Dan Cloutier

[SauceHockey]

Dan Cloutier as a player always intersted me, but I did not get to see him much since he was out of the NHL when I was nine. What are people's opinions on him?

 

[Michael Farkas]

He was a pretty poor goalie in my opinion. Technically, he seemed to have a fair amount of holes. To me, he looked to be clearly trained before the "goalie revolution" that seemed to occur in the mid-90's when goaltending really started to evolve into what we see today...unfortunately for Cloutier he got "pre-1994" (just to assign a year to it, it could be '95 or '96, doesn't matter) but emerged in the NHL post-1994.

He was able to hold the fort in the regular season for some of those really good Vancouver teams, but when it got down to brass tacks and good teams got to him in a seven game series, Cloutier was taken to task...Lidstrom's famous center ice goal on Cloutier sums up his playoff resume rather well, in my opinion.

I'm not sure, talent-wise, how much different he was than Chris Osgood actually. I wonder if he could have been dragged along for the ride by Lidstrom and a strong cast just as Osgood was for all these years...

But even when (more accurately, especially when) he was putting up decent regular season numbers, I was not sold on him being anything more than an average NHL goalie at his best.

But I'm sure opinions will vary...

 

[Plante]

Decent goalie but weak mentally. By decent I mean he wouldn't 'win' you games, but he'd sure as heck keep you in them. That is... until he went thru one of his famous breakdowns and decided to let everything plus the kitchen sink by him.

(My father is a nucks fan and to this day is extremely bitter about the center ice goal he let in from lidstrom in game 3? of those playoffs, nucks were up 2-0 in that series too I believe).

Also, dude had a temper. Mean ass temper, and I loved that part of him to be honest, but a lot of people didn't like his Hextall impersonation.

Edit: As a goalie he had weak side-to-side to side movement and his 5 hole would open up if you went east-west. Prone to fall for feints and overconfident outside the crease.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I'm not sure, talent-wise, how much different he was than Chris Osgood actually. I wonder if he could have been dragged along for the ride by Lidstrom and a strong cast just as Osgood was for all these years...

You're selling Chris Osgood short. Looking at games at or below the league average save percentage in their careers, Cloutier would deliver an average game or better only 47.5% of the time in the regular season and 32.0% of the time in the playoffs. Osgood would perform at average or better 53.3% of the time in the regular season and 62.5% of the time in the playoffs.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

He was a good goalie to begin with, then two injuries took him down. First off, and less serious of the two, was that he started having nagging groin issues that hampered his style and also amplified the effect of his primary injury, when Lidstrom's shot broke his brain.

I'm not entirely joking here. I've played some goal in my time, and confidence, and an almost zen approach to the game are entirely essential to a goaltender's success. I was at my best when I was just reacting... when I had too much time to think about what I was going to do, my brain and my body didn't always act in unison.

I don't call what happened to Cloutier a "weakness", any more than chronic knee injuries are a weakness. Brains are just as much a part of our body as anything else. What Cloutier contracted was a bad case of what they call in baseball, "the yips". Back in the 80's All-Star Dodger 2nd baseman Steve Sax underwent a period where he simply could not make a successful throw from 2nd base to 1st. It took him years and extensive counseling to overcome. IMHO, Cloutier had a similar problem that caused him to over-think situations where he should have just let instinct, training and muscle memory take over.

Goaltending is such a pressure position that each failure, if you dwell on it, can make it more likely that you will fail the next time. Cloutier's brain gave out, then his groin gave out, leading to an inability to mentally, then physically, play his position.

 

[diligent_d]

Let a beach ball in once.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You're selling Chris Osgood short. Looking at games at or below the league average save percentage in their careers, Cloutier would deliver an average game or better only 47.5% of the time in the regular season and 32.0% of the time in the playoffs. Osgood would perform at average or better 53.3% of the time in the regular season and 62.5% of the time in the playoffs.

Save percentage, of course, being a product of the team one is on (especially within the career ranges of Osgood and Cloutier), I'd wonder how those percentages would look if they names were reversed...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

 

[PierreMcGuire*]

Never liked him. Would take Osgood over Cloutier without hesitation.

