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Kings Article: Darryl Sutter Should Keep Brown and Kopitar Separated

Jason Lewis

Registered User
Oct 4, 2011
5,476
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This season marks the ninth season in which two of the Los Angeles Kings most prized franchise players have played together. Anze Kopitar and Dustin Brown have been the face of Los Angeles hockey for nearly a decade.

Off ice they may be absolutely fine together, but on ice they should be kept as far apart as possible....
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http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Jaso...ld-Keep-Brown-and-Kopitar-Separated/179/66628


I would love to hear some of the opinions from you folks. I know we have some pretty contrasting views on Dustin Brown around here and most of you have been around for the entirety of the Brown-Kopitar era.
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Jason, graphs make my eyes glaze over.

I'll read the article a little later when I have time. Please remove the graphs, thanks.
 
Any common Kings fan could tell you Brown holds on to the puck far too much when he's playing with Kopitar.

Also, Smyth played a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. It's not relevant at all.

However we do need about 10 more charts.
 
Magicman said:
Any common Kings fan could tell you Brown holds on to the puck far too much when he's playing with Kopitar.

Also, Smyth played a long time ago in a galaxy far far away. It's not relevant at all.

However we do need about 10 more charts.
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Ryan Smyth played with Los Angeles in 2009-2011 with two current Kings who often play on a line together in Kopitar and Williams. Hardly irrelevant. Kopitar and Williams' style has not changed that much in 3-4 years. Not to mention that line followed an approach that is and has been successful with other King lines ala King/Kopitar/Williams and Carter/Toffoli/King/Pearson under a coach (Terry Murray) who had a similar style to Darryl Sutter.
 
Jason Lewis said:
Ryan Smyth played with Los Angeles in 2009-2011 with two current Kings who often play on a line together in Kopitar and Williams. Hardly irrelevant. Kopitar and Williams' style has not changed that much in 3-4 years. Not to mention that line followed an approach that is and has been successful with other King lines ala King/Kopitar/Williams and Carter/Toffoli/King/Pearson under a coach (Terry Murray) who had a similar style to Darryl Sutter.
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Different style players, playing a different style offensive with a completely different team.

Smyth skates down the left wing and heads right for the net. Brown skates down both wings and goes to the net, will set up outside the crease, go behind the net, play in both corners and actually cover the point from time to time. Smyth goes to the net and stands there.

Brown will skate with the puck, shoot off the rush, make passes and dump the puck in. Smyth handles a puck like a lit stick of dynamite and will go to the net and stand there.

Brown will shoot from out above the circles, or circle towards the middle of the ice for a shot. Smyth goes to the net and stands there.

Smyth looks to always finish, Brown will set up others.

Comparing to completely different style and pace players solely to prove a useless point IMO is a big waste of time. And probably a veiled attempt to lessen Brown's role or impact on the club.

No doubt you can show more charts or graphs to compare 2 completely different players.

What's next, Nolans impact with Kopitar vs. Browns?
 
It's tough to say because it's been a long time, but Kopi and Brown have had career years with one another. Maybe part of why Kopi was scoring more goals back then was because Brown was puck hogging a little...in other words, instead of Kopi circling the offensive zone looking for a pass, Brown was doing his Gretzky curl in the corner and trying to hit Kopi in the prime scoring areas. I can remember this being the case in the playoffs quite a bit.

Now, having a guy like Brown on the third line is actually a luxury since few bottom-sixers on our team can carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. But I'm not convinced Kopitar being the puckhog on the first line is the answer. He's clearly the best at gaining the zone (hm: lewis, which is why I believe he was up there too, since people were sitting on Kopitar), but I think he would benefit from having another guy who can hold possession because 1. he gets double-teamed too much, 2. Gaborik is dynamic but he's not exactly a board beast, and 3. what I mentioned above about Kopi's possession vs. getting open in a scoring area.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kopitar will EVER be able to sneak into the slot unmarked, but how often do you see him WITHOUT the puck in the offensive zone? Only guys on the team I see effective with him like that are Brown and Williams so far, maybe Pearson can help, but it's clear to me they need some sort of physical presence up there.

Edit: also, I only see two charts for a comparison, I don't understand the odd hyperfocus on those. Is there a meme going on that I missed?
 
