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Player Discussion David Quinn: Part IV

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NYR said:
I think it goes well beyond that with this specific coach.

How about I pose it like this..

Do you see any logical reason to keep him this long other than having a warm body in the position?
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I would consider that an improved replacement might or might not be available, or waiting for a targeted coach, or that the problems run deeper and it ultimately wouldn’t change too much, or they just simply don’t like the optics of it and/or the necessity of replacing him this far into the season.

I also don’t know how much promoting Martin would change things as it seems like his effect on the team has already been very apparent, as well as the caveat of him potentially wanting to play Jack Johnson 20:00 a night, lol.
 
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aufheben said:
I would consider that an improved replacement might or might not be available, or waiting for a targeted coach, or that the problems run deeper and it ultimately wouldn’t change too much, or they just simply don’t like the optics of it and/or the necessity of replacing him this far into the season.
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That's certainly fair.
I just hate the thought of taking all the extra time for this players, especially the kids to have to learn a completely different system..
If it were me, I'd pull the trigger, name Martin interim coach for now and try to salvage this season.
Even if they don't make the playoffs, a nice second half run can only have a positive effect moving fwd
 
NYR said:
That's certainly fair.
I just hate the thought of taking all the extra time for this players, especially the kids to have to learn a completely different system..
If it were me, I'd pull the trigger, name Martin interim coach for now and try to salvage this season.
Even if they don't make the playoffs, a nice second half run can only have a positive effect moving fwd
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Making a run immediately following a coaching replacement is a tale as old as time in hockey. I’m just not sure if even that would get them out of the hole they’ve dug.
 
aufheben said:
Making a run immediately following a coaching replacement is a tale as old as time in hockey. I’m just not sure if even that would get them out of the hole they’ve dug.
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Never say never.. Just look at ST Louis and the Isles.
A new coach catapulted them in a positive direction in very short order.

I'm not saying that's going to happen here but it's possible.
 
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This is a semi-interesting albeit rudimentary new model I came across recently: Tableau Public

It only looks at line usage and line assembly, i.e., if a coach puts together an amazing defense pairing but only leaves them together for one game, that would be a negative against the coach; or if a coach puts together a shitty line but leaves them together all season. That’s really all there is to it, not exactly hard science, and it doesn’t factor in systems or penalties, etc.

I have a hunch that Quinn’s negative impact on the forward lines expected goal generation is due to Zibanejad retaining the #1C spot despite having a terrible year. The positive impact on the defense pairings expected goals against is probably due to playing Lindgren-Fox so heavily, as well as putting Miller with Trouba instead of fricken Johnson or Hajek or someone.

upload_2021-3-12_20-11-30.png


w/r/t Laviolette, the forward line of Hagelin-Dowd-Hathaway has by far the most ice-time for Washington this season, and Laviolette has used Brenden Dillon on the first pairing w/ John Carlson literally every single game.
 
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aufheben said:
This is a semi-interesting albeit rudimentary new model I came across recently.

It only looks at line usage and line assembly, i.e., if a coach puts together an amazing defense pairing but only leaves them together for one game, that would be a negative against the coach; or if a coach puts together a shitty line but leaves them together all season. That’s really all there is to it, not exactly hard science, and it doesn’t factor in systems or penalties, etc.

I have a hunch that Quinn’s negative impact on the forward lines expected goal generation is due to Zibanejad retaining the #1C spot despite having a terrible year.

View attachment 406792
Click to expand...

This only paints part of the picture so how can you look at this objectively and make an informed opinion while it doesn't account for systems and penalties?

Systems are DQ's biggest fault and while leaving players in bad position results in penalties and are a byproduct of that.

I get that you're into stats and that's cool if that's your thing but it needs to be way more conclusive in order to count IMO
 
aufheben said:
This is a semi-interesting albeit rudimentary new model I came across recently: Tableau Public

It only looks at line usage and line assembly, i.e., if a coach puts together an amazing defense pairing but only leaves them together for one game, that would be a negative against the coach; or if a coach puts together a shitty line but leaves them together all season. That’s really all there is to it, not exactly hard science, and it doesn’t factor in systems or penalties, etc.

I have a hunch that Quinn’s negative impact on the forward lines expected goal generation is due to Zibanejad retaining the #1C spot despite having a terrible year. The positive impact on the defense pairings expected goals against is probably due to playing Lindgren-Fox so heavily, as well as putting Miller with Trouba instead of fricken Johnson or Hajek or someone.

View attachment 406792

w/r/t Laviolette, the forward line of Hagelin-Dowd-Hathaway has by far the most ice-time for Washington this season, and Laviolette has used Brenden Dillon on the first pairing w/ John Carlson literally every single game.
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This is really interesting - thanks for putting it together and sharing
 
aufheben said:
Multiple players like Fox and Chytil?

Like...the amount of NHL draftees that make an immediate impact in the NHL is incredibly small. If the Rangers drafted #1OA for ten-straight years and “this” still happened, then yeah, I’d say it’s possible that there’s a correlation. But even then...the sample size is still only ten players lol.