 

[kmad]

He was a good enough goalie, but I've read from expert physicians that Cloutier did not have the body to be an NHL goaltender. Cloutier tended to start seasons well (once won NHL player of the month in November), but Crawford was stubborn and would ride Cloutier into exhaustion despite having a handful of capable backups (Auld, Hedberg, Noronen, etc). So Cloutier always folded like a tent by the playoffs.

Cloutier would have made an excellent 1b goaltender, but he didn't have the physical package to be a 1a, and the resulting failures destroyed his psyche and he never recovered.

 

[RobertKron]

Guy was clearly a ball of emotions from the start, as shown by his tendency to lose his cool, and I'd imagine the Lidstrom thing really got to him. Aside from that, he was a decent starter that had ongoing knee, ankle, and groin injuries. From 01-04 he missed 35 games with a whole string of injuries to his legs, and with how much of a fighter he was I'd bet he played through a bunch more. That's before he had knee surgery. That stuff is murder on a goalie.

By all reports, a great teammate. Guy really cared, and I respect him for that.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He was a good enough goalie, but I've read from expert physicians that Cloutier did not have the body to be an NHL goaltender. Cloutier tended to start seasons well (once won NHL player of the month in November), but Crawford was stubborn and would ride Cloutier into exhaustion despite having a handful of capable backups (Auld, Hedberg, Noronen, etc). So Cloutier always folded like a tent by the playoffs.

Cloutier would have made an excellent 1b goaltender, but he didn't have the physical package to be a 1a, and the resulting failures destroyed his psyche and he never recovered.

i will say this: he was awesome in the first half of that year. that was vezina-level stuff, espeially when you consider that he had to play behind marc crawford's "system."

that was just a blip of course.

i think he was rushed, both into the league by ny and into the starter's role in vancouver. he had no mental toughness to speak of. people make a big deal about the lidstrom goal, but i think what really broke him was the year before, when he got the first playoff start in favour of the much loved bob essensa. essensa got the second and third game (first three games were all one goal games), then clouts got shelled in game four. first getting a start that he hadn't earned (i believe burke forced crawford's hand there), the entire city being pissed, then getting jerked around and finally getting lit up was a pretty awful way to introduce your young goalie to playoff hockey. it was too much for clouts. i wasn't happy he was our starting goalie, but i did enjoy his feistiness.

poor guy. the media turned on him months after he got here and second guessed him the entire rest of the way. every year was a goalie controversy going into the playoffs. which is not to say i wouldn't have played essensa, hedberg, and auld. but crawford loved clouts so much he didn't even give noronen a shot to show what he had. even took clouts off our hands when we got luongo.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Crawford clearly had a hardon for Cloutier as he dragged him along with him to LA and he was a disaster. Cloutier couldn't hide behind a loaded Canucks team and he was very injury prone and mentally fragile.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Save percentage, of course, being a product of the team one is on (especially within the career ranges of Osgood and Cloutier), I'd wonder how those percentages would look if they names were reversed...

Goals, assists, and points are also a product of the team one is on. Everything is influenced to an extent by team; don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Osgood is rightfully obliterated by Hasek/Roy/Brodeur/Belfour in save percentage despite playing for the Red Wings (and you are of course ignoring the fact that his save percentage over the three years away from Detroit was higher than the two seasons in Detroit bookending them), but he also rightfully obliterates Cloutier in that regard especially in the playoffs. We're talking about one goaltender in Cloutier who is literally twice as likely to have a below-average playoff game. They are not peers.

 

[jkrx]

He was a pretty poor goalie in my opinion. Technically, he seemed to have a fair amount of holes. To me, he looked to be clearly trained before the "goalie revolution" that seemed to occur in the mid-90's when goaltending really started to evolve into what we see today...unfortunately for Cloutier he got "pre-1994" (just to assign a year to it, it could be '95 or '96, doesn't matter) but emerged in the NHL post-1994.

He was able to hold the fort in the regular season for some of those really good Vancouver teams, but when it got down to brass tacks and good teams got to him in a seven game series, Cloutier was taken to task...Lidstrom's famous center ice goal on Cloutier sums up his playoff resume rather well, in my opinion.

