"Depth Scoring" is the most tired discussion around the Maple Leafs.

[Ianturnedbull]

What is there to say really?

The system seems to be built on the premise that Matthews needs his cookies. After that it's Tavares who needs his cookies, then Nylander, then Marner, etc.

Players like Knies, Domi, Jarncrok, Bertuzzi all suffer because they get less ice time, less PP, etc.

In the playoffs it would be beneficial if the depth scored, but it's more beneficial if the stars are scoring.

Keefe will no doubt load up the top line like a minor league coach would in order to produce.

I'd love to see others contribute, but you can be sure they won't even get a chance.

Depth scoring issues? Sure. They don't get a chance so they don't score goals.

Click to read more...

 

[Martin Skoula]

Jarnkrok had his career high in goals and points here lol. Domi is scoring the exact same pace he does on every other team.

How much are third lines supposed to play and why is our bottom-6 apparently full of one-way players who need their hand held and gifted soft offensive minutes to not be totally useless?

 

[ToneDog]

Jarnkrok had his career high in goals and points here lol. Domi is scoring the exact same pace he does on every other team.

How much are third lines supposed to play and why is our bottom-6 apparently full of one-way players who need their hand held and gifted soft offensive minutes to not be totally useless?

Not true. I looked up his numbers and he was better than .5 PPG with Yotes (3/3 seasons), Habs (2/2 seasons), Jackets (1/2 seasons) and Hawks (1/1 seasons). He was less that .5 PPG with Dallas (20 games), Carolina (19 games), here (49 games) and one year in Columbus. Clearly, he would have better numbers if he was given time on PP1 and with better offensive players.

If I am Keefe, I tell JT that I need to get Bert and Domi going so he will get less PP1 time. At this point in year 6 of 7, it should not matter whether he gets 50, 60, 70 or 80 points. If it bothers him, he should not be captain.

 

[Confucius]

Not true. I looked up his numbers and he was better than .5 PPG with Yotes (3/3 seasons), Habs (2/2 seasons), Jackets (1/2 seasons) and Hawks (1/1 seasons). He was less that .5 PPG with Dallas (20 games), Carolina (19 games), here (49 games) and one year in Columbus. Clearly, he would have better numbers if he was given time on PP1 and with better offensive players.

If I am Keefe, I tell JT that I need to get Bert and Domi going so he will get less PP1 time. At this point in year 6 of 7, it should not matter whether he gets 50, 60, 70 or 80 points. If it bothers him, he should not be captain.

Well he still will have to justify his next 4 X 11 deal. lol! Make it happen Tre. lol!

 

[Buds17]

Not true. I looked up his numbers and he was better than .5 PPG with Yotes (3/3 seasons), Habs (2/2 seasons), Jackets (1/2 seasons) and Hawks (1/1 seasons). He was less that .5 PPG with Dallas (20 games), Carolina (19 games), here (49 games) and one year in Columbus. Clearly, he would have better numbers if he was given time on PP1 and with better offensive players.

If I am Keefe, I tell JT that I need to get Bert and Domi going so he will get less PP1 time. At this point in year 6 of 7, it should not matter whether he gets 50, 60, 70 or 80 points. If it bothers him, he should not be captain.

I'd try to evenly split the PP units (in personnel and TOI) before anything else.

 

[TMLBlueandWhite]

One thing ML$E has proven good at over the years is selling a shitty product.

Anybody can sell a good product. Selling one nobody NEEDS is a different story. It's even harder when nobody wants it.

Just look at Arizona.

No sane hockey person would build their team top heavy in effort to try and contend. Everything reeks of someone who doesn't care if they win. Just throw money at a few star players and hope they get lucky.

They're the ones selling all the jersey's.

If the rest of the team is garbage doesn't matter. ML$E spin doctors will sell fans a turd sandwich and call it a BLT. When really it shouldn't be about selling a shitty product.

It should be about not offering a shitty product to begin with.

 

[al secord]

A tired discussion that needed a new thread.

 

[authentic]

What is there to say really?

The system seems to be built on the premise that Matthews needs his cookies. After that it's Tavares who needs his cookies, then Nylander, then Marner, etc.

Players like Knies, Domi, Jarncrok, Bertuzzi all suffer because they get less ice time, less PP, etc.

