Dale Hawerchuk

Jim MacDonald

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Oct 7, 2017
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Hey forum!

As I continue my enjoyment/experience of talking/posting on the HF Boards I'm thinking of past players when I was a kid before I got into hockey. Would love to learn about what made Dale Hawerchuk a good player, his strengths etc, what didn't enable the Jets to give him help and have Cup runs and if there's a cool/interesting story on how he got the nickname "Ducky." Thanks as always gang!
 


Thunderous hit! What I like about this is that Hawerchuk gets right back up. I think he was going to retire after this series regardless. Of course I know it is hard to get you to admit to anything good about Hawerchuk there Panther! :laugh:


Okay, to the OP, this is what I would say about Hawerchuk. Everyone who followed hockey then knew him, even though he was in Siberia (Winnipeg). Definitely a guy who had a ton on his plate year in and year out. The Jets didn't have other players to take the offensive pressure off of him and he was mostly on his own to carry that team. Maybe a fresher Hawerchuk come spring time helps their playoff chances? Who knows, but the Jets were hardly a team that was able to take it easy in the regular season in the first place.

He could play on my team anyday of the week. Look at him in the 1987 Canada Cup. You've got Gretzky, Lemieux and Messier down the middle so it is obvious you don't need a whole lot more scoring and yet he took on that checking role brilliantly. He was versatile, more than he gets credit for, and in one of the most bizarre things that happened he had to wait an extra year to be inducted into the HHOF in 2001. Strange, both Savard and Mullen got in back in 2000 right away and you figure Hawerchuk should have as well since there was still space for him. But they make him wait. All of the sudden he's a lock in 2001? Huh? Why not 2000? This is why some of us like myself are always skeptical about the HHOF committee. Hawerchuk was a first ballot HHOFer, no doubt.
 
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He was versatile
Yes, Hawerchuk was very versatile. He had great hockey sense, he was gritty and tenacious, very good mobility, he seemed very confident in his abilities. An elite player. Very good playing the point on the power play (at least during some parts of his career).

He was very highly regarded by most in the NHL. He was an important player on the '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams (Yzerman, in contrast, didn't make either of these teams, although I'm sure he would've done okay too).

I remember reading an article back in the '80s which said that Hawerchuk and Gretzky were the two biggest "yappers" towards the refs in the NHL. I think that was true!

Fun fact: there is a rock band in Quebec called "Les Dales Hawerchuk".
 
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Yes, Hawerchuk was very versatile. He had great hockey sense, he was gritty and tenacious, very good mobility, he seemed very confident in his abilities. An elite player. Very good playing the point on the power play (at least during some parts of his career).

He was very highly regarded by most in the NHL. He was an important player on the '87 and '91 Canada Cup teams (Yzerman, in contrast, didn't make either of these teams, although I'm sure he would've done okay too).

I remember reading an article back in the '80s which said that Hawerchuk and Gretzky were the two biggest "yappers" towards the refs in the NHL. I think that was true!

Fun fact: there is a rock band in Quebec called "Les Dales Hawerchuk".

*laughing* what a cool/interesting post!
 
Hawerchuk is a player that I've heard conflicting accounts of. I didn't watch him in his Jets years.

He was a talented offensive player who carried the load for the Jets and led a team in scoring 12 times, which is impressive. He was able to able to excel offensively without a lot of support at his best and throughout his prime.

Some really like him and basically say that his teams are the reasons he didn't have more success in the post-season.

I made a post asking who was better between him and Perreault and most (if not all) said Gilbert even though their scoring really wasn't that far off (in fact, Dale's was better, really, especially considering the support each player had) and neither player is really known for his defense. Perreault seems to have a better reputation. @Hobnobs said that he had more responsibilities on the ice and was relied on for more than scoring.

Some say or imply that he was fine defensively whereas I've also heard that he was a defensive liability. Some of his plus/minus totals look really nasty even relative to the strength of his teams/in comparison to those of his teammates.

From 1989-1993, Hawerchuk had four seasons where he had a plus/minus worse than -10 (-11, -17, -22 and -30).

