Defining level of prospects | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

Defining level of prospects

Captain97

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Jan 31, 2017
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In trade threads we argue who is blue Chip, who is an A level propsect and who is a B level etc.

In My Mind a prospect ranked league wide
1-15 is blue Chip
15-40 is A
40-100 is b
So this breaks down to on average half the teams in the league have a blue chipper, if distribution was perfect almost every team would have a grade A prospect and on average every team has about 2 b prospects. Beyond that prospects don't hold a ton of value.
 
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Personally I see it a little differently, and rank it differently as there can be more than a certain number in each category. Don't mind my Leaf choosing, I just know them better and it's easier to rag on my own team.

Generational - McDavid, Crosby
- guy you know is going to be a franchise changer and the best player in the league before they even play.

Elite - Tavares, Hedman, Matthews
- A no doubt franchise player, who at worst turns into a 1st line/1st pairing guy.

Blue chip - Nylander, Draisaitl, Werenski
- 1st pairing/1st line "lock" with potential to be elite with small chance to disappoint/bust.

A prospect - Andersson, Glass, Liljegren
- 1st line/1st pairing upside, with potential to be elite, disappoint, or to outright bust.

B prospect - Dermott
- top-6/top-4 upside. Potential to get better, good chance at busting/not fulfilling potential.

C prospect - Rantanen
- top-9/bottom pair upside, potential to be better, great chance at busting

D prospect - Gauthier
- bottom line/7D upside, great bust chance

F prospect - Mattinen
- needs major improvement to ever become an NHL player, very high bust rate
 
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Personally I see it a little differently, and rank it differently as there can be more than a certain number in each category. Don't mind my Leaf choosing, I just know them better and it's easier to rag on my own team.

Generational - McDavid, Crosby
- guy you know is going to be a franchise changer and the best player in the league before they even play.

Elite - Tavares, Hedman, Matthews
- A no doubt franchise player, who at worst turns into a 1st line/1st pairing guy.

Blue chip - Nylander, Draisaitl, Werenski
- 1st pairing/1st line "lock" with potential to be elite with small chance to disappoint/bust.

A prospect - Andersson, Glass, Liljegren
- 1st line/1st pairing upside, with potential to be elite, disappoint, or to outright bust.

B prospect - Grundstrom
- top-6/top-4 upside. Potential to get better, good chance at busting/not fulfilling potential.

C prospect - F. Gauthier
- bottom 6/bottom pair upside, potential to be better, great chance at busting

D prospect - Mattinen
- needs major improvement to ever become an NHL player, very high bust rate.

This all seems reasonable, the only problem is fans always overvalue how good their prospects will be in trade proposals, so in an attempt to establish consistent value using sources like the athletics top 50 prospects to determine who is blue chip/A/etc.
 
If i were to do the blues

No generational
No elite(Though i'm VERY high on Thomas)
Bluechip: Robert Thomas
A Prospect: Vince Dunn, Klim Kostin, Jordan Kyrou, Ville Husso(goalies are weird)
B Prospect: Tage Thompson(low chance of busting, just not a 1st line guy imo), Ivan Barbashev, Jake Walman
C Prospect: Adam Musil, Sam Blais, David Noel, Tanner Kaspick, Alexey Toropchenko
D Prospect:


I"d personally adjust the definitions of each one. But according to yours, this is essentially where i'd put some of the blues prospects. Didn't put all of them. Almost put dunn in bluechip. Inb4 i get roasted....
 
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This all seems reasonable, the only problem is fans always overvalue how good their prospects will be in trade proposals, so in an attempt to establish consistent value using sources like the athletics top 50 prospects to determine who is blue chip/A/etc.

I mean, before the 2016-17 season there were a crazy amount of elite/blue chip prospects. I think that number far exceeded the 15 you want to consider "blue chip". Also when I look at the top-50 list today, I feel like a lot of those guys tend to be "A" guys, and not "blue chip". But I mean, just like drafting it's always relative to whoever is making the decision.

I just think you need to look at the descriptions, and think "this guy will probably end up as a 2nd line C. Can he be better? Sure. Can he bust? Sure."

That guy right there is probably a B prospect.

