Despite major challanges, Kyle Dubas has passed the tests

[ToneDog]

This is exactly the case. The Leafs success is all about the growth of Matthews and Marner to great players and Nylander to pretty darn good. Dubas has made depth and defense a little better and goaltending is worse. And the argument could be made that coaching is worse.

And how much depth, picks/prospects and money correcting his mistakes has that cost us ?? We have 3 picks in this year's draft. He has traded picks from the 2023 and 2024 drafts and our goaltending situation is a complete sham. Yet he gets another kick at the can.

 

[Shooter2x]

Look at all the talent he has dumped in order to pay 4 guys who have not gotten it done in 4 years together. COVID crippled the cap but how do you give Tavares 11 knowing the 3 amigos were coming up for new deals and were not going to leave a penny on the table and you had Z and Marleau's contracts to deal with ?? The only test he has passed in getting his G2 permit.

Dubas was this shiny new modern toy with his progressive and analytical approaches, but almost every organization has caught up in this regard. Everything Dubas offers, you can get from internal teams now.

It's really a joke they're so scared to move on. When it comes to everything else, there is nothing special about Dubas. He's even prone to desperation moves that bite you in the ass later like the Marleau and Foligno trades (because he leaves physicality to the last minute).

Carolina saw the value in eating 6 mil of their cap to get that first round pick. Why on earth did we not do the same? Where is AJ and Kapanen? Freed up all that cap space for nothing. We had to further end up cap dumping AJ and they didn't even like Kapanen.

The smart play was to sell high on AJ and Kap right then and there and keep Marleau since he comes with your first round pick. Before I get shot with the "hindsight is 20/20" well yeah, it's the GMs job to make the smart decisions in the moment, not mine. Do moves where we can look back a year or 2 later and say "yeah, we won that one".

It's all losses on top of losses justified by the "it made sense at the time". Doing moves brute force like that is what average to mediocre GM's do. So people need to stop acting like Dubas is some genius.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Bringing in someone externally for a position isn't necessarily the same as moving the pieces around you already have. No reason why I have to agree with everything Shanahan does.

Having to start interviews to find a best candidate out of all possible candidates for a position is not the same as scanning your current employees you're loyal towards and giving them promotions. You're a smart guy I don't think I need to elaborate why it's different.

Shanahan will get the job done if it's time to find someone fresh.

Not sure what exactly Shanahan's duties are but as far as things he does that impact the product on ice, hiring the GM I'd guess is well over 90% of it.

He hired Lou, and then he replaced him with Dubas. And as a fan who only cares about the on ice product, I would judge him on those 2 hires, period.

Dubas was this shiny new modern toy with his progressive and analytical approaches, but almost every organization has caught up in this regard. Everything Dubas offers, you can get from internal teams now.

It's really a joke they're so scared to move on. When it comes to everything else, there is nothing special about Dubas. He's even prone to desperation moves that bite you in the ass later like the Marleau and Foligno trades (because he leaves physicality to the last minute).

You mean like when he traded away our top picks and prospects at the TDL in a desperate attempt to "keep his job" like many predicted he would do?

 

[Drytoast]

Must be a tough time to be gifted 3 generational forwards and an upper tier puck moving D.

I feel really bad for him he had to come into a job as NHL GM and negotiate contracts, no nhl GM has ever had to resign an RFA

That's why he signed Matthews and Marner to horrific deals (5 years for AM was stupid) and gave a nmc to Matthews the last year of his I guess

3 generational? 1. Marner is not on Matthews teir and Matthews had a dominant season and a decent playoffs but he wasnt DOMINANT like McDavid is this year in the post season. And I sure as shit hope you are not referring to Nylander.

So Matthews is a teir underneath McDavid. When he unleashes his full potential in the playoffs...we win.

 

[Tufted Titmouse]

This thread, and the cringe "Tampa beat Florida in 4 so that justifies our loss" takes are just embarrassing.

This fanbase has some serious mental trauma, man.

