CXLVII - Is this the 'Final Countdown' in Arizona?

[Fenway]

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[TheLegend]

Meh.... see a new thread and then discover it's just going to be yet another collection of reruns I've watched before.

(And no boys and girls.... I'm not going away.... I've been busy with this thing called real life and there's really been nothing new to talk about.)

 

[GKJ]

You know how many threads I’ve seen wondering if this is the end?

At least 148.

 

[tucker3434]

Are there any good articles that summarize what happened with Glendale/Gila River Arena? I know that it was an unhappy marriage for a long time, but I just can't figure out how they ended up with a pro sports arena with no tenant and a pro sports team without a home. The Yotes didn't operate that arena, right? They were just tenants that paid for their 41 dates and that was it?

 

[MNNumbers]

Are there any good articles that summarize what happened with Glendale/Gila River Arena? I know that it was an unhappy marriage for a long time, but I just can't figure out how they ended up with a pro sports arena with no tenant and a pro sports team without a home. The Yotes didn't operate that arena, right? They were just tenants that paid for their 41 dates and that was it?

Here's the story Tucker....
Glendale built the arena for the Coyotes.
However, ownership experiences financial difficulties because of the 06-09 recession, and, sparing you the details, the team was place into bankruptcy.
The BK judge ruled that the bankruptcy voided the lease.
In order to prevent rogue ownership from purchasing the team out of BK, the league itself purchased the team out of BK.
AND......that's when the issues with Glendale really started.
Supposedly the NHL was also managing the arena, but they didn't work very hard at it.
The league also asked twice for 25M/yr for management and to cover team losses while new owners were sought. This was a bit of extortion in a way, because there were subtle threats about relocating the team back to Winnipeg (The Thrashers were still in Atlanta). Glendale paid the 25M twice.
Finally, the team was sold to a group called Ice Arizona. However, they required 15M/yr to manage the arena, and so the city was actually losing about 10M/yr on the arena after all the numbers were finished being run.
There were some communication issues between Glendale and IA, and there was also a mistake in that IA hired a city lawyer onto their staff. That's a no-no under Arizona law, and it gave the city the legal right to void the lease.
Thereafter, a 2year arrangement was placed, which were much better terms for the city.
And.....it became clear that there wasn't enough money available while playing in Glendale to make both the team and the city happy, so a divorce became inevitable.
And, after several changes of ownership, Meruelo bought the team, and terms for a continuing lease at GRA could not be found (not enough money available for both parties).


That's how it happened.

 

[JimAnchower]

I could have sworn a previous thread has used this song in the title.

 

[oldunclehue]

Meh.... see a new thread and then discover it's just going to be yet another collection of reruns I've watched before.

(And no boys and girls.... I'm not going away.... I've been busy with this thing called real life and there's really been nothing new to talk about.)

Love having ya for real news on this situation, not just people passing by and adding their opinions. I for one have been watching this situation for a LONG LONG time and understand the complexities of the situation.

I'm sure all options are on the table for Murelo...but his hands look like they are ever tied by so many things to make a successful run at an arena et al in the area.

We all know NHL owners need secondary income sources from these Entertainment Districts. Without them it doesn't appear as if they can make it work.

Don't expect any announcement until the last minute if they are to be sold...NHL doesn't want to play at a university rink without a sell out....

 

[bleedblue94]

My previous comment about Bettman talking to the politicians through the media is mostly directed to PHX. Out of everything that is an option locally at this point the method that seems to be the messiest but in the long term best is for the team to be sold to the sun's owner on the premise that a new building is built or another intense round of renovations takes place to bring it up to snuff for hockey but further enhance is for all events. Ishba can sit there and say he isn't interested or is lukewarm but if the league can get him more massive improvements to his facility or help him in other ways financially through negotiations with the local government then perhaps his interest in the team increases and there can finally be some stability.

SLC and Atlanta are getting the next two expansion teams and they are going to pay 900m or 1b to get in. The league isn't pissing that away by giving them a team on a discounted relocation fee. Houston is the one place the team might relocate it on the cheap bc it's obvious the rockets owner is lukewarm about owning the team, he isnt willing to pay a crazy price for it but he has the market asset that the league wants. That's a place you can play with real numbers and how they are presented to the public to make it look like he paid more than he did for the team. He isn't a guy who is waving money around at the league the way SLC and Atlanta are.

 

[GindyDraws]

You know how many threads I’ve seen wondering if this is the end?

At least 148.

Want to make it 149?

 

[GKJ]

Want to make it 149?

Pretty good bet we’ll get there!