How bad were his teams during this time?

The 1989 Jets were garbage, with a goal differential of -55.

Hawerchuk himself was -30, second-worst on his team. However, most of the Jets that season were neutral or in the minus column.

In his last season with Winnipeg, he was -11 (tied for third-worst) on a team that was competitive (third in the Smythe division).

In his second season with the Sabres, the team finished third in the Adams division. Hawerchuk had the worst plus/minus on the team at -22.

The following season, the Sabres again qualified for the playoffs and Hawerchuk again had the worst plus/minus on the team, this time -17.

Apparently the Sabres used to bench him when the team had a one or two goal lead in the third period.


Source: It's All about the Dale Hawerchuk - The Aud Club - Buffalo Sabres Forum


"Hawerchuk in Buffalo rolled up points but you always wondered how.
He drew second line D coverage at even strength. He was a defensive liability and slow as syrup dried in the bottle.
He was however a powerplay genius and would QB the powerplay from the right point. You always held your breath when you thought that the puck might get past him, because he wasn't going to catch up in a rundown.

It would seem like he had the secondary assist on almost every goal, so he could have
A three point night and you could not notice him. Often he would be benched with a one or two goal lead in the third. He was strong in the corners if he got there in time, and just a bad backchecker.
You could not get him off the puck in traffic , just a bull with the puck on his stick.

Honestly it was hard to appreciate Dale in his Prime in Winnipeg because so few of the Winnipeg games would get televised."



His best seasons (1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1994) were good, but he seems to have been a classic "bad team" scorer during the rest of his prime (or much of it anyway). His peak season was impressive (he scored 130 points, finished +22 and finished second in Hart voting), but it pales in comparison to Yzerman's best season.


He was a major talent; however, his career really didn't go as well as it could have if he had been drafted into a better situation.

In relation to certain other centres, this is about where I'd put him:

Sakic/Yzerman
Francis/Perreault
Hawerchuk/Savard
Smith/Federko
Broten/Muller
 
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Thunderous hit! What I like about this is that Hawerchuk gets right back up. I think he was going to retire after this series regardless. Of course I know it is hard to get you to admit to anything good about Hawerchuk there Panther! :laugh:
Hey, I actually like Hawerchuk. I just sometimes point out how remarkably poorly his teams fared, during all of his young and prime years, in the playoffs. But he was great -- not quite as smooth as a few elite guys in his day, but scrappy.
 
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I remember reading an article back in the '80s which said that Hawerchuk and Gretzky were the two biggest "yappers" towards the refs in the NHL. I think that was true!
I definitely heard via the referee contingent in the late-80s that Hawerchuk was known as the #1 most annoying player by the officials. Like most players, he probably changed somewhat as he got older.
 
Very smart player.

John Tavares before John Tavares?

Yeah, they have some similarities. Both on lousy teams, offensively gifted players, carried a lot of the load, never expected to win a Cup. A bit different styles. Hawerchuk was more tenacious, while not a skater with blinding speed I would describe him as "quick" for sure. Still good comparison though as they both routinely have/are top point finishers.
 
Hawerchuk is a player that I've heard conflicting accounts of. I didn't watch him in his Jets years.

He was a talented offensive player who carried the load for the Jets and led a team in scoring 12 times, which is impressive. He was able to able to excel offensively without a lot of support at his best and throughout his prime.

Some really like him and basically sayt that his teams are the reasons he didn't have more success in the post-season.

I made a post asking who was better between him and Perreault and most (if not all) said Gilbert even though their scoring really wasn't that far off (in fact, Dale's was better, really, especially considering the support each player had) and neither player is really known for his defense. Perreault seems to have a better reputation. @Hobnobs said that he had more responsibilities on the ice and was relied on for more than scoring.

Some say or imply that he was fine defensively whereas I've also heard that he was a defensive liability. Some of his plus/minus totals look really nasty even relative to the strength of his teams/in comparison to those of his teammates.

From 1989-1993, Hawerchuk had four seasons where he had a plus/minus worse than -10 (-11, -17, -22 and -30).

How bad were his teams during this time?

