OT: COVID-19- March 17 2020 - No politics! Read post #1

[Clark4Ever]

Banks offering payment deferral for mortgages on a case by case basis

Canada's Six Biggest Banks Take Decisive Action to Help Customers Impacted by COVID-19

This is very encouraging. The banks have stepped up before receiving a government mandate.

 

[Jojalu]

433 confirmed cases as of 2 hours ago ... 37,000,000 million people in Canada. about 0.00117% of the population has contracted this virus, our societal response is to bring society to a screeching halt, crash the economy, start a recession, give $50B to the banks .. yep sounds like an appropriate proportionate response.

I get that if you have it, it can be a HORRIBLE experience. I get that you can get pneumonia as a result. What I don't get is the over the top response, why we don't see more leaders step up and say , Hey, yes it's bad, wash your hands, stay away from seniors and don't travel, its business as usual.

Maybe I just don't have all the info that justifies this insane reaction. It has affected about one one hundredth of our population. I think we need to get out of the Orsen Wells War of the Worlds radio panic mode and take our rationale self back.

I hope you are joking. There is no way to slow it down. The response is so that number doesn't skyrocket in a short period crippling the health system.

Taking extreme measures to save lives is not an insane repsonse

 

[Warden of the North]

Banks offering payment deferral for mortgages on a case by case basis

Canada's Six Biggest Banks Take Decisive Action to Help Customers Impacted by COVID-19

Thats good. I may need it.

 

[Kiwi]

I didn't say anything about making a massive tax increase.

Amazon pays no (federal) taxes because of all the deductions that are allowed under the tax code. They get massive write-offs from things like R&D, offering employees stock options, etc. High tech companies aren't going to stop the aforementioned programs because of tax laws. They do R&D & those kind of things just to stay in business long term.

A flat or minimum tax rate (that could be below even current tax levels) is an idea that's been around for quite some time. As an example, allow the deductions, or have them pay a minimum tax rate, whichever is the higher. As an example, a minimum tax rate of 10% is lower than what a corporation pays in any industrialized country. I'm not even suggesting that is the solution. Maybe they get tax deductions if they build a data center used for a public service, or a hospital. There's a lot of different ideas. But, the question is under what tax structure could society be better off while still enticing the company to remain in place?

That's going to take a massive overhaul of the American tax system and a lot of those deductions and write offs are legitimate business expenses that add value to the overall economy

Even if you just said 10% off the top or deduction and write off closures it's going to be a massive tax increase for them

They can move in this environment and they will with enough incentive

I'm pretty sure a lot of countries would take the employment and economic impacts from an Amazon type company without blinking an eye or that tax were describing

Now I'm not defending these companies, they suck and should be paying taxes just like everybody else but it's way easier to theorize over than to make them do what we want

 

[Bluelines]

I hope you are joking. There is no way to slow it down. The response is so that number doesn't skyrocket in a short period crippling the health system.

Taking extreme measures to save lives is not an insane repsonse

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

 

[Jojalu]

Thats good. I may need it.

I hope it doesn't come to that but it sounds reassuring that the option will be there.

I was laid off today for the foreseeable future and have no idea how easy it will be to gain employment somewhere else right now.

Still, if I have to take a little bit of a hit right now to help protect the vulnerable I will keep my head held high

 

[Kiwi]

will there really be change?

water, energy, resources, food.

Depends on the death rate of the virus and what the world economy does

That could create a lot of change and upheaval

 

[Jojalu]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

Again. To slow down the overload on the healthcare system. Their resources are finite and they are not going to allow people to just start dying in the street. It is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the flu.

People are only surviving because they are on life support for weeks. What happens if we run out of ventilators?

 

[Warden of the North]

I hope it doesn't come to that but it sounds reassuring that the option will be there.

I was laid off today for the foreseeable future and have no idea how easy it will be to gain employment somewhere else right now.

Still, if I have to take a little bit of a hit right now to help protect the vulnerable I will keep my head held high

My contract expires next Friday. I have already signed the paperwork to start a new one the following Monday. My level of concern that contract will start on time is extremely high given that the employer is basically telling us to sit at home right now. Why pay me when they have the opportunity to hold back the start date of the next contract?

 

[Jojalu]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

When you say Sars bad do you mean the mortality rate? More people died today from this virus than all combined for SARS.

 

[Jojalu]

My contract expires next Friday. I have already signed the paperwork to start a new one the following Monday. My level of concern that contract will start on time is extremely high given that the employer is basically telling us to sit at home right now. Why pay me when they have the opportunity to hold back the start date of the next contract?