 

[Yukon Joe]

I wanted to follow up on this comment from @Dynamite Kid in the last thread:

Quebecor has been really quiet through all this. You could say almost "True North" quiet. They could host the team this fall without an issue. I think expansion is being lined up for SLC and Atlanta, leaving another western city. 9 teams per division......the final goal being 10.

In 2009-2011 it is true that TNSE and Mark Chipman were very quiet - but there were tons of rumours, plenty of news stories asking "Could the Jets be coming back". There was even the Jetsowner.com website where you could get all the latest info on the Return of the Jets (and it came out later the website owner was getting some level of info from TNSE). Heck TSN even had a Jets-O-Meter marking the likelihood of the Jets return.

Now maybe it's because I don't speak French I'm unaware of any equivalent - but I haven't heard anything equivalent going on around Quebec City.

 

[Brodie]

it is sad how much was lost in the server switch, I remember when we could still feasibly link to all prior threads in the first post of a new one

 

[JimAnchower]

My previous comment about Bettman talking to the politicians through the media is mostly directed to PHX. Out of everything that is an option locally at this point the method that seems to be the messiest but in the long term best is for the team to be sold to the sun's owner on the premise that a new building is built or another intense round of renovations takes place to bring it up to snuff for hockey but further enhance is for all events. Ishba can sit there and say he isn't interested or is lukewarm but if the league can get him more massive improvements to his facility or help him in other ways financially through negotiations with the local government then perhaps his interest in the team increases and there can finally be some stability.

If Bettman was talking to politicians in Phoenix, why would he go on Canadian TV to do it? He'd likely get better traction talking to a reporter in Phoenix.

 

[Stumbledore]

If Bettman was talking to politicians in Phoenix, why would he go on Canadian TV to do it? He'd likely get better traction talking to a reporter in Phoenix.

Maybe because Bettman on Canadian TV gets wide, national coverage while Bettman talking to someone in Phoenix ... not so much.

 

[JimAnchower]

Maybe because Bettman on Canadian TV gets wide, national coverage while Bettman talking to someone in Phoenix ... not so much.

Why would politicians in Phoenix watch Canadian TV? If the your goal is talk to a very specific group of people, you don't need to worry about it reaching a wide audience.

To me, Bettman said what he said on TV because either the PA asked for it or an owner/groups of owners asked for it.

 

[Tawnos]

Here's the story Tucker....
Glendale built the arena for the Coyotes.
However, ownership experiences financial difficulties because of the 06-09 recession, and, sparing you the details, the team was place into bankruptcy.
The BK judge ruled that the bankruptcy voided the lease.
In order to prevent rogue ownership from purchasing the team out of BK, the league itself purchased the team out of BK.
AND......that's when the issues with Glendale really started.
Supposedly the NHL was also managing the arena, but they didn't work very hard at it.
The league also asked twice for 25M/yr for management and to cover team losses while new owners were sought. This was a bit of extortion in a way, because there were subtle threats about relocating the team back to Winnipeg (The Thrashers were still in Atlanta). Glendale paid the 25M twice.
Finally, the team was sold to a group called Ice Arizona. However, they required 15M/yr to manage the arena, and so the city was actually losing about 10M/yr on the arena after all the numbers were finished being run.
There were some communication issues between Glendale and IA, and there was also a mistake in that IA hired a city lawyer onto their staff. That's a no-no under Arizona law, and it gave the city the legal right to void the lease.
Thereafter, a 2year arrangement was placed, which were much better terms for the city.
And.....it became clear that there wasn't enough money available while playing in Glendale to make both the team and the city happy, so a divorce became inevitable.
And, after several changes of ownership, Meruelo bought the team, and terms for a continuing lease at GRA could not be found (not enough money available for both parties).


That's how it happened.

The only context I'd add to the second line in there is that the recession prevented a bunch of the other stuff that was supposed to built around the arena from happening at that time and that stuff needed to happen on schedule to make the project viable. Sounds familiar...

 

[KevFu]

I do think it should be noted that most of the financial problems in Arizona were caused by:

A). the owner (Moyes) purposefully bleeding the franchise of money. He had the team rent office space (that they didn't need) from a real estate company... that he owned. The didn't use the space for anything. It was just a means to divert nearly $10 million from the team to his other company.

B) The bankruptcy itself. Fans treat a team in bankruptcy like a rabid animal: Stay the hell away. That exacerbated every less than ideal issue. The location of the arena was bad...but with 6 million people in the metro area, you should be able to sell 18,000 or so tickets despite how much it sucks for East Valley fans. You look at year-by-year attendance, and it took a massive nose dive when Moyes filed for bankruptcy, NOT before.