The 1989 Jets were garbage, with a goal differential of -55.

Hawerchuk himself was -30, second-worst on his team. However, most of the Jets that season were neutral or in the minus column.

In his last season with Winnipeg, he was -11 (tied for third-worst) on a team that was competitive (third in the Smythe division).

In his second season with the Sabres, the team finished third in the Adams division. Hawerchuk had the worst plus/minus on the team at -22.

The following season, the Sabres again qualified for the playoffs and Hawerchuk again had the worst plus/minus on the team, this time -17.

Apparently the Sabres used to bench him when the team had a one or two goal lead in the third period.


Source: It's All about the Dale Hawerchuk - The Aud Club - Buffalo Sabres Forum


"Hawerchuk in Buffalo rolled up points but you always wondered how.
He drew second line D coverage at even strength. He was a defensive liability and slow as syrup dried in the bottle.
He was however a powerplay genius and would QB the powerplay from the right point. You always held your breath when you thought that the puck might get past him, because he wasn't going to catch up in a rundown.

It would seem like he had the secondary assist on almost every goal, so he could have
A three point night and you could not notice him. Often he would be benched with a one or two goal lead in the third. He was strong in the corners if he got there in time, and just a bad backchecker.
You could not get him off the puck in traffic , just a bull with the puck on his stick.

Honestly it was hard to appreciate Dale in his Prime in Winnipeg because so few of the Winnipeg games would get televised."



His best seasons (1982, 1985, 1987, 1988, 1994) were good, but he seems to have been a classic "bad team" scorer during the rest of his prime (or much of it anyway). His peak season was impressive (he scored 130 points, finished +22 and finished second in Hart voting), but it pales in comparison to Yzerman's best season.


He was a major talent; however, his career really didn't go as well as it could have if he had been drafted into a better situation.

In relation to certain other centres, this is about where I'd put him:

Sakic/Yzerman
Francis/Perreault
Hawerchuk/Savard
Smith/Federko
Broten/Muller

For me I would say Hawerchuk was reliable defensively. You could trust him. Mike Keenan trusted him to take one of the biggest face offs in hockey history during the 1987 Canada Cup (led to Lemieux's goal). Those plus/minus stats are misleading. He was carrying a huge part of the load on a sad sack team most of the time. I think Hawerchuk is one of those players that you can forgive personally for not taking his team further. Put Yzerman in his place and does anything change? I don't think it does. Who was his best winger? Paul MacLean? That's not great.

He is one of three 18 year olds to get at least 100 points (Gretzky, Crosby) and along with Gretzky is the only player in NHL history to have 80+ points in 13 straight seasons. That's some tremendous consistency if you ask me, and pretty darn good peak value as well.
 
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Well, then there was that awful Quebec rock group named after him with that awful song they had on the Musique Plus channel, lol.
 
Those plus/minus stats are misleading.
I tend to agree with you here. I notice that in his first four years in Buffalo, he's a combined -27.

However, in actual on-ice goals for vs. actual on-ice goals against, he was in fact "+" 234, which is a really good number. Obviously he was getting a lot of his points in Buffalo on the power-play, but he was also on-ice for a lot fewer goals against than in Winnipeg.
 
Fantastic player who had more points in the 80s than anyone else other than a few players.
Did more with less talent surrounding him then the likes of Stastny, Savard, Yzerman and Francis.
Underrated defensively and an overlooked but important component to Canada's victory in the 1987 Canada Cup.
Runner-up for the 1984-85 Hart Trophy.
One of the best passers in the modern NHL.
Inexplicably ripped off when the NHL named their top 100 NHL players of all time - better than Gartner, Sundin, Sittler, Nieuwendyk, Lafontaine, Bure... I think he is slightly ahead of Savard, Shanahan and Ratelle as well. Guess playing for a small market team that did not have good players surrounding him played a big role in this puzzling decision...as well as actually making him wait more than 1 year to be inducted into the hall of fame making way for the likes of Joey Mullen.
 
