CXLIX - FINAL thoughts on the Arizona Coyotes

[Boris Zubov]

Because nobody wants to own the team way out in Glendale.

That argument is such garbage & so overblown. There is no perfect location in the valley. East side fans bitch about the west side, & vice versa. Fans in other markets travel longer times & distances to see their teams play.

Ask them today & I bet 99% of the Yotes fans who bitched about Glendale would happily take the team back there rather then have no team at all. Besides the fact that the west valley has developed rapidly it's not as remote as it was when it opened in 2003.

 

[aqib]

Phoenix, Atlanta. Those that got the NHL after during or after the 1990s expansion. Phoenix was the second to lose one after Atlanta. It's a bad look for Phoenix in general as a sports town is what I'm saying.


I think Toronto gets an NFL team before any of this Aqib. Thats probably a better chance of making money more than either hockey team. Hockey's model for business is a broken one, a thing people around here and the league ignore. Being a gate-driven league in 2024 is nonsense imo.

I would love an NFL to come to Toronto. I just don't know who is going to pay $6 billion for a team and then $2 billion for the stadium here. Ted Rogers was interested in bringing various teams here over the years when the Rogers Centre was still a dual-purpose stadium. But he's dead and they just put in a few hundred million to make it baseball only. I also don't know when the NFL is going to expand and how high Toronto will be on their list.

Now when we talk about a second team here. If we assume the fee is $1.3 billion and then you have another $1 billion for indemnification payments lets say $500M to make Copps NHL ready. That's $2.8 billion. People here say no one will pay that. So if no one will pay $2.8 billion for Hamilton why would anyone pay $3 billion for the a team in Arizona?

 

[patnyrnyg]

Coyotes fans are taking it for granted that a new owner will step up. The NHL isnt in houston because they cant find an owner willing to buy a team and build an arena. In Arizona you have to build a new arena in a market that already has 2 world class arenas. 3 is over saturated....not to mention they also have a baseball and football stadium. NHL tried desperately to find a legit owner for 10 plus years who could have had the team for 400 mill or cheaper and built an arena for less than 1 billion. Now the price tag has ballooned to 2.5 billion plus. I would be shocked if they find an owner willing to spend that type of money on a team that never made any money and an arena that has to compete with 2 others to book concert dates.

I stopped paying attention to this situation a few years ago, so my memory is foggy on it. COULD a deal be made for Glendale? Or is it just a lost cause?

I would love an NFL to come to Toronto. I just don't know who is going to pay $6 billion for a team and then $2 billion for the stadium here. Ted Rogers was interested in bringing various teams here over the years when the Rogers Centre was still a dual-purpose stadium. But he's dead and they just put in a few hundred million to make it baseball only. I also don't know when the NFL is going to expand and how high Toronto will be on their list.

Now when we talk about a second team here. If we assume the fee is $1.3 billion and then you have another $1 billion for indemnification payments lets say $500M to make Copps NHL ready. That's $2.8 billion. People here say no one will pay that. So if no one will pay $2.8 billion for Hamilton why would anyone pay $3 billion for the a team in Arizona?

Because they wouldn't be sharing the market with the team with arguably the largest fan base and a 2nd team with a decent following?

 

[patnyrnyg]

So if i understood correctly, Utah is a brand new team, and the coyotes/jets1.0 history stayed with the franchise. So that history is now "homeless"?

To me, the history belongs to the fans and the city. If they never get a team, so be it. Just don't see why any fan in Utah cares about Shane Doan's career in Phoenix anymore than the Phoenix fans caring about the Jets Avco Cup.

 

[GKJ]

So if i understood correctly, Utah is a brand new team, and the coyotes/jets1.0 history stayed with the franchise. So that history is now "homeless"?

They should be retconning all of that anyways.

 

[Bixby Snyder]

Now when we talk about a second team here. If we assume the fee is $1.3 billion and then you have another $1 billion for indemnification payments lets say $500M to make Copps NHL ready. That's $2.8 billion. People here say no one will pay that. So if no one will pay $2.8 billion for Hamilton why would anyone pay $3 billion for the a team in Arizona?

Leafs will never allow another team in SO no matter how many people want it to happen. And with Canada's low dollar and terrible economy no one is spending the money to put a team anywhere in Canada.

 

[patnyrnyg]

Leafs will never allow another team in SO no matter how many people want it to happen. And with Canada's low dollar and terrible economy no one is spending the money to put a team anywhere in Canada.

Do the by-laws state the Leafs can block it? Reality is, they are 1 vote out of 32. The days of the old boys club amongst the owners and certain owners having a higher status are over.

 

[SImpelton]

So it's truly over unless there is a new owner willing to spend probably 3 billion total on expansion fee + building a new arena + everything that goes into launching the franchise?

That person may exist, to be clear. But it's going to take one hell of a rich person who is ready to take a big risk.

Personally, I think that San Diego is a more attractive candidate for a new expansion than Phoenix is at the present time. at the moment I don't believe San Diego has any franchises other than the Padres, and their metro area is significant.