I am sure I speak for many saying we all hope the best for you

 

[PromisedLand]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

1. The contagion is spreading exponentially
2. It is mutating and long term impacts of the virus itself or mutation is not known
3. Even if Canada was to do "business as usual"; it's partner countries are implementing strong rules so trade front is not exactly going to be up and running as is
4. Medical reports have suggested that even if one was to live through the disease after contracting it their lung function capacity will be down 20% to 30% impacting their everyday life
5. 40% to 70% contact is, if and only if, current measures are not taken i.e. social distancing
   
6. For economy to function there needs to be both a demand and a supply; if we keep working supplying but there is no demand prices are going to tank; people will lose jobs and economy will crash anyway (ECON 101)

Last but not the least do you have any family/friends who are high risk? do you value their well being more/same/less than the economy?

 

[DopeyFish]

Again. To slow down the overload on the healthcare system. Their resources are finite and they are not going to allow people to just start dying in the street. It is a hell of a lot more dangerous than the flu.

People are only surviving because they are on life support for weeks. What happens if we run out of ventilators?

we're going to be screwed if the rush happens all at once.

i saw a canadian govt official on twitter asking if any company is able to convert to medical equipment, specifically respirators (n95) and ventilators so there's obviously trying any method they can to start manufacturing them at some sort of scale to try to prevent a massive disaster.

also there was a CBC article about this dude who had designed a $500 ventilator for US homeland security and he's offering the design for free

if we're lucky they'll be able to procure these supplies in a couple weeks before the wave hits but it takes time to start up manufacturing and we don't have a lot of time left.

 

[DueDiligence]

Saying "for the vast majority life will be back to "normal" within a month or so" like you did didn't help to make that point. You have no way of knowing that that's true, and that was my point.

Things are pretty messy right now and I doubt it's much comfort to people suffering today that World War 2 was worse. But if you find comfort in that then hey, nothing wrong with that.

Cheers!

Let me clarify things for you. Out of 35 million or so Canadians evidence suggests that very few, relatively, will catch the virus and very few will have to be hospitalized. The biggest inconvenience for the vast majority will financial and social. But by the end of April the stock markets will have recovered somewhat and restaurants, stores and schools will be open again. Things will be tough but in relative terms not that bad compared to other events in history. And no I don't take comfort in anyone's suffering and its dam silly for you to insinuate that. All I am doing is trying to suggest people gain some perspective on things. Things will get better and they don't have to fear the future.

 

[DopeyFish]

Let me clarify things for you. Out of 35 million or so Canadians evidence suggests that very few, relatively, will catch the virus and very few will have to be hospitalized. The biggest inconvenience for the vast majority will financial and social. But by the end of April the stock markets will have recovered somewhat and restaurants, stores and schools will be open again. Things will be tough but in relative terms not that bad compared to other events in history. And no I don't take comfort in anyone's suffering and its dam silly for you to insinuate that. All I am doing is trying to suggest people gain some perspective on things. Things will get better and they don't have to fear the future.

read this thread and be afraid. keep safe... but do realize it's a lot worse than most people realize.

 

[Big Muddy]

That's going to take a massive overhaul of the American tax system and a lot of those deductions and write offs are legitimate business expenses that add value to the overall economy

Even if you just said 10% off the top or deduction and write off closures it's going to be a massive tax increase for them

They can move in this environment and they will with enough incentive

I'm pretty sure a lot of countries would take the employment and economic impacts from an Amazon type company without blinking an eye or that tax were describing

Now I'm not defending these companies, they suck and should be paying taxes just like everybody else but it's way easier to theorize over than to make them do what we want

The 10% tax rate is lower than any industrialized nation in the world. That's why I picked it. Ireland is 12% as an example which is a cogent, deliberate selection if you follow this kind of thing. The only places that are slightly lower are 3rd world countries, or small islands, which don't have a large enough work force, or an educated enough work force to be a feasible alternative. Countries, world organizations & economic unions will figure this out eventually. Its in their collective best interests.

Anyhow, that was an example (& other ideas that came to mind quickly were suggested). There's lot of different ideas, and things can never be done, until they are done. The current regime is even embracing ideas (Google building a website) on some things (forebearers) such as this. Its a start. And, the U.S. just implemented a new tax code. It was done in less than a year.

Anyhow, not going to spend more time on this. You can never convince anyone of anything anyhow when minds are already made up. That's one of the many reasons I often put myself on a HF diet which I should get back to again.

 

[Leafs1991]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

Have you seen what happened to the other countries in the world?

Look, I'm quite young in my late twenties but I'm also a competitive athlete, and if this stuff can damage your lungs then i don't want it. So even though I've lost my job, my volunteering activities and everything else I do to help potentially prevent the spread of this virus then I'm all for it. Start thinking about your own health and others before your wallet.

 

[frog]

I havent worked in a week so how long is this shutdown going to go on for? Because just my opinion it will take months for the virus to be contained fully if not longer? Does that mean nobody works for months? Money is going to run out eventually if this goes on much longer...