Inexplicably ripped off when the NHL named their top 100 NHL players of all time - better than Gartner, Sundin, Sittler, Nieuwendyk, Lafontaine, Bure... I think he is slightly ahead of Savard, Shanahan and Ratelle as well. Guess playing for a small market team that did not have good players surrounding him played a big role in this puzzling decision...as well as actually making him wait more than 1 year to be inducted into the hall of fame making way for the likes of Joey Mullen.

Yeah, I wouldn't say he actually was better than Sundin or even Sittler. They led their team in scoring multiple times as well. Sundin did so on 13 occasions, often by 10 or more points. Sundin also wasn't consistently a minus player despite having played on some teams that weren't so great, either.

Sundin, Hawerchuk and Sittler are pretty close all time in my opinion.
 
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/reference-vsx-comprehensive-summary-1927-to-2017.2215905/

Hawerchuk's VsX 7 doesn't exactly blow away Sundin's and is barely higher than Sittler's. Sundin's VsX 7 for goal scoring is better than Hawerchuk's. Hawerchuk did peak higher, but if you stretch things out, Sundin had superior longevity as a high-end player. I think Sundin would have the advantage defensively - centres of his era were expected to play more of a two-way game. I don't know... I don't think either one is clearly superior to the other. Realistically, someone like Malkin is better than both anyway and should have made that list.


As for, "oh, but he put up 100+ points numerous times:" the scoring level during his prime was higher than it was during the dead puck era. And they both lacked high-end support from wingers in many of their better scoring seasons.
 
Fantastic player who had more points in the 80s than anyone else other than a few players.
Did more with less talent surrounding him then the likes of Stastny, Savard, Yzerman and Francis.
Underrated defensively and an overlooked but important component to Canada's victory in the 1987 Canada Cup.
Runner-up for the 1984-85 Hart Trophy.
One of the best passers in the modern NHL.
Inexplicably ripped off when the NHL named their top 100 NHL players of all time - better than Gartner, Sundin, Sittler, Nieuwendyk, Lafontaine, Bure... I think he is slightly ahead of Savard, Shanahan and Ratelle as well. Guess playing for a small market team that did not have good players surrounding him played a big role in this puzzling decision...as well as actually making him wait more than 1 year to be inducted into the hall of fame making way for the likes of Joey Mullen.

Cool to hear that he was that good of a passer! Curious to check out his assist statistics etc. sweet!
 
For me I would say Hawerchuk was reliable defensively. You could trust him. Mike Keenan trusted him to take one of the biggest face offs in hockey history during the 1987 Canada Cup (led to Lemieux's goal). Those plus/minus stats are misleading. He was carrying a huge part of the load on a sad sack team most of the time. I think Hawerchuk is one of those players that you can forgive personally for not taking his team further. Put Yzerman in his place and does anything change? I don't think it does. Who was his best winger? Paul MacLean? That's not great.

He is one of three 18 year olds to get at least 100 points (Gretzky, Crosby) and along with Gretzky is the only player in NHL history to have 80+ points in 13 straight seasons. That's some tremendous consistency if you ask me, and pretty darn good peak value as well.

Wow....100+ at age 18 & the 80+ 13 straight season thing is pretty cool/interesting. Good stuff!
 
I think he's better than both and considerably better than Sittler, who I find grossly over-rated.

Sittler had more top ten finishes in points than Hawerchuk. Neither guy was exactly a Selke-level player, so we're basically just focusing on offense when comparing them.

Hawerchuk probably had less to work with considering Sittler at least had McDonald.


But ummm... how is Hawerchuk better than LaFontaine when Patty was the top centre when they both played together in Buffalo?
 
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Sittler had more top ten finishes in points than Hawerchuk. Neither guy was exactly a Selke-level player, so we're basically just focusing on offense when comparing them.

Hawerchuk probably had less to work with considering Sittler at least had McDonald.


But ummm... how is Hawerchuk better than LaFontaine when Patty was the top centre when they both played together in Buffalo?

First of all, I never mentioned Lafontaine, I mentioned Sittler and Sundin.