In the playoffs it would be beneficial if the depth scored, but it's more beneficial if the stars are scoring.

Keefe will no doubt load up the top line like a minor league coach would in order to produce.

I'd love to see others contribute, but you can be sure they won't even get a chance.

Depth scoring issues? Sure. They don't get a chance so they don't score goals.

Bertuzzi hasn’t had a chance to score? Knies? Robertson is the only one who hasn’t been given a fair chance. Our depth absolutely sucks, plain and simple.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The premise is fundamentally incorrect, but even if it was correct, it would be the results creating the "system" more than the "system" creating the results.
We had no problem giving non-core 4 pieces minutes and opportunity in past years when they were good, had earned it, and could be relied on.
We have some rookies this year (including multiple acclimating to higher GP workloads), and a lot of our forward depth outside of that disappointed in their opportunities, don't PK, haven't earned more PP responsibility, and can't be relied on in defensive situations.

 

[GoonieFace]

The premise is fundamentally incorrect, but even if it was correct, it would be the results creating the "system" more than the "system" creating the results.
We had no problem giving non-core 4 pieces minutes and opportunity in past years when they were good, had earned it, and could be relied on.
We have some rookies this year (including multiple acclimating to higher GP workloads), and a lot of our forward depth outside of that disappointed in their opportunities, don't PK, haven't earned more PP responsibility, and can't be relied on in defensive situations.

 

[Arzak]

If I am Keefe, I tell JT that I need to get Bert and Domi going so he will get less PP1 time. At this point in year 6 of 7, it should not matter whether he gets 50, 60, 70 or 80 points. If it bothers him, he should not be captain.

JTs number would look ugly without PP1

 

[Martin Skoula]

Not true. I looked up his numbers and he was better than .5 PPG with Yotes (3/3 seasons), Habs (2/2 seasons), Jackets (1/2 seasons) and Hawks (1/1 seasons). He was less that .5 PPG with Dallas (20 games), Carolina (19 games), here (49 games) and one year in Columbus. Clearly, he would have better numbers if he was given time on PP1 and with better offensive players.

If I am Keefe, I tell JT that I need to get Bert and Domi going so he will get less PP1 time. At this point in year 6 of 7, it should not matter whether he gets 50, 60, 70 or 80 points. If it bothers him, he should not be captain.

So instead of our depth scoring more against the other teams depth, we replace one of our PP scorers with a worse PP scorer where we at best break even on the total amount of goals the team scores. Except it’s Domi getting the assist instead of Tavares, so now our depth scoring has “improved” on paper, even though that depth isn’t scoring against the other teams depth any more than they are now.

This is the coaching equivalent of a combover. The problem isn’t that you’re distributing your last 6 hairs in the wrong wrong way, the problem is the giant bald spot.

 

[ToneDog]

So instead of our depth scoring more against the other teams depth, we replace one of our PP scorers with a worse PP scorer where we at best break even on the total amount of goals the team scores. Except it’s Domi getting the assist instead of Tavares, so now our depth scoring has “improved” on paper, even though that depth isn’t scoring against the other teams depth any more than they are now.

This is the coaching equivalent of a combover. The problem isn’t that you’re distributing your last 6 hairs in the wrong wrong way, the problem is the giant bald spot.

Yes, but it could ignite Bert and Domi and if PP1 is neutered in the playoffs, you have options. Think big picture.

 

[ToneDog]

JTs number would look ugly without PP1

Screw Tavares' numbers. At this point, it does not matter how many points he gets. What matters is what they do in the playoffs. We need to wake up Bert and Domi and maybe throwing them a bone makes them feel like a bigger part of the team, rather than mercenaries.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I don't think Keefe coaches in a way that facilitates secondary scoring, over relying on The Big Four + Rielly to get things done offensively. The second powerplay unit may as well not even exist and the third line is lucky to see 13 minutes of ice time.

However there are also roster construction issues that are dragging down any potential secondary scoring. Bertuzzi has been a massive disappointment. Knies will be great but he's not used to playing this much and has plateaued this season. Robertson is also a rookie and has been in and out of the lineup and gets third line minutes. Domi is on pace for 40 points as a 3C which is fine but it's not going to blow the doors off anyone. Jarnkrok is on pace for 30 points which is in line with his career average so there's not much else to get out of him. Every fourth liner is offensively challenged and besides Rielly no other defenseman can move the puck or playmake like him.