 

[GoonieFace]

This team is one injury away from disaster as well. They simply don’t have the depth to offset that. Also a by product of allocating all that cap space to 4 players. Imagine being cap poor and signing Mrazek to a ridiculous contract. Good GM’ing

 

[ACC1224]

This thread, and the cringe "Tampa beat Florida in 4 so that justifies our loss" takes are just embarrassing.

This fanbase has some serious mental trauma, man.

You already know that should Tampa win again the Leafs will be anointed the 2nd best team in the league. Some will even push it that they are the top team since the Refs stole the series from them.

 

[Walshy7]

Look at all the talent he has dumped in order to pay 4 guys who have not gotten it done in 4 years together. COVID crippled the cap but how do you give Tavares 11 knowing the 3 amigos were coming up for new deals and were not going to leave a penny on the table and you had Z and Marleau's contracts to deal with ?? The only test he has passed in getting his G2 permit.

5 guys, rielly is on 7.5 and has failed more than any of them.

edit: in fact i think 4 is right, 7M for Nylander is very much market rate for a secondary piece who can put up ppg with support

 

[Trapper]

What has Dubas passed?
If he inherited a regular season 105 point team, 4 years later he’s a 115 regular season point team. In those 4 seasons there has been an up and down fluctuation of points.

As far as playoffs go, 4 years ago the team couldn’t get past the 1st round. 4 years later the team can’t get past the 1st round. Ok.

Dubas hasn’t been terrible but he’s not the end all saviour some make out here. Some GMs are builders from scratch, some are good at maintaining status quo and some are good at finishing a product that has been assembled. If you fail at an important aspect on a yearly basis, at some point you probably need a new direction.

 

[notbias]

This is exactly the case. The Leafs success is all about the growth of Matthews and Marner to great players and Nylander to pretty darn good. Dubas has made depth and defense a little better and goaltending is worse. And the argument could be made that coaching is worse.

Defense is 100x better, have no clue how anyone can look at what he inherited and think otherwise.

We should be giving some credit to Keefe here then if you want to say Matthews and Marner grew and that is why the team is better.


Just a general question to people. How many people consider Ken Holland a good GM since he is getting some results right now?

 

[DraftSchmaft]

We should be giving some credit to Keefe here then if you want to say Matthews and Marner grew and that is why the team is better.

I can't with this board anymore.

 

[notbias]

I can't with this board anymore.

"Dubas is terrible and needs to be fired, he can't construct a team!"

'Keefe is terrible, he can't win with a poorly constructed team!"

Just choose who is at fault, I find it amazing they are both at fault with how bad they both are apparently.

 

[DueDiligence]

Defense is 100x better, have no clue how anyone can look at what he inherited and think otherwise.

We should be giving some credit to Keefe here then if you want to say Matthews and Marner grew and that is why the team is better.


Just a general question to people. How many people consider Ken Holland a good GM since he is getting some results right now?

If Holland was only being judged for his work in Edmonton he probably would have been fired before this year. But he is given the benefit of doubt because of 3 Stanley Cups with the Wings.

"Dubas is terrible and needs to be fired, he can't construct a team!"

'Keefe is terrible, he can't win with a poorly constructed team!"

Just choose who is at fault, I find it amazing they are both at fault with how bad they both are apparently.

They're not bad nor good..... just average.

 

[ER89]

You already know that should Tampa win again the Leafs will be anointed the 2nd best team in the league. Some will even push it that they are the top team since the Refs stole the series from them.

this team is full of excuses and ifs. The motto of the leafs should be if your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle.

Lot of ifs.

 

[egd27]

Defense is 100x better, have no clue how anyone can look at what he inherited and think otherwise.

We should be giving some credit to Keefe here then if you want to say Matthews and Marner grew and that is why the team is better.


Just a general question to people. How many people consider Ken Holland a good GM since he is getting some results right now?

This Ken Holland?

 

[ToneDog]

5 guys, rielly is on 7.5 and has failed more than any of them.

edit: in fact i think 4 is right, 7M for Nylander is very much market rate for a secondary piece who can put up ppg with support

I guess you can include Rielly, but he was a Lou signing. Going forward, it will be the 5 core guys.

Willie's initially contract looked bad but he has outperformed it.

One can argue a case for all 4 contracts individually. It is as a group that it hinders adding a strong supporting cast IMO.