Brad Doty said:
It's tough to say because it's been a long time, but Kopi and Brown have had career years with one another. Maybe part of why Kopi was scoring more goals back then was because Brown was puck hogging a little...in other words, instead of Kopi circling the offensive zone looking for a pass, Brown was doing his Gretzky curl in the corner and trying to hit Kopi in the prime scoring areas. I can remember this being the case in the playoffs quite a bit.

Now, having a guy like Brown on the third line is actually a luxury since few bottom-sixers on our team can carry the puck through the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. But I'm not convinced Kopitar being the puckhog on the first line is the answer. He's clearly the best at gaining the zone (hm: lewis, which is why I believe he was up there too, since people were sitting on Kopitar), but I think he would benefit from having another guy who can hold possession because 1. he gets double-teamed too much, 2. Gaborik is dynamic but he's not exactly a board beast, and 3. what I mentioned above about Kopi's possession vs. getting open in a scoring area.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Kopitar will EVER be able to sneak into the slot unmarked, but how often do you see him WITHOUT the puck in the offensive zone? Only guys on the team I see effective with him like that are Brown and Williams so far, maybe Pearson can help, but it's clear to me they need some sort of physical presence up there.

Edit: also, I only see two charts for a comparison, I don't understand the odd hyperfocus on those. Is there a meme going on that I missed?
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I was wondering the same thing but didn't want to come across as combative in any way.


In regards to the rest of your post, I agree that their relationship has been pretty interesting over the years. On some levels Kopitar benefits from having a guy like Brown on his wing. Then in other areas he doesn't. He may have really benefited when he was younger and maybe had less command of the game and wasn't as assertive. Brown knocking guys around was huge, but he seems to be more inclined to carry and shot nowadays then actually get in and muck it up.
 
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Magicman said:
Different style players, playing a different style offensive with a completely different team.

Smyth skates down the left wing and heads right for the net. Brown skates down both wings and goes to the net, will set up outside the crease, go behind the net, play in both corners and actually cover the point from time to time. Smyth goes to the net and stands there.

Brown will skate with the puck, shoot off the rush, make passes and dump the puck in. Smyth handles a puck like a lit stick of dynamite and will go to the net and stand there.

Brown will shoot from out above the circles, or circle towards the middle of the ice for a shot. Smyth goes to the net and stands there.

Smyth looks to always finish, Brown will set up others.

Comparing to completely different style and pace players solely to prove a useless point IMO is a big waste of time. And probably a veiled attempt to lessen Brown's role or impact on the club.

No doubt you can show more charts or graphs to compare 2 completely different players.

What's next, Nolans impact with Kopitar vs. Browns?
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I'm not trying to lessen the impact of Brown AT ALL. He is a fine player and one that is incredibly important to the LA Kings. But maybe Kopitar and Gaborik DO need someone to go to the net and stand there ala Smyth. Hit, win the battles, go to the front of the net. Worry less about carry and shoot and get in there and make it possible for Kopitar and Gaborik to carry and shoot. Collect the trash. That style has been very good when it comes to the Kings. Dwight King is exhibit A as to how that style works when you couple him with guys like Toffoli and Carter, both of whom want the puck on their stick at all times. Dustin Brown wants the puck on his stick and that presents a problem because if he has the puck that means Kopitar and Gaborik don't.
 
Uh, no. Brown is fine with Kopitar and Gaborik. He creates space for them.

It really depends on the opponent and the situation though.
 
This article was an 8.5/10 more graphs would have pushed it to a 10 or 11
 
Jason Lewis said:
I was wondering the same thing but didn't want to come across as combative in any way :/


In regards to the rest of your post, I agree that their relationship has been pretty interesting over the years. On some levels Kopitar benefits from having a guy like Brown on his wing. Then in other areas he doesn't. He may have really benefited when he was younger and maybe had less command of the game and wasn't as assertive. Brown knocking guys around was huge, but he seems to be more inclined to carry and shot nowadays then actually get in and muck it up.
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Probably true, at least until the playoffs, which is when I noticed that more anyway. Maybe just need a Jenner or Foligno type, or vintage Brown. Either way, those guys create space. No one is scared of getting hit by Kopitar or Gaborik, checkers can just stay close. Brown CAN bring an important element to the line but you may be right as both of their games have evolved.
 