Hawerchuck was dramatically better than Sittler defensively, so it's odd that you would simply dismiss defensive play as if it doesn't matter. I think Hawerchuck was a better player than Sittler top to bottom. I would say Dale was better in every single department.

When Hawerchuck began to slow down offensively, he improved his defensive play and continued to be a very useful and valuable player to his team. Sittler did not.

Sundin and Hawerchuck are much closer than Ducky and Sittler, but in the end, I think Dale was a better player. Dale, at his best, was in the conversation as one of the very top players in the league, and considering that's a time when a prime Wayne Gretzky was doing his thing, that's heady praise.

I can't think of another top player who through his time had as little support as Dale Hawerchuk does. We never got to see what he was capable of with even one other top notch offensive player to work with, and that's a real shame. With apologies to Paul MacLean and Randy Carlyle and Andrew McBain, we never really saw him play with anybody even close to being a top notch contributor.

That makes it difficult to compare, but what it comes down to for me was I saw Dale Hawerchuck take over a lot more games with his pure skill then I did Mats Sundin, which is no knock on Mats Sundin, it's a compliment to Dale Hawerchuck.
 
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First of all, I never mentioned Lafontaine, I mentioned Sittler and Sundin.

Hawerchuck was dramatically better than Sittler defensively, so it's odd that you would simply dismiss defensive play as if it doesn't matter. I think Hawerchuck was a better player than Sittler top to bottom. I would say Dale was better in every single department.

When Hawerchuck began to slow down offensively, he improved his defensive play and continued to be a very useful and valuable player to his team. Sittler did not.

Sundin and Hawerchuck are much closer than Ducky and Sittler, but in the end, I think Dale was a better player. Dale, at his best, was in the conversation as one of the very top players in the league, and considering that's a time when a prime Wayne Gretzky was doing his thing, that's heady praise.

I can't think of another top player who through his time had as little support as Dale Hawerchuk does. We never got to see what he was capable of with even one other top notch offensive player to work with, and that's a real shame. With apologies to Paul MacLean and Randy Carlyle and Andrew McBain, we never really saw him play with anybody even close to being a top notch contributor.

That makes it difficult to compare, but what it comes down to for me was I saw Dale Hawerchuck take over a lot more games with his pure skill then I did Mats Sundin, which is no knock on Mats Sundin, it's a compliment to Dale Hawerchuck.

Well, I didn't watch Sittler live or Hawerchuk during his prime. I was basing my comment about their defensive play on impressions I have gotten from second-hand sources and Selke-voting (where they are both absent of any votes).

The LaFontaine question really shouldn't have been included in that particular post. I should have added it to a previous comment.

Anyway, I think the "lack of support" argument applies to Sundin as well, to an extent. He also led a team in scoring numerous times and has some rather sizable margins in the scoring over the next highest scorer on his team.

For example, in '97 he had a 34 point lead on the next-highest scorer on Toronto (Doug Gilmour, who was traded).

In '98 he led the team in scoring by 27 points.

Other margins in points over the next leading scorers:

2001: 21 points
2002: 21 points
2004: 22 points
2007: 18 points
2008: 22 points

When it comes down to it, I can see the arguments for both here. I would say Hawerchuk has the advantage in terms of peak performance and pure skill level, but Sundin was a high-end player longer and was also a player who could carry a team's offense and could have done better with better support as well.

There are things with that list I don't agree with (like the exclusions of Malkin, Thornton and Iginla), but to me picking Sundin over Dale Hawerchuk isn't indefensible.

With that said, I think Joe Thornton is better than both, as is Malkin clearly.
 
