OT: COVID-19- March 17 2020 - No politics! Read post #1

[lottster14]

I like that this thread has remained pretty civil while we all can learn something. We got businesd, health, survival strategies and even psychology. One of the best corona threads on hfboards.

This is where the chillness and togetherness of Canadians comes through.

 

[Kiwi]

Many economists questioned the lowering of corporate and individual tax rates given that the state of the economy was good at the time. That increased the debt by the first trillion dollars. The thinking was that the Fed should keep their powder dry for a downturn. Many people thought that the market was some kind of indicator of the economy. Market got a big boost from the corporate buy backs, but more importantly, GDP is the metric used to measure the rate/growth of the economy. In 2019, the GDP went back to pre-2016 levels.

Until they get their entitlements restructured their flying into the side of a mountain anyway, their unfunded liabilities are so massive it's hard to get your mind around in any "real sense"

They spend like a liberal western democracy but without the tax burden to help pay for it, although to be fair to them they aren't the only country with massive debt burdens that seem unsolvable

I will say the last 3 presidents have been horrendously shortsighted, even in comparison to what came before them

 

[Kiwi]

I can get in over my head fast with these economics discussions but I believe that's one of the reasons why these Western nations with their huge debts seek to accelerate their working age population growth through immigration.

We also need them to help pay for entitlements we now can't afford, also helps with GDP to debt ratios

 

[Big Muddy]

Until they get their entitlements restructured their flying into the side of a mountain anyway, their unfunded liabilities are so massive it's hard to get your mind around in any "real sense"

They spend like a liberal western democracy but without the tax burden to help pay for it, although to be fair to them they aren't the only country with massive debt burdens that seem unsolvable

I will say the last 3 presidents have been horrendously shortsighted, even in comparison to what came before them

Ya, they've been kicking the can down the road for a long time, and in the meantime debt continues to pile up. I think making sure all corporations pay some tax would help. Amazon paid $0 in federal taxes in 2018 for example.

Why Amazon paid no 2018 US federal income tax

Why Amazon Pays No Corporate Taxes

 

[DopeyFish]

BC update was no bueno

83 new cases, 3 deaths

 

[Fogelhund]

What is there to discuss. Are we going to do what we say? or is all this a bunch of BS. It is real simple. Make everyone who is not working WHOLE today through EI. The cost is whatever the cost is? Too many politicians talking in general terms here. Now lets get $$$ out to people who need it. If you are not working today because you are a server then file for EI now and get setup to be paid on Friday. If you make $75,000 per year then get payments out at exact rate less taxes. The more BSing around that goes on here makes everyone think there is a ton of more BS going on here. Do what you say. Don't say we are supporting everyone and then keep current EI system da same. I guess we will see soon as pressure mounts. Hopefully we don't have to wait until our kids can't make rent in April. and then our kids are calling us to help out with their rent. Folks get some liquidity for yourself and your kids. The feel good talk is on us. Let's see if it is REAL.

What is there to discuss? I'm not even sure where to start to respond to this, because you come at it, like this is a simplistic situation, and solution, where it most certainly is not.

The complexities are numerous, from self-employed, contract workers, variances in employment, PT workers, FT, servers, all kinds of occupations... small business, small corporations, large corporations, do we lower hydro temporarily, other utilities holidays, do we we waive rents, how we support those who rent out, mortgage payments, car payments, debt payments, for how long should we do so, what are the costs, are they prudent from a nation, is it the right policy? What is the best way to have people apply... how does the government handle the volume of applications, process them, and get money out... how do you prevent fraud? I mean... all this stuff needs some level of approval, and that would be a massive number of applications at once, it isn't as if poof, and money goes out to everyone.

I mean from a Financial Planning perspective, people should have three months cash savings on hand... Is this to go on longer than three months? Should the government be held responsible, for people's poor planning? Where did personal responsibility go in all of this? Sure, I'm well aware that some 48% of Canadians are within $200 any given month of not paying their bills... yet you don't see people cutting back from their latest iPhones, expensive cable TV, and other luxuries, that weren't as costly decades ago. Consumerism has lead to poor financial decisions, and many are about to learn a hard lesson, on why you should be prepared.

Analysis needs to be undertaken, to decide how much will be paid out, for how long, where the funds come from, and if that is a prudent and responsible decision from the government...

This isn't simple.

 

[Burnie97]

So cbc saying they'll announce 25 billion in aid tomorrow

 

[Peasy]

NY has less than 1k cases yesterday. Now they're up to 1.7k.