A San Diego winter sports team would more or less own a decent sized Socal market.

 

[Melrose Munch]

I would love an NFL to come to Toronto. I just don't know who is going to pay $6 billion for a team and then $2 billion for the stadium here. Ted Rogers was interested in bringing various teams here over the years when the Rogers Centre was still a dual-purpose stadium. But he's dead and they just put in a few hundred million to make it baseball only. I also don't know when the NFL is going to expand and how high Toronto will be on their list.

Now when we talk about a second team here. If we assume the fee is $1.3 billion and then you have another $1 billion for indemnification payments lets say $500M to make Copps NHL ready. That's $2.8 billion. People here say no one will pay that. So if no one will pay $2.8 billion for Hamilton why would anyone pay $3 billion for the a team in Arizona?

I agree 1000 percent with this. Adding to this, Phoenix just does not have the money other locations have. There will be someone in Atlanta or Houston with 3B, but Phoenix? I think the league will pick another city for #36 and wait a while.

 

[PCSPounder]

Personally, I think that San Diego is a more attractive candidate for a new expansion than Phoenix is at the present time. at the moment I don't believe San Diego has any franchises other than the Padres, and their metro area is significant.

A San Diego winter sports team would more or less own a decent sized Socal market.

Just highlighting this to chuckle that San Diego State, by vote of the people of the city, was awarded the old Jack Murphy Stadium grounds in order to build a stadium to their specs. SDSU allowed in a National Women’s Soccer League team. Since then, San Diego was awarded a Major League Soccer team. The funny part is that SDSU will have the third biggest fan base in their stadium next year… SDSU already lowered season ticket prices for this season.

 

[Tawnos]

Do the by-laws state the Leafs can block it? Reality is, they are 1 vote out of 32. The days of the old boys club amongst the owners and certain owners having a higher status are over.

Partially it depends on interpretation. They, 100%, can block a team from playing at Copps in Hamilton. Outside of that, it depends on if you think the rule is that the stadium can’t be within another team’s territory or that the new team’s territory can’t overlap with another team’s territory. I interpret it to mean the latter, but I know at least one person here interprets it to mean the former.

And it says it can’t be done without the existing team’s consent. That’s what the indemnification fee would be for. To buy that consent. But if Toronto said “no amount of money will make us say yes” then it can’t happen.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

I'm willing to bet there's a lot more there than we know. It was true of Atlanta, when these questions came up.

If I've read everything correctly, the Jets 1.0/Coyotes history remains with the league until someone comes in and buys a franchise for Phoenix. So... not necessarily "homeless", but certainly not tied to any other organization.

Jets 1.0 history needs to be given to Jets 2.0

 

[Voight]

I dont think the NHL ever returns. Between the expansion fee and cost of building a modern arena, who the hell is going to pony up billions of dollars?

 

[objectiveposter]

I dont think the NHL ever returns. Between the expansion fee and cost of building a modern arena, who the hell is going to pony up billions of dollars?

Timing is everything. I think Arizona has priced itself out of the league. Winnipeg built their arena in early 2000s..only cost a few hundred million. Bought the team for 170 million in 2011. Even factoring inflation that is around 500 million dollars in todays dollars for a team and arena. If Winnipeg never had a team or arena and was starting from scratch looking for an expansion team they would have to spend over 2 billion and there is no way they would spend that much money. Winnipeg got lucky with good timing. Arizona had a 10 year window to find a legit owner and they couldnt...its too late now.

 

[dj4aces]

I dont think the NHL ever returns. Between the expansion fee and cost of building a modern arena, who the hell is going to pony up billions of dollars?

You never know. An executive at Intel, who has foundries in the Phoenix area, could very well decide they want a team there. The owner of the Suns could decide to buy a franchise (or, at the very least, invest in one) and have them play in the Footprint.

It's too soon to know for sure, right? After all, the dust from the "move" to Utah hasn't even settled yet.

 

[Llama19]

Hmmm...I wonder what happened to Xavier...

 

[TheLegend]

That argument is such garbage & so overblown. There is no perfect location in the valley. East side fans bitch about the west side, & vice versa. Fans in other markets travel longer times & distances to see their teams play.

Ask those them today & I bet 99% of the Yotes fans who bitched about Glendale would happily take the team back there rather then have no team at all. Besides the fact that the west valley has developed rapidly it's not as remote as it was when it opened in 2003.

Glendale would take them back if it meant a long term deal and no additional costs (née subsidies) to the city.

But the business plan was dead to moment Jerry Moyes and Steve Ellman split their partnership which separated the Coyotes from Westgate.

You can longer run a pro sports team in this day and age unless your in a situation where you can rely on multiple revenue streams outside of the games themselves. And in some markets, owning the arena even isn’t enough.

 

[TheLegend]

Hmmm...I wonder what happened to Xavier...