Sakic/Yzerman
Francis/Perreault
Hawerchuk/Savard
Smith/Federko
Broten/Muller

i would knock francis down to the smith/federko tier, and i don't see any real daylight between perreault and hawerchuk/savard, but that looks right to me. muller, i don't think, really counts as a center.

i think, all-time, there is a range of post-expansion guys that you could group together: ratelle, perreault, sittler, stastny, savard, hawerchuk, larionov, oates, modano, sundin. (i'm not sure which post-2000 players i'd put in that group. kopitar might be the only player that is tracking to bona fide belong. the other likeliest names: datsyuk, zetterberg, sedin, and yes toews are all a little too mercurial, all are special cases of one sort or another, which isn't saying necessarily that they're better or worse, just different. the guys listed above all had long, consistent and straightforward primes as elite but not super-elite players.)

but in that mass of guys, i think there are some things we can say almost definitively. perreault > sittler. stastny was a little better than savard and hawerchuk. modano > sundin.

of all those players, the highest single-season peaks might be hawerchuk and oates. hawerchuk is the only guy where you could say he could have won a hart trophy if gretzky didn't exist. oates if he doesn't miss 20 games in the '91 season and if there is no gretzky might also fall into that category. there's a decent argument that stastny probably deserved more hart support, though, and that in a gretzky-less world we might not blink at him winning a hart in '82, '83, or '84. lafontaine, who was also invoked above, "only" would have finished second in hart voting in his peak year if mario hadn't existed.

as for the leafs players, sundin never sniffed a hart trophy, and he peaked alongside iginla, st. louis, markus naslund, "average" seasons from sakic, brodeur, luongo, kiprusoff, spike jose theodore, 36 year old patrick roy, 38 year old belfour, 38 year old francis, young ilya kovalchuk, marty turco, unicorn season sean burke. that's the complete list of players who finished ahead of sundin in hart voting the two years he was a second team all-star. in hawerchuk's best season, he finished behind 200 point gretzky and 200 point gretzky only. in his other two best years, he finished behind trottier's second best year, bossy's best year, stastny's best year, bourque's second best year, gretzky, mario, and liut and gilmour. hawerchuk was just a more competitive player in relation to his peers, in a much deeper era.

sittler i even have trouble with putting him in that list of superstar centers. to me, he's the clear lowest player on that list, buoyed by one career season. i just don't see that much of a distinction between him and federko, to be honest, except that one spike season by sittler and the logos on the fronts of their jerseys.

and to say something about hawerchuk's buffalo years, yes he peaked early, but he also started falling apart early. anyone who watched the sedins over the last decade can probably see the comparison i'm about to make: '80s hawerchuk was a superstar player from the day he stepped into the league. he peaked in years 4-8 ('85-'88), where you could compare him to the sedins' two peak seasons in the best year or two of that peak. then he loses a big step, physically. he starts to become more and more PP-reliant, where he is often brilliant, and still puts up fringe top-ten points but is no longer the same player. also, his shots and goals go way down, but his assists take only a minor dip. think: henrik sedin finishing 7th and 10th in points in 2012 and 2015.

here are hawerchuk's scoring placements up to the point where his wheels fall off:

first three seasons: 12, 16 (sophomore slump), 11

peak: 3, 9, 7, 4

last two winnipeg years: 11 (falls to 22nd in shots, after always being in the top 10 and more often than not in the top 5), 34 (unhappy last season, falls to 41st in shots)

buffalo years: 17, 11 (3rd in PP points), 26 (9th in PP points), 24 (10th in PP points)
 
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i would knock francis down to the smith/federko tier, and i don't see any real daylight between perreault and hawerchuk/savard, but that looks right to me. muller, i don't think, really counts as a center.

i think, all-time, there is a range of post-expansion guys that you could group together: ratelle, perreault, sittler, stastny, savard, hawerchuk, larionov, oates, modano, sundin. (i'm not sure which post-2000 players i'd put in that group. kopitar might be the only player that is tracking to bona fide belong. the other likeliest names: datsyuk, zetterberg, sedin, and yes toews are all a little too mercurial, all are special cases of one sort or another, which isn't saying necessarily that they're better or worse, just different. the guys listed above all had long, consistent and straightforward primes as elite but not super-elite players.)

but in that mass of guys, i think there are some things we can say almost definitively. perreault > sittler. stastny was a little better than savard and hawerchuk. modano > sundin.