If Moyes never owned the team, they'd be "just another team." One that doesn't sell out, who doesn't draw well if the team isn't doing well. They might be dead last in attendance, performance, revenue, etc... but like how Florida or Buffalo the last 30 years have been near the bottom in those categories with zero cause for concern.

 

[bleedblue94]

If Bettman was talking to politicians in Phoenix, why would he go on Canadian TV to do it? He'd likely get better traction talking to a reporter in Phoenix.

you're right, no one south of the border would pay any attention to those comments, they are only regionally relevant and the internet/ national media dont exist. my mistake...

 

[BMN]

I'm not making any predictions but I will point out "We're heading for Utah!" does work syllabically for the second verse.

 

[tucker3434]

Here's the story Tucker....
Glendale built the arena for the Coyotes.
However, ownership experiences financial difficulties because of the 06-09 recession, and, sparing you the details, the team was place into bankruptcy.
The BK judge ruled that the bankruptcy voided the lease.
In order to prevent rogue ownership from purchasing the team out of BK, the league itself purchased the team out of BK.
AND......that's when the issues with Glendale really started.
Supposedly the NHL was also managing the arena, but they didn't work very hard at it.
The league also asked twice for 25M/yr for management and to cover team losses while new owners were sought. This was a bit of extortion in a way, because there were subtle threats about relocating the team back to Winnipeg (The Thrashers were still in Atlanta). Glendale paid the 25M twice.
Finally, the team was sold to a group called Ice Arizona. However, they required 15M/yr to manage the arena, and so the city was actually losing about 10M/yr on the arena after all the numbers were finished being run.
There were some communication issues between Glendale and IA, and there was also a mistake in that IA hired a city lawyer onto their staff. That's a no-no under Arizona law, and it gave the city the legal right to void the lease.
Thereafter, a 2year arrangement was placed, which were much better terms for the city.
And.....it became clear that there wasn't enough money available while playing in Glendale to make both the team and the city happy, so a divorce became inevitable.
And, after several changes of ownership, Meruelo bought the team, and terms for a continuing lease at GRA could not be found (not enough money available for both parties).


That's how it happened.

So it sounds like management of the arena by the team is a ship that has long sailed and the team is unable to put enough butts in the seats to make a simple 41 date lease work (which I think would be difficult for many teams).

Seems like the arena is doing pretty well without them now (Desert Diamond Arena sees new profitability high). Would’ve loved to have been a fly on the wall during the last round of negotiations just to see what each side wanted to make it profitable. I’m guessing it would’ve taken an attendance figure they haven’t seen possibly ever.

 

[oldunclehue]

So it sounds like management of the arena by the team is a ship that has long sailed and the team is unable to put enough butts in the seats to make a simple 41 date lease work (which I think would be difficult for many teams).

Seems like the arena is doing pretty well without them now (Desert Diamond Arena sees new profitability high). Would’ve loved to have been a fly on the wall during the last round of negotiations just to see what each side wanted to make it profitable. I’m guessing it would’ve taken an attendance figure they haven’t seen possibly ever.

Prime Friday/Sat/Sunday nights for home games would be a loss of cash for the arena compared to having multiple different events and selling more tickets along with less cost.

Glendale is for sure out.

As I've said before, the Coyotes need a full on entertainment district with Condos, apartments, commercial real estate and the rent etc from all that to make the team profitable in the area. Without it and without the support of tax payers I HIGHLY doubt an arena deal gets done.

I don't see a plan for that coming to fruition quickly and without a lot of opposition.

I feel as if the NHL and Mureulo have under estimated the opposition to tax incentives/breaks/free land in the area.

 

[Tawnos]

I feel as if the NHL and Mureulo have under estimated the opposition to tax incentives/breaks/free land in the area.

***for sports teams. And probably not even the level of the opposition, but the willingness of said opposition to show up and vote.

Other developments that get similar incentives don't see the same kinds of opposition. Nothing about TED was really out of the ordinary.

 

[GordonGraham]

Wont believe its the final countdown until Gary retires

 

[Shwan]

Other developments that get similar incentives don't see the same kinds of opposition. Nothing about TED was really out of the ordinary.

Can't say I've seen any other muncipialties in Arizona try to create a community facilities district expressly for a private property area. Could be wrong though.

For people in North Tempe who don't care about hockey it was easy to detect bullshit when the *other* $1.8B entertainment district that's being built 2 miles away only asked for the GPLET tax break of ~$25M, and even then people tried getting it on the ballot to vote it down.

 

[TheGreenTBer]

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Completely OT but this is my karaoke go-to. I have been known to crush this song.

i wonder if ol' Tony LeBlanc was a fan of karaoke...