I'm not sure, talent-wise, how much different he was than Chris Osgood actually. I wonder if he could have been dragged along for the ride by Lidstrom and a strong cast just as Osgood was for all these years...

But even when (more accurately, especially when) he was putting up decent regular season numbers, I was not sold on him being anything more than an average NHL goalie at his best.

But I'm sure opinions will vary...

Osgood played for the Islanders and Blues too and still outperformed Cloutier. I actually dont understand your point of view at all?

 

[King Woodballs]

I always thought he wasnt bad.... Then linstrom scored on him from center ice... That end that thought quickly

 

[Backlund]

I always thought he was a ****** goalie, but I was pretty young when I watched him play.

 

[begbeee]

At the time I always thought on him as an average goalie at the best.

 

[Walkingthroughforest]

He wasn't a bad goalie. Unfortunately for him, when he screwed up, he screwed up massive. Front page massive. He outthought himself out of the league.

 

[seventieslord]

I honestly don't get the Osgood comparison. Osgood should only be lambasted if the conversation is about whether he should get in the hall. Not dragged into a Cloutier thread.

My opinions on Cloutier: for 4 years, a decent, average-to-below-average starting goalie. In the playoffs, god awful, perhaps the worst playoff goalie of all-time.

 

[Michael Farkas]

"I'm not sure, talent-wise, how much different he was than Chris Osgood actually."

Not speaking of career accomplishment. They struck me as fairly similar in terms of style. Looked fairly small in the net, scrambly, and depended heavily on their glove hand to make up for sometimes questionable positioning and squaredness to shooters...

 

[Killion]

I honestly don't get the Osgood comparison. Osgood should only be lambasted if the conversation is about whether he should get in the hall. Not dragged into a Cloutier thread.... My opinions on Cloutier: for 4 years, a decent, average-to-below-average starting goalie. In the playoffs, god awful, perhaps the worst playoff goalie of all-time.

... ya I agree. He didnt have "rebound capability". He'd meltdown on a bad goal, any perceived infraction really, head hit the canvas & he couldnt shake it off, get back up on his feet, laugh about it. Any comparison to a guy like Osgood, who I have a lot of respect for is completely erroneous. Similar styles, but Osgood was mentally tough & was able to re-invent himself. As for Cloutier being "the worst playoff goalie of all-time"?. May I present you with the inimitable, the enigmatic, the downright disappointing & very-scary Roberto Luongo?.

 

[seventieslord]

... ya I agree. He didnt have "rebound capability". He'd meltdown on a bad goal, any perceived infraction really, head hit the canvas & he couldnt shake it off, get back up on his feet, laugh about it. Any comparison to a guy like Osgood, who I have a lot of respect for is completely erroneous. Similar styles, but Osgood was mentally tough & was able to re-invent himself. As for Cloutier being "the worst playoff goalie of all-time"?. May I present you with the inimitable, the enigmatic, the downright disappointing & very-scary Roberto Luongo?.

Luongo is not even close to that title.

 

[Killion]

Luongo is not even close to that title.

... oh?. 10,000 Maniacs wreaking havoc on the streets of downtown Vancouver might beg to differ. Any random Canucks fan might challenge your assertion. However, Hawks & Bruins fans Im sure would agree with you. Trade Schneider, keep Louie, long-term.

 

[tombombadil]

Being a Red Winger, I never liked having a great team anchored by Osgood. But he did step up from garbage goalie, to pretty-solid goalie a lot in the playoffs. He didn't steal a ton of games, but he didn't get a chance to much, either - Detroit outplayed it's opposition on a consistent basis in those days.

Cloutier was much worse, in my opinion, and may be THE example of why the W should go to a coach, or a team, and not a goalie. How many times I have heard the "4- 30 W seasons" (or whatever it is) argument from people defending Cloutier, I will never know.

As for Luongo - ya, he falls apart. Ya, he was over rated by the ******* Vancouver media, which made me delight in his breakdowns.... let's put it this way - if he was on that squad from the early 2000's instead of Cloutier, we would likely be talking about how clutch he is. The arguments on one side would be, "but his save % doesn't improve in the tightened play/less powerplays of the playoffs like the other top goalies" and on the other side, the teamers would be saying, "2 Cup rings, 'nuff said'