of all those players, the highest single-season peaks might be hawerchuk and oates. hawerchuk is the only guy where you could say he could have won a hart trophy if gretzky didn't exist. oates if he doesn't miss 20 games in the '91 season and if there is no gretzky might also fall into that category. there's a decent argument that stastny probably deserved more hart support, though, and that in a gretzky-less world we might not blink at him winning a hart in '82, '83, or '84. lafontaine, who was also invoked above, "only" would have finished second in hart voting in his peak year if mario hadn't existed.

as for the leafs players, sundin never sniffed a hart trophy, and he peaked alongside iginla, st. louis, markus naslund, "average" seasons from sakic, brodeur, luongo, kiprusoff, spike jose theodore, 36 year old patrick roy, 38 year old belfour, 38 year old francis, young ilya kovalchuk, marty turco, unicorn season sean burke. that's the complete list of players who finished ahead of sundin in hart voting the two years he was a second team all-star. in hawerchuk's best season, he finished behind 200 point gretzky and 200 point gretzky only. in his other two best years, he finished behind trottier's second best year, bossy's best year, stastny's best year, bourque's second best year, gretzky, mario, and liut and gilmour. hawerchuk was just a more competitive player in relation to his peers, in a much deeper era.

sittler i even have trouble with putting him in that list of superstar centers. to me, he's the clear lowest player on that list, buoyed by one career season. i just don't see that much of a distinction between him and federko, to be honest, except that one spike season by sittler and the logos on the fronts of their jerseys.

and to say something about hawerchuk's buffalo years, yes he peaked early, but he also started falling apart early. anyone who watched the sedins over the last decade can probably see the comparison i'm about to make: '80s hawerchuk was a superstar player from the day he stepped into the league. he peaked in years 4-8 ('85-'88), where you could compare him to the sedins' two peak seasons in the best year or two of that peak. then he loses a big step, physically. he starts to become more and more PP-reliant, where he is often brilliant, and still puts up fringe top-ten points but is no longer the same player. also, his shots and goals go way down, but his assists take only a minor dip. think: henrik sedin finishing 7th and 10th in points in 2012 and 2015.

here are hawerchuk's scoring placements up to the point where his wheels fall off:

first three seasons: 12, 16 (sophomore slump), 11

peak: 3, 9, 7, 4

last two winnipeg years: 11 (falls to 22nd in shots, after always being in the top 10 and more often than not in the top 5), 34 (unhappy last season, falls to 41st in shots)

buffalo years: 17, 11 (3rd in PP points), 26 (9th in PP points), 24 (10th in PP points)

Yeah, I agree that he has a peak advantage over Sundin. I would say his best season definitely beats Sundin's best season.

I don't think it's necessarily appropriate to comparing scoring finishes straight up because of the addition of elite European talent in the 1990s and, to some extent, the expansion of the League.

Hawerchuk had four finishes in the top 10 for scoring while Sundin had two.

However, in 1993, Sundin finished 11th in scoring and two European players beat him in the scoring race: Selanne and Mogilny. If you remove the Europeans to level out the playing field, he has a top 10 finish in scoring.

In 1999, he finished 12th in scoring and the following players outscored him: Jagr, Selanne, Forsberg, Yashin, Demitra, Straka (aided by Jagr). Without just Jagr and Forsberg, he finishes in the top 10.


Hawerchuk had an impressive eight finishes in the top 15 in scoring. Sundin had six.

In 1999-2000, Sundin finished 17th in scoring. Without Jagr, Bure and Selanne, he finishes in the top 15.

In 2007-2008, Sundin finished 20th in scoring. The following Europeans finished ahead of him: Ovechkin, Malkin, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Kovalchuk. Without these players, he has a top 15 finish.


Their VsX 7 scores are 86 to 82.1, which is decent advantage for Hawerchuk, but it's not overwhelming. When you get into their VsX 10 scores, they're almost even. Hawerchuk has the high-end advantage in the comparison, but I think the longer you push things along, the better Sundin looks.

So yes, I can on board with your grouping, and I do agree that Modano was better than Sundin. Personally, I would rank Modano ahead of Hawerchuk as well.

Perreault is a guy that does seem overrated based on numbers and even awards wins and All-Star voting. Ratelle seems to have a very high reputation as well.

Why would you put Francis in a lower tier, though?
 

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