View attachment 887138

Old stuff Llama…. you were posting this stuff weeks ago.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Glendale would take them back if it meant a long term deal and no additional costs (née subsidies) to the city.

But the business plan was dead to moment Jerry Moyes and Steve Ellman split their partnership which separated the Coyotes from Westgate.

You can longer run a pro sports team in this day and age unless your in a situation where you can rely on multiple revenue streams outside of the games themselves. And in some markets, owning the arena even isn’t enough.

Certainly Glendale wouldn't be a temporary landing spot for a new team & I don't blame them. The league dicked them over & they have zero incentive to be a stepping stone for an NHL team while they await a new arena build. However I truly believe Glendale could give a damn either way. If a team comes back, I'm sure they'd welcome them on their terms, but it seems like they're totally fine writing off the loss & getting whatever events they get at GRA, team or no team.

Your Westgate point begs the eternal question that seems to have been finally answered about the Phoenix market, if an NHL team is dependent on all these secondary sources of income, was the team truly viable? NHL Hockey in AZ clearly can't survive without owning the building & multiple revenue streams. They went 27 years without turning a profit in any one season, which is pretty f***ing nuts if you really think about it.

I think you're painting with a broad brush however. This isn't remotely true of all teams in the NHL or other sports. Owners are being greedy creating these entertainment districts, but it doesn't mean they can't survive. They just want every drop of juice from the squeeze.

 

[Yukon Joe]

Certainly Glendale wouldn't be a temporary landing spot for a new team & I don't blame them. The league dicked them over & they have zero incentive to be a stepping stone for an NHL team while they await a new arena build. However I truly believe Glendale could give a damn either way. If a team comes back, I'm sure they'd welcome them on their terms, but it seems like they're totally fine writing off the loss & getting whatever events they get at GRA, team or no team.

Your Westgate point begs the eternal question that seems to have been finally answered about the Phoenix market, if an NHL team is dependent on all these secondary sources of income, was the team truly viable? NHL Hockey in AZ clearly can't survive without owning the building & multiple revenue streams. They went 27 years without turning a profit in any one season, which is pretty f***ing nuts if you really think about it.

I think you're painting with a broad brush however. This isn't remotely true of all teams in the NHL or other sports. Owners are being greedy creating these entertainment districts, but it doesn't mean they can't survive. They just want every drop of juice from the squeeze.

Problem is - that's true of 80-90% of the league. Outside of the Rangers, Leafs - maybe the Habs - every team has team-friendly arena deals that rely on below rate arenas and secondary sources of income.

Back to Glendale - under new ownership I think Glendale would be 100% happy to sign a medium to long term lease for a Yotes 2.0 franchise - at fair market rates. And no NHL team can survive on such a deal.

 

[Voight]

You never know. An executive at Intel, who has foundries in the Phoenix area, could very well decide they want a team there. The owner of the Suns could decide to buy a franchise (or, at the very least, invest in one) and have them play in the Footprint.

It's too soon to know for sure, right? After all, the dust from the "move" to Utah hasn't even settled yet.

What Intel executive is worth billions of dollars and is willing to sink much of his net worth into this project?

Sure anythings possible but I really don't see anyone, short of someone super desperate to own a pro sports team, wanting to sink a lot of money into something that isn't exactly guaranteed to succeed.

 

[Boris Zubov]

Problem is - that's true of 80-90% of the league. Outside of the Rangers, Leafs - maybe the Habs - every team has team-friendly arena deals that rely on below rate arenas and secondary source

At some point we need to ask if the business model is broken. I saw a tweet that the league was happy with 6 million viewers on ABC for Game 7 last night. That's a regular season NBA game on TNT in November. How long is this sustainable for the NHL?

 

[Yukon Joe]

At some point we need to ask if the business model is broken. I saw a tweet that the league was happy with 6 million viewers on ABC for Game 7 last night. That's a regular season NBA game on TNT in November. How long is this sustainable for the NHL?

I mean the business model isn't broken if teams can continue to get subsidized arenas.

But as for ratings... last night was a Monday night, in late June, between a Canadian team (that doesn't attract viewers in the US) and a "non-traditional market". And even then - that was probably a good number. With streaming and thousands of different platforms, even six million viewers is a really good number and attractive to advertisers.

 

[TheLegend]

Problem is - that's true of 80-90% of the league. Outside of the Rangers, Leafs - maybe the Habs - every team has team-friendly arena deals that rely on below rate arenas and secondary sources of income.

Back to Glendale - under new ownership I think Glendale would be 100% happy to sign a medium to long term lease for a Yotes 2.0 franchise - at fair market rates. And no NHL team can survive on such a deal.

Case in point…..

When Glendale agreed to the original 15-year lease with IceArizona it included an additional $9 million over the original $6 million set for the arena’s “operating exspenses.

Gary Bettman praised how Glendale was a great location to be at.

Two years later after Glendale terminated the lease, Bettman begin stating how Glendale was untenable “unless there was a change in its leadership.”

 

[GKJ]