM just like we can’t blame this core for the fact that we haven’t won a single round in 19 years

We are not trading the god damn core...lol. what are you? wanting to go in full tank mode and start over? lol

 

[Dekes For Days]

I would check your sources. I have a friend who knows someone at MLSE and he told me the reason Stamkos took off in a huff was the lowball offer from Lou ($8.5m). It could be that Lou knew Stamkos had no intention of coming here and wanted to drive up the price for himself. It could be that Lou also knew we were far from 1 player away from getting good too. In the end though.

Everything I look up supports the 9.5-10m range for the Leafs, and I can't find anything referencing an 8.5m offer outside of Tampa. Stamkos didn't like Lou's pitch, but that wasn't because of the amount offered. And Lou wanted to sign him - he did the whole spiel and got Canadian Tire in and everything. I'm not really sure why Stamkos would be "in a huff" for an offer that he ended up accepting either? I do remember how Tampa refused to match the higher amounts, and then Stamkos still signed there and everybody was surprised.

I would have had them as close to the same tbh.

I think people tend to forget that he had fallen off quite a bit from his peak, and was coming off a 64 point season. He was also not great defensively, and had been playing more and more as a winger. Stamkos has had a bit of a resurgence in older age (with significant help by Kucherov), but at the time of signing, Tavares was definitely better by a decent amount.

And yes. Stamkos was offered around 10 as well as a crazy merch deal with Canadian Tire.
He said no.

Yeah that's how I remember it too.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Everything I look up supports the 9.5-10m range for the Leafs, and I can't find anything referencing an 8.5m offer outside of Tampa. Stamkos didn't like Lou's pitch, but that wasn't because of the amount offered. And Lou wanted to sign him - he did the whole spiel and got Canadian Tire in and everything. I'm not really sure why Stamkos would be "in a huff" for an offer that he ended up accepting either? I do remember how Tampa refused to match the higher amounts, and then Stamkos still signed there and everybody was surprised.

Why do you think he would leave in a huff if they offered him $10M and endorsements? It was all over the news that he left in a huff and signed the next day in TB. He was trying to use Lou IMO and he got it thrown in his face with the "insulting" TB offer. It just makes sense...plus I heard it from a guy who would know the truth.

 

[mikeyz]

the whole reason people are calling out the dubas-keefe duo is lack of playoff success and them patting themselves on the back like they accomplished something huge

If leafs won in playoffs we wouldn’t be having any of these discussions but here we are…..

This is bang on.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Why do you think he would leave in a huff if they offered him $10M and endorsements? It was all over the news that he left in a huff and signed the next day in TB. He was trying to use Lou IMO and he got it thrown in his face with the "insulting" TB offer. It just makes sense...plus I heard it from a guy who would know the truth.

I don't remember him being in a huff. He just wasn't impressed with the presentation. Supposedly they put on a flashy show with the mayor and Canadian Tire executives and all that to push the whole benefits outside of hockey angle, but ignored an actual vision for the hockey team, and his place in it. I still don't understand why you think he'd be insulted by an offer he accepted. I think this guy you know is just pretending to know more than he actually does, especially since it contradicts what was reported by pretty much everybody.

Either way, it doesn't really matter, as pretty much all evidence suggests that Lou would have offered the same contract to Tavares if he had remained. And that probably would have been the best thing he would have done.