When I look at the Leafs, I see it clearly as (I left out a bunch of guys, I know)

Generational/elite/blue chip - nobody
A prospect - Liljegren, Kapanen
B prospect - Dermott, Grundstrom, Bracco
C prospect - Rantanen, Korshkov, Johnsson, Brooks, Rychel
D prospect - Gauthier, Middleton
F prospect - Mattinen, Gordeev

****C was supposed to be top-9/top-6, D was supposed to be bottom line/7th D, and F was supposed to be needs improvement. ****
 
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Bruins
No generational
No elite
No A
B- zboril, vaakananien, bjork, donato, frederic, jfk, lindgren
C-senyshyn, lauzon, studnicka all the goalies
D- blidh, Gabrielle, Johansson, o gara, Hickman, czarnik, koppanen, steen, berglund
F- Sherman, Hughes, Fitzgerald, Clarke,
 
C prospect - Rantanen
- top-9/bottom pair upside, potential to be better, great chance at busting
I like your ranking system, but I'll just mention that it could look differently at certain players. It might rank someone like Ryan Merkley as an A prospect (despite the huge chance he ends up busting, imo) and someone like Rasmus Kupari as a B prospect. And yet still a guy like Kupari would be more valuable, in terms of he is more likely to be picked earlier, also imo.
One way of going around this is by using the Hockey Future ranking system. But then everything kind of gets confusing.

I just wanted to ask though. Rantanen, as in Mikko Rantanen... you'd rank him as a C prospect? I mean, isn't he already playing beside Mackinnon on the first line putting up very respectable production. Wouldn't that make him at least an A prospect?

I'll give the Canucks a go:

Elite: - Elias Pettersson (at least an elite 1W)
Bluechip: -
A Prospect: - Thacher Demko (Goalies are voodoo), Olli Juolevi,
B Prospect: - Adam Gaudette, Kole Lind, Nikolai Goldobin, Jonah Gadjovich, Michael DiPietro, Jonathan Dahlen
C Prospect: - Petrus Palmu, Will Lockwood, Guillaume Brisebois, Jack Rathbone, Jalen Chatfield, Evan McEneny
D Prospect: - Zach MacEwen, Joe Labate, Cole Cassels, Michael Carcone, Matt Brassard,

Might have forgotten a couple.
 
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this is a good idea OP, there's so many semantic arguments on HF when posters think the same thing and just define them differently

generally I agree with where you're putting your breakpoints, the boundaries might float a bit depending on the strength of the NHL prospect pool but its usually pretty easy to find separations in tiers
 
Yeah I meant Rasanen. Always mix up those names.

And I think it's always going to be subjective if you rank prospects in "groups" my way, or even the OP's way.

Just because someone in my methodology is considered a "B prospect" doesn't mean they won't end up better than an A or Blue chip. Sometimes teams will take the safer B prospect (top-6 upside, Kupari) instead of the boom or bust A prospect (top-pairing merkley) and it ends up working out better for them.

Plus we're not professional talent evaluators. To me it's easier to tier guys than it is to rank them individually.
 
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My main method is this

"realistic upside" is akin to "a justifiable case could be made for this being a decent possibility based on tools and statistical comparables, but it is a hope not an expectation.
So "reasonable projection" (RP)-->"realistic upside"(RU)
=
expectation -->justifiable hope .

Anything less than expectation would be a disappointment.

A Prospect- RP=Top line F/ 2-3D -->RU Elite/ Franchise/ undisputed 1D
B Prospect RP= Top 6 offensive forward/4-5D--> RU=Top line F/ 2-3D
C Prospect RP=Servicable better than replacement NHLer-->RU= Top 6 offensive forward/4-5D
D Prospect RP=None RU=Servicable better than replacement NHLer

Use a minus to drop a players floor by a level, D prospects can have +'s if boom/bust types

Leafs
Liljegren- A-
RP- Yandle lite 4-5 OD
RU- Karlssonlite 1D

Kapanen- B elite speed and shot.
RP-Hagelin+ high speed two way winger
RU 30/30 top line winger

Dermott- B mobile and smart, average size.
RP steady mid pairing minute muncher
RU Jack of all trades lowend top pair guy

Grundstrom C
RP- hardworking depth player that can chip in offense
RU20-20 top 6 grit player

Bracco D++
RP-None
RU- Top line playmaking winger

Middleton D+
RP-None
RU- Defensive 4-5 D
 
For a second there I thought a Leafs fan really went off his rocker, ranking Dermott above Rantanen. The thing is, you can never discount the possibility.
 
In trade threads we argue who is blue Chip, who is an A level propsect and who is a B level etc.