 

[DenisSamson3]

SARS killed 774 people from 2002 to 2004
COVID-19 has killed over 800 people today

Coronavirus Update (Live): 198,164 Cases and 7,965 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer

 

[Big Muddy]

SARS killed 774 people from 2002 to 2004
COVID-19 has killed over 800 people today

Coronavirus Update (Live): 198,164 Cases and 7,965 Deaths from COVID-19 Virus Outbreak - Worldometer

They just announced the 1st death in my county. It was an elderly gentleman living in a nursing home with his wife. His wife has also test positive.

Sadly, I think this is a story we are going to hear over and over in the near future.

 

[Clark4Ever]

What is there to discuss? I'm not even sure where to start to respond to this, because you come at it, like this is a simplistic situation, and solution, where it most certainly is not.

The complexities are numerous, from self-employed, contract workers, variances in employment, PT workers, FT, servers, all kinds of occupations... small business, small corporations, large corporations, do we lower hydro temporarily, other utilities holidays, do we we waive rents, how we support those who rent out, mortgage payments, car payments, debt payments, for how long should we do so, what are the costs, are they prudent from a nation, is it the right policy? What is the best way to have people apply... how does the government handle the volume of applications, process them, and get money out... how do you prevent fraud? I mean... all this stuff needs some level of approval, and that would be a massive number of applications at once, it isn't as if poof, and money goes out to everyone.

I mean from a Financial Planning perspective, people should have three months cash savings on hand... Is this to go on longer than three months? Should the government be held responsible, for people's poor planning? Where did personal responsibility go in all of this? Sure, I'm well aware that some 48% of Canadians are within $200 any given month of not paying their bills... yet you don't see people cutting back from their latest iPhones, expensive cable TV, and other luxuries, that weren't as costly decades ago. Consumerism has lead to poor financial decisions, and many are about to learn a hard lesson, on why you should be prepared.

Analysis needs to be undertaken, to decide how much will be paid out, for how long, where the funds come from, and if that is a prudent and responsible decision from the government...

This isn't simple.

At the very least, if there is a prolonged shutdown, I expect the Canadian Government to enforce a debt moratorium unless they want another crisis on their hands. Remember, if the Government initiates a mandate that shuts down all businesses (even though it's a necessary measure), people should not be held responsible for losing their source of income in the interim. To expect people to continue to afford paying commercial leases/mortgages, residential mortgages, rent, utilities, bank loans, etc. is completely unreasonable.

 

[Kiwi]

Ya, they've been kicking the can down the road for a long time, and in the meantime debt continues to pile up. I think making sure all corporations pay some tax would help. Amazon paid $0 in federal taxes in 2018 for example.

Why Amazon paid no 2018 US federal income tax

Why Amazon Pays No Corporate Taxes

They aren't taxing their way out of that hole, they have to restructure entitlements, slow down their rates of spending and up their tax intake

Economies are global, the uber wealthy aren't just going to sit on their asses when tax rates take a massive jump, plenty of other countries will be more than happy to take that tax base off the American government

I'd go entitlements, some sort of VAT or GST broad base type tax and then I'd hard cap government spending, in that order, I think it would slow the economy down but its better than the alternative

NY has less than 1k cases yesterday. Now they're up to 1.7k.

America man...

It's a highly communicable virus and they have started to ramp up testing so they were always going to get a spike in confirmed cases as that came on line

This isn't America man.... this is a lot of people living in a very small area that acts as a global hub

The anti American sentement is starting to get tedious

 

[Rants Mulliniks]

It is never easy to buy on da bottom. Much like selling at top. Right now things are all negative so assets are down everywhere. Now is as good a time to buy. Even if things drops another 20% they will all come back likely in a year or two. I am holding now.

For me it isn't so much about trying to buy at the bottom. While I obviously get the sense that makes, I'm all about fair value. I've done a ton of reno work with my own hands so I know what things cost and what work needs to be done as soon as I walk into a place. The price they were asking on this one would be at the extreme high end of the market IF everything were done and modernized. Reality is I would be gutting a bunch of it to bring it up to par (not just makeup but electrical, plumbing etc.). That said it is a double lot with gorgeous views of the bay and potential for two rental units downstairs. But I am not paying finished value for something that needs a lot of work.

Where my conundrum lies right now is not in grossly undercutting them, more in wondering if I should jump now (will someone else?) or if I should wait a bit to see what effects this has on the whole? I personally am in a good position. No debts and some cash in hand. I presume the banks will be fine this time around (where it was them going under before due to their own practices). Not really sure what all I should be considering in these times? Don't want to miss out on something I should have thought of.