There's times when they've been great together, and times when they've struggled. It's mostly coincidental IMO. You could probably say the same of any other pair on the team.

The stuff about Ryan Smyth is a myth.

Brown and Kopitar played together during the best run in franchise history, one of the best runs in modern hockey history.
 
Kopi's Kopi. I think most of it's really dependent on the color of Brown's mood ring. Look at the postseasons of 2012 and 2014. Even if they're underwhelming for the majority of their time spent together, those periods where they become superhuman are hard to forget.

I think there's some validity to the statistical premise that Brown can step on Kopi's toes and vice versa, but I do think on a more gut-feel level, that if Brown is hitting his stride then that is the exact moment you want to go back to those two.

And that's especially considering the alternative is to put him with Stoll. I'd take Brown and Kopitar misfiring on a handful of chances they created before finally burying one is preferable to simply hoping Stoll's line gets a lucky break.
 
Ollie Weeks said:
Kopi's Kopi. I think most of it's really dependent on the color of Brown's mood ring. Look at the postseasons of 2012 and 2014. Even if they're underwhelming for the majority of their time spent together, those periods where they become superhuman are hard to forget.

I think there's some validity to the statistical premise that Brown can step on Kopi's toes and vice versa, but I do think on a more gut-feel level, that if Brown is hitting his stride then that is the exact moment you want to go back to those two.

And that's especially considering the alternative is to put him with Stoll. I'd take Brown and Kopitar misfiring on a handful of chances they created before finally burying one is preferable to simply hoping Stoll's line gets a lucky break.
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That's a very interesting view of it. Good point! :handclap:
 
Brown and Kopitar have played together for a long time. They were very productive together with Patrick O'Sullivan on LW, they were productive together on the top line during the Cup run in 2012 with Williams on RW and had a decent year together in 2013 up until they ran dry in the playoffs.

I don't think there is any forward on the roster who benefits playing with Stoll, and seems like anyone who is lined up with him is going to have their offense sucked up dry. Like Herby has said, Stoll is the black hole of offense.
 
I like charts, but I would have liked them better if the two axes were on the same scale. I feel it skews the appearance of the data in a way that isn't needed.

But I agree with your conclusions 100%.
 
Dustin Brown is a turnover machine. Kopitar excels at puck possession. The two just don't mix all that well.

I've thought for a long time that Justin Williams is Brown's best foil. Williams is such a great puck hound. He's somehow always there when Brown coughs it up or creates a loose puck. The two make up a great two-thirds of a line. That line just happens to be the third line now.
 
Brown Kopitar Williams were the most successful Line in the NHL for a couple of years based on Corsi.
Putting Brown with Stoll made him afraid to pass.
Also Sutter would rather everyone shot as soon as the enter the zone and hope for a rebound or a faceoff. Brown being the Captain leads by example.
Now Brown is getting older and is afraid to pass but I have seen his fanny in the goalies face on a few goals this year.
 
Great Article!!!! Can't argue with the numbers….

-Grinding in the corners and puck possession that doesn’t lead to quality shots on net is just burning the clock… it's handy when having a lead, and when playing a more skilled opponent…. Similar to going to a running game at the end of a football game, to run out time….

What do we know?

-Brown's lack of passing is to the point that it seems to be holding Gaborik/Kopitar's offense back by limiting their chances with the puck and is showing up in the numbers…. This makes sense…. Now does Brown have a bad shot… nope… It would be like King holding onto the puck and not passing to Carter…. As an aside… Kings main goal is to get the puck to Carter/Toffoli… but in doing so creates a ton of opportunities for himself as well.

- Clips of Brown making passes are great… it seems at one point this was part of his game…. In the last Sharks game Brown and Williams both made passes in the offensive zone that connected…. This stood out to me because it was out of the norm. So at some point Brown used to pass more… and could complete a pass…

So what happened? Brown does play in a system that encourages large amounts of poor shots…. Looks like Brown has bought in…

How do you fix the problem? Yes, when you can sub Lewis for a member of the top line without much of a drop in production... it's a problem... :laugh:
 
I thought Brown played well and had 2 outstanding behind the back passes against the grain against SJ. Too bad we couldn't score on those two grade A chances.
 
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