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let me clarify things for you. Out of 35 million or so Canadians evidence suggests that very few, relatively, will catch the virus and very few will have to be hospitalized. The biggest inconvenience for the vast majority will financial and social. But by the end of April the stock markets will have recovered somewhat and restaurants, stores and schools will be open again. Things will be tough but in relative terms not that bad compared to other events in history. .

You're phrasing your optimistic predictions as facts. They are not facts.

You're also being super vague. You say that very few, relatively, will catch the virus - how many is "very few relatively"?

You say that very few will have to be hospitalized - how many is "very few"?

If and when you clarify, I suggest you either stop phrasing your answers as facts unless you have evidence to back your claim. And unless I'm missing something, evidence is something you simply can't have at this time as there are too many unknowns, period.

And no I don't take comfort in anyone's suffering and its dam silly for you to insinuate that. All I am doing is trying to suggest people gain some perspective on things. Things will get better and they don't have to fear the future.

I didn't insinuate anything of the sort. I suggest you read my post again! And it's "damn silly" for you to make such a ridiculous accusation after misunderstanding what you read. Please be more careful in the future. Thanks!

 

[Gallagbi]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

It's a matter of slowing the virus to save lives because there aren't the resources to "fight it" at its peak.

I also wouldn't confuse confirmed cases with actual cases. Were not testing to the extent needed right now, they simply don't have the tests available for Canadians to meet demand so their prioritizing severe cases which leaves huge gaps.

 

[Jojalu]

read this thread and be afraid. keep safe... but do realize it's a lot worse than most people realize.

Thanks for that. Very informative.

Yes, it is much worse than a lot still believe. We have never witnessed such a global crisis.

As much as I feel disdain for the government on most days, I fully trust that they did not want to have to take such extreme measures. Every choice the make has economical impacts and they are fully aware.

With the US slowly climbing aboard taking this seriously I thought others would start to figure out the magnitude of the situation.

Is this the end of days. No. It is however a dark point in history

 

[thewave]

Banks offering payment deferral for mortgages on a case by case basis

Canada's Six Biggest Banks Take Decisive Action to Help Customers Impacted by COVID-19

That's a big part of the helicopter money for sure. Central banks are the lender of last resort so I am sure they don't want to see the entire banking cartel, err, empire collapse in to utter chaos. They will do anything to bring order and if need wage war on a foe. This is all big stakes involving people that see citizens as collateral damage. The US Fed will print and disperse money to all strategic allies collapsing systems and likely buy up foes or competition, very fast, very quickly. The merger of State and Corporation, Empire.

The US may very well now start to bail out the rest of the Western world, buying up the companies and banks with simple digital entries on $400.00 LCD panels. Is this the formation of a New World Order with Trump taking emergency powers and being it's leader?

Get your popcorn. Most of you will be home to watch it all play out, live, on CNN.

 

[Bluelines]

1. The contagion is spreading exponentially
2. It is mutating and long term impacts of the virus itself or mutation is not known
3. Even if Canada was to do "business as usual"; it's partner countries are implementing strong rules so trade front is not exactly going to be up and running as is
4. Medical reports have suggested that even if one was to live through the disease after contracting it their lung function capacity will be down 20% to 30% impacting their everyday life
5. 40% to 70% contact is, if and only if, current measures are not taken i.e. social distancing
   
6. For economy to function there needs to be both a demand and a supply; if we keep working supplying but there is no demand prices are going to tank; people will lose jobs and economy will crash anyway (ECON 101)

Last but not the least do you have any family/friends who are high risk? do you value their well being more/same/less than the economy?

All fair points, say we do nothing , worst case scenario is we have a year of a really bad virus, we develop a vaccine by the winter and bob is your uncle. Orrrrr we can way overreact, drive the economy into the ground, start a recession, see millions of people lose their jobs and experience all the fun stuff like high debt,suicide, substance abuse, crime spikes that are associated with recessions and experience the impact of overreacting for years.

Yes I have people in the high risk, they are also high risk for the seasonal Flu too but you don't see our country mitigate the Flu in the same way. Killing a moth with a flame thrower is an overreaction. I'm not saying DONT respond at all, I'm saying have a proportionate response or maybe this is a proportionate response and our governments are not telling us all the facts.

 

[Bluelines]

When you say Sars bad do you mean the mortality rate? More people died today from this virus than all combined for SARS.

Yup

 

[Merrrlin]

one one hundredth of our population. In a city of 200,ooo people, that equates to 2.3 people.

It's a bad flu, its not MERS bad, its not even SARS bad. Experts say eventually in the next year 40% to 70% of the population may come into contact with Covid-19. It's something you cant stop, so why crash the economy, let it run it's course.

It’s not that hard. It increases hospitalizations and the hospitals will be over capacity.

You realize that part of the reason the infection rate is low is because of these measures right?