2 is a coincidence but 4 is evidence? I think it’s more like 400 is evidence. Most prospects don’t even play in the NHL.
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His point relates to top-10 picks, because top-10 picks and especially 1st and 2nd overall picks are expected to be NHL players at the very least. 1st and 2nd overall picks more often than not are contributors if not exceptional in their 1st and 2nd years in the league. Of course when you include the entire draft pool most don't make an immediate impact but that's shifting the goalpost completely. No one is asking why Morgan Barron and Eric Ciccolini haven't made an impact in the NHL. Why would you compare 1st, 2nd, 7th, and 9th overall picks to all NHL prospects?

As far as including Chytil, as much as he's improved, the guy doesn't even have 60 career points in the NHL in 2+ years in the league. I like the guy a lot so I'm not trying to trash him but if that's an example of total success the bar has been lowered so far that almost anyone can reach it.
 
haveandare said:
This is really interesting - thanks for putting it together and sharing
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Bro I barely have the energy/motivation to even watch the Rangers, and I haven’t taken a math class in 15 years. And it was only Algebra 2 at that! :laugh:

I didn’t put shit together. But still, you’re most welcome, I am more than happy to spam charts and graphs that someone may occasionally also find interesting.

All the data is from MoneyPuck (NHL Lines Advanced Stats) and the models are made by @HBFAnalytics (who I always read as “@HFBoardsAnalytics” lol).

Again, farrrrr, farrrrrr away from hard science, and only looks at one facet of coaching. Nonetheless, kind of intriguing to see that the #nerds out there are starting to investigate coaching impacts in hockey, or at least attempting to investigate.
 
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KirkAlbuquerque said:
Dumping Quinn ASAP could be nothing but beneficial. Every day he’s here is a detriment to the future of this club.
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Agreed but firing him is the easy part. Would you wait to hire the next full time coach till after the season?
 
Hmmm
Torts still hasn’t signed extension with the jackets. He would run back here from Columbus.
JD loves him too.
 
Machinehead said:
"We would lose anyway!"

This isn't about wins and losses. Thought we established this.
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Ok. Then let’s discuss it a different way. What coach is having any sort of success when a goalie lets in beach balls and your top center is playing to the level of a Boo Nieves?

what team has confidence if every single unscreened 50 footer is a goal?
 
aufheben said:
No, it absolutely is the easiest thing to change coaches.

And that’s exactly why people pin everything on them.
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I am not one of those who pins everything on coaching, or to this point anything on it.

I am having a difficult time understanding what the players are being told to do though. At least offensively they seem pretty disorganized and that goes beyond just one line or another.
 
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I like Torts but I just dont think he is the right fit for this group. I dont think he handles the talented players well. Especially in today’s NHL. I am not saying players should be exempt from buying into a team system, its just how Torts goes about it. This is a young group with a lot of talent. Idk, maybe it would be ok but you would be risking hurting the development of certain players not allowing their offensive skill to take over and wasting years on their 1st and 2nd contracts.

At the same time I think you get a much more consistent effort every night
 
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RGY said:
I like Torts but I just dont think he is the right fit for this group. I dont think he handles the talented players well. Especially in today’s NHL. I am not saying players should be exempt from buying into a team system, its just how Torts goes about it. This is a young group with a lot of talent. Idk, maybe it would be ok but you would be risking hurting the development of certain players not allowing their offensive skill to take over and wasting years on their 1st and 2nd contracts.

At the same time I think you get a much more consistent effort every night
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he’s a great coach. Imo, he’s kind of a micromanager and leaning on players 24/7 i think wears on them. There’s no let up either. Works for a bit but i think a team starts collectively thinking “can’t i just go play hockey?” or “lay off my tail . . . give me some breathing room”.

I like him and he’s probably the best thing for this team but he’s not long term. So he’s likely not the answer IMO.
 
Tortorella needs to stay away from this team, ill have a meltdown if he arrives here. He can't even leave Laine alone and the guy just got there.
 
RGY said:
I like Torts but I just dont think he is the right fit for this group. I dont think he handles the talented players well. Especially in today’s NHL. I am not saying players should be exempt from buying into a team system, its just how Torts goes about it. This is a young group with a lot of talent. Idk, maybe it would be ok but you would be risking hurting the development of certain players not allowing their offensive skill to take over and wasting years on their 1st and 2nd contracts.

At the same time I think you get a much more consistent effort every night
Click to expand...
That extra half a step of jump in a players game...the extra nudge in the corners/crease/crispness on a pass can all make a difference as well as fresh air in the room . Hockey is a game of emotions...as a team's emotions go....so goes the team. Add a couple of guys like we have speculated on and a coaching change ....we certainly will be improved .
 
I wouldn't mind getting Torts back in here at all.

He taught the last core how to play defense and then AV came in after and taught them offense.
I highly doubt it was planned that way but it worked out almost perfectly.

If taking that approach with more skilled youngsters this time around, there's no reason why it shouldn't work out even better.

f*** it..Gimme TORTS!!
 
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