In My Mind a prospect ranked league wide
1-15 is blue Chip
15-40 is A
40-100 is b
So this breaks down to on average half the teams in the league have a blue chipper, if distribution was perfect almost every team would have a grade A prospect and on average every team has about 2 b prospects. Beyond that prospects don't hold a ton of value.
I also think it varies on when you rank. Mid-year there are less blue chips in teams system, as a lot of the blue-chips are quickly graduated. For example, look at how you would have ranked players entering the 2016/17 season (Matthews, Laine, Puljujarvi, Marner, Strome, Nylander, etc).

I'll use the draft as a cut-off point, because values can dramatically change after a full season and I'll just use top 5 picks I'm familiar with and there value around the time of the draft.

I'd consider A+ or blue-chip guys players that are almost locks to be impact NHLers or very close. See McDavid, Crosby, Matthews, Eichel, Tavares, Stamkos, Eichel, Malkin, Hedman, Dahlin and Ovechkin for guys who have entered the league since the full-season lockout. Those would be the only guys I would give that grade 100% to. Maybe in interest sake they should be A++ as they aren't in every draft

Then below that, there is the High-end prospects who have risk but are still likely to be impact NHLers such as Kane, Doughty, Bogosian, Hall, Seguin, Laine, Puljujarvi, J. Staal, Duchene, Toews, Backstrom, Kessel, Marner, Mackinnon, Barkov, Jones, Drouin, Ekblad, D. Strome, and Hanifin. These would be A+, and guys capable of competing for 1 in a year without an A++ guy.

Then you got slightly below that which is made up of Yakupov, Galchenyuk, Hischier, Patrick, Pietrangelo, Monahan, Bennett, Reinhart, R. Strome, Huberdeau, PLD, Tkachuk, E. Lindholm, Draisaitl, RNH, Landeskog, R. Murray, B. Schenn, RyJo, E. Kane, JVR, Turris, Bobby Ryan, Jack Johnson, and Larsson. These would be the A's.

Bottom grouping would probably consist of Rielly (injury ruined season and didn't have a D-1 to the extent of Galy), L. Schenn (very limited offensive upside), G. Reinhart (very boom bust), Gudbranson (similar concerns as Schenn), Heiskanen, Makar, Pettersson, Dal Colle, Niedereiter, Hickey (he'd probably be lower as he was a big reach), Pouliot, and Alzner etc. These would be the A- or B+'s.

Some guys will exceed these expectations, for example Rielly has been better than a fair amount of defenders a tier above him, Doughty, Seguin, Toews, Backstrom, and even Laine are probably tier one guys in retrospect. Barkov and Mackinnon are damn close. Its obviously a very grey cut-off point between superstar players and star players, which is basically the distinction between the two groupings. Hischier currently looks to have more value than quite a few guys a tier above him (notably Strome, and Drouin of recently drafted guys). Pettersson has clearly moved up in a fair amount of peoples minds. With his strongest supported probably saying he belongs with the A+ guys (I'm not there yet).

Overall, I don't think they can be sorted by a pre-determined numbers. Someone either is or isn't in your opinion. Its like NHL teams generally only think there are 100 or so guys worth drafting and ranking. Past that its pointless. They just rank the guys they have enough viewings of (20 or so) and once they run out of guys who.

Using the Leafs right now, I'd say we have three B to B+ guys in Liljegren, Dermott and Kapanen, when you factor in risk, upside and how ready they are. That probably the equivlant value for a 10 to 20th overall pick. I can see the argument for all of them being B- which is probably a 15 to 30th overall pick. C+ I'd consider guys worth 30 to 45th or so, C is probably would something like 46 to 75, and C- is a 76 to 120 or so in regards to draft pick value.

I'd probably prefer to use the 20-80 grading scale used by MLB scouts over the letter grade one's though.
 
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Elite: - Elias Pettersson, (Brock Boeser?)
Bluechip: - Thatcher Demko
A Prospect: - Olli Juolevi, Adam Gaudette
B Prospect: - Kole Lind, Nikolay Goldobin, Jonathan Dahlen
C Prospect: - Jonah Gadjovich, Michael DiPietro, Petrus Palmu, Will Lockwood, Guillaume Brisebois, Jack Rathbone,
D Prospect: - Zach MacEwen, Joe Labate, Cole Cassels, Michael Carcone, Matt Brassard, Jalen Chatfield, Evan McEneny
 

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