 

[notbias]

This Ken Holland?

Ah yes, bring back Lou, he's won some cups too.

Yzerman is terrible, couldn't get Tampa over the hump.

This is why I laugh about people yelling "results!" without looking at how teams are constructed.

Bergevin was the second-best GM last year and got fired, we should have picked him up.

 

[ACC1224]

This Ken Holland?

Good hockey man there.
Has had his ups and downs like they all do but definitely more positives than negatives.

 

[Havoc]

Ah yes, bring back Lou, he's won some cups too.

What have we done since Lou left to still know we'd be worse if he stayed?

I don't want Lou either, but what I find interesting is how people can say with certainty these other GM's suck while at the same time ignore all the objective reasons that support Dubas is becoming overrated.

He blends in with the average right now, the whole genius appeal has worn off.

Matthews Marner Nylander progressing was guaranteed. Dubas and Keefe have nothing to do with it. If you're going to suggest they'd have regressed or remained stagnant without the current management, that's more nuts than people who are upset we re-signed Gio. They are the main reason we started to make the playoffs in 2016, and the main reason we still dominate the regular season today. Dubas has failed time and time again to insulate them properly so we can take the next step.

 

[ACC1224]

What have we done since Lou left to still know we'd be worse if he stayed?

I don't want Lou either, but what I find interesting is how people can say with certainty these other GM's suck while at the same time ignore all the objective reasons that support Dubas is becoming overrated.

He blends in with the average right now, the whole genius appeal has worn off.

Matthews Marner Nylander progressing was guaranteed. Dubas and Keefe have nothing to do with it. If you're going to suggest they'd have regressed or remained stagnant without the current management, that's more nuts than people who are upset we re-signed Gio. They are the main reason we started to make the playoffs in 2016, and the main reason we still dominate the regular season today. Dubas has failed time and time again to insulate them properly so we can take the next step.

Never understood the sentiment that if you are not a 100% Dubas supporter that must mean you want Lou Lam back. Such a stupid assumption.
I doubt there are more than 3 people who want him back.

 

[egd27]

Ah yes, bring back Lou, he's won some cups too.

Yzerman is terrible, couldn't get Tampa over the hump.

This is why I laugh about people yelling "results!" without looking at how teams are constructed.

Bergevin was the second-best GM last year and got fired, we should have picked him up.

Nothing but nonsense strawmen there Bias

You asked how many people consider Ken Holland a good GM........I answered pictorially and made no mention of Lou, Yzerman or Bergevin

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Never understood the sentiment that if you are not a 100% Dubas supporter that must mean you want Lou Lam back. Such a stupid assumption.
I doubt there are more than 3 people who want him back.

I just wish Lou stayed for an extra year or 2 to get better contracts for the kids and not sign JT. Had that happened and he passed the reigns over to Dubas..I would have been ok with it.

 

[ACC1224]

I just wish Lou stayed for an extra year or 2 to get better contracts for the kids and not sign JT. Had that happened and he passed the reigns over to Dubas..I would have been ok with it.

Yeah, I think you'll find many that think the same.

 

[notbias]

Nothing but nonsense strawmen there Bias

You asked how many people consider Ken Holland a good GM........I answered pictorially and made no mention of Lou, Yzerman or Bergevin

So you think Holland is a good GM? Posting a pic from the 90s requires me to guess what you mean, he has none of those pics from recent years.

I had to make a lot of assumptions based on your non-response, feel free to clarify your position.

I just wish Lou stayed for an extra year or 2 to get better contracts for the kids and not sign JT. Had that happened and he passed the reigns over to Dubas..I would have been ok with it.

He tried to sign Tavares though...

And didn't he offer more money?

 

[rocketman588]

3 generational? 1. Marner is not on Matthews teir and Matthews had a dominant season and a decent playoffs but he wasnt DOMINANT like McDavid is this year in the post season. And I sure as shit hope you are not referring to Nylander.

So Matthews is a teir underneath McDavid. When he unleashes his full potential in the playoffs...we win.

So your boy gave 11 mil to two players that don't deserve it.

Thanks for proving my point Dekes