 

[yubbers]

I think there is a very distinct possibility that we are witnessing the fall of an empire. I think it depends how the banks and countries internationally respond in the next month or so that will tell you everything we all need to know. I hope that's not the case, I mean they can print obviously so it may be a while and not for certain. It's not good.

The old saying was... If the USA sneezes, Canada catches a cold.
We are finding out... If China catches a cold, USA __________.

almost like borders are important :p

 

[yubbers]

The anti American sentement is starting to get tedious

It's ridiculous honestly. 4 years of intense media programming has been very effective.

 

[Peasy]

It's a highly communicable virus and they have started to ramp up testing so they were always going to get a spike in confirmed cases as that came on line

This isn't America man.... this is a lot of people living in a very small area that acts as a global hub

The anti American sentement is starting to get tedious

Well yes this is obviously all true but America has been extremely late in response to all of this.

Despite being a much smaller population and having less cases, Canada has done much more to prevent the spread than America has.

Obviously this is something that has never happened before so everyone is in new territory but we have already seen how quickly this can get out of hand. It is really unfortunate that so many people did not take this seriously, and it is even more unfortunate that there are STILL people not taking this seriously (this is not directed at government).

 

[DopeyFish]

Ottawa to unveil nearly $30 billion economic aid package

Sources say Ottawa will use existing programs to help Canadians, such as lowering qualifying rules for EI, increasing GST rebates and the child-tax credit and boosting the guaranteed income supplement for seniors. A new temporary program is also expected to be announced to provide income to self-employed and part-time workers who aren’t eligible for EI.

Mr. Morneau will also announce that Ottawa is pushing back the deadline for individuals and small businesses filing taxes and giving them additional time to finalize their payments without facing penalties or interest payments on money due, the sources said.

Other measures in Wednesday’s emergency package will include additional help for small and medium-sized business that are facing cash-flow problems.

 

[thewave]

almost like borders are important :p

They certainly are. Screening is very important.

I think this may leads to the US making another push into the middle east and securing the oil fields again. Start a new regional war to get the petro dollar prices up, and help the markets. Who knows, maybe Russia and the US will work together.

 

[Kiwi]

It's ridiculous honestly. 4 years of intense media programming has been very effective.

Everybody is dealing with this ****, nobody has dealt with anything like this in living memory and we live in a very global society

This hasn't been a study in quality governance around most of the world and the Americans are no different, except they have 10 times the population of Canada

 

[PromisedLand]

I can get in over my head fast with these economics discussions but I believe that's one of the reasons why these Western nations with their huge debts seek to accelerate their working age population growth through immigration.

Its a combination of aging population; more and more young people deciding not to have kids etc...

Usually population growth is like a pyramid, in general, where current working citizens pay for the older folks' social welfare;

example:

In Canada during the baby boom pyramid shape got spread out like a flask; so when the baby boomers were working older folks at that time enjoyed plenty of social programs as there was more of the population working than retired

Now when the blue line (the fat flask) when it goes into the "elders" category, that is, boomers are going to be retiring soon (or are retired); we will have more older folks retired/or retiring soon than younger folks working so things may get "interesting"

So yea immigration seems to be the most probable answer

 

[PromisedLand]

Oh yeah, their debt burden is insane and is about to get much, much worse in the very near future

With the world economy as interconnected as it is and the US being the biggest economy in it this is going to have huge knock on effects for everybody in the world in a hugely negative way

The thing is how can you stop buying their debt though? Even if they can't pay it back because they will take us with them when they do go on, it would make Greece look like happy fun time at Disney land

75% to 80% of our international trade in Canada is with US; it is in our interest to have a very strong and healthy US economy

 

[Kiwi]

Well yes this is obviously all true but America has been extremely late in response to all of this.

Despite being a much smaller population and having less cases, Canada has done much more to prevent the spread than America has.

They aren't Canada

They have a population of 330 million so it's Canada by a magnitude of 10 with multiple heavily populated cities and states which you guys can't even imagine logistically

It goes Local-state-federal for a reason, the population is just to large for one government to deal with

 

[Kiwi]

75% to 80% of our international trade in Canada is with US; it is in our interest to have a very strong and healthy US economy

I'm in New Zealand and we do a ton of trade with them to, if they go down were going with them

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Thankfully I live in Fort Mcmurray Alberta where as of today we have a grand total of 3 cases so Fort Mcmurray life continues as normal for now

I should say the North region has 3 cases we might not have any

 

[PromisedLand]

This is where the chillness and togetherness of Canadians comes through.

If netflix and amazon prime made their streaming free for everyone for the next 2 months; am sure most of the folks would netflix and chill easily