Really though the biggest reason the lack of secondary scoring is more prominent this year is because of the lack of offence from our two top six LW spots. Bertuzzi and Knies are pacing for 35 and 31 points despite getting top six minutes. Bunting got 63 and 49 points playing in the top six his two seasons there, and Hyman in his last year paced for 62 points. Not getting top six production from players playing in your top six hurts way more than the fact that our third line is inconsistent and doesn't get much playing time.

The team is a bit nastier to be sure but secondary scoring is somehow even worse this year despite the fact that Treliving made it a point to address it in the offseason. Combine the lack of secondary scoring with the fact that the players we brought in are worse defensively than what went out and the decline of Brodie and Giordano and this is what you get. Mediocrity.

 

[Racer88]

JTs number would look ugly without PP1

They look ugly with it

 

[BraveCanadian]

Catering even more to Matthews is an automatic playoff failure.

You can't be a one-man or one line team in the playoffs and get anywhere because teams will key in on them and it is game over.

Not to mention, until now at least, Matthews hasn't shown he is the guy you want to hitch your wagon to in the playoffs, anyways.

 

[Menzinger]

Bertuzzi isn't scoring because of Keefe or lack of opportunity (the bulk of his time is spent in the top six, playing alongside far superior players), he can't finish to save his life this season - and that's on him.

Bunting had no issue producing, Jarnkrok does well given his usage, I think Domi has been fin too under that context. You shouldn't need 1st unit pp opportunity to be a useful depth player on any team

The rest have either disappointed or haven't lived up to expectations

 

[Strangle]

This team isn’t set up to have ‘depth scoring’

It’s not going to happen.

What they need is to limit goals to 3 or less every game

 

[HellasLEAF]

I'm actually more interested in our depth not getting scored on but the odd goal for is nice.

 

[darrylsittler27]

Let's start a poll. Who actually believes this team can win 2 rounds? I don't.

 

[Gilmour1996]

Let's start a poll. Who actually believes this team can win 2 rounds? I don't.

I don't even think they'll win 2 games in the playoffs.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

So instead of our depth scoring more against the other teams depth, we replace one of our PP scorers with a worse PP scorer where we at best break even on the total amount of goals the team scores. Except it’s Domi getting the assist instead of Tavares, so now our depth scoring has “improved” on paper, even though that depth isn’t scoring against the other teams depth any more than they are now.

This is the coaching equivalent of a combover. The problem isn’t that you’re distributing your last 6 hairs in the wrong wrong way, the problem is the giant bald spot.

This is the best analogy I've ever seen, bar none!

 

[Stephen]

It's too much of an NBA starting lineup and bench mentality on this team for my liking.

If the team was actually committed to spreading it around, there's no real reason why at various times Matthews, Marner, Nylander and Tavares can't be spread out on 3 or 4 separate lines and each attempt to uplift some of the depth guys, with 2 even PP units with the big guns spread out between them. Maybe everyone scores less individually but that production could be distributed more throughout the lineup, build an identity, make it harder to defend one or two units.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

One thing ML$E has proven good at over the years is selling a shitty product.

Anybody can sell a good product. Selling one nobody NEEDS is a different story. It's even harder when nobody wants it.

Just look at Arizona.

No sane hockey person would build their team top heavy in effort to try and contend. Everything reeks of someone who doesn't care if they win. Just throw money at a few star players and hope they get lucky.

They're the ones selling all the jersey's.

If the rest of the team is garbage doesn't matter. ML$E spin doctors will sell fans a turd sandwich and call it a BLT. When really it shouldn't be about selling a shitty product.

It should be about not offering a shitty product to begin with.

FYI heads up .. da Leafs were sold out and had a subscriber waiting list immediately after da cash box on Carlton was built .. my grandad had to wait 4 seasons to get his pair which went to my dad and then to me .. da product has varied in level of sh*t over many decades well before ml$e was even formed .. and so far it has never affected da waiting list which continues to grow .. i put my son on it 20 years ago and his name is still to be called although he is close to top now .. my dad bought me a pair in addition to his pair he got from his dad so we have 4 tickets now