OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Part IV - II

[eco's bones]

If this happens, our transition to dictatorial banana republic will be complete.

The reason why it’s a problem that the president’s signature is on these checks is because he’s taking credit for something that he didn’t do, and implying that this is a gesture of his generosity and benevolence. That’s not what this is. The money we are getting back is OUR money, not his. He doesn’t control our money, no single person does. He’s trying to change that perception.

I understand where you're coming from. It wasn't even his idea--I think his arch-nemesis in the Republican Senate Mitt Romney was first to come up with it. He loves to take credit for the positive efforts and ideas of other people. Kind of like a hornet that takes over a honeybee's nest. It's despicable. As far as America being like a banana republic--well generally it acts in the interests not of the population but of corporate interests and super wealthy and that's been an ongoing project from one administration to the next and without fail since Ronald Reagan started incorporating Milton Friedman's predatorial neo-liberal economic theories into our version of what capitalism is. Wealth is indemnified--poverty is not. In times of economic instability wealthy entities are bailed out as in 2009 and the population pays for it--also as in who almost all tax legislation is targeted to benefit--again it benefits corporations and the wealthy and not regular ordinary people. The Bush tax cuts that Obama protected. The Trump tax bill and even in this stimulus there is a massive bailout of the rich as 17 million Americans lose their jobs altogether. Biden is part of this corporate friendly picture too. Would he put his signature on a future stimulus check. Probably not but how much does it really matter. Biden if he does win the presidency is going to whether he likes it or not have to figure out how to restructure an economy with a massive employment and housing problem (millions of people not able to meet their rent or house payments)---with a massive climate change issue fueling all this as well. Do I think he or Trump are up for this job? No. They're going to have to deal with it anyway. So we're already kind of a banana republic right now but one with over 1000 overseas military bases and a massive nuclear arsenal.

 

[UnSandvich]

we should be ignoring the media’s take as fact rather than tabloid

Why? Because you think it's biased?

my bias is being impartial. I’ll accept that.

The fact that you say something like that, rather than even considering the fact that anything said about your precious little president that you disagree with might be true? That says a lot about you as a person. And the fact that you cannot be relied on to hold an intelligent discussion on this topic in good faith.

You are as impartial as Machinehead is when he's discussing Marc Staal being on the current NYR roster

 

[NYSPORTS]

"Why wont people discuss science and the virus?!?"

"Remember that cash for clunkers program?"

Haha, amazing.

yeah, in a Coronavirus thread yet there is little, if any, virus talk. It’s all this petty nitpicking by one side until somebody from the other side nit picks and all hell breaks loose.

Suggest trying to talk virus which can kill you rather than a face on a check

 

[Synergy27]

I understand where you're coming from. It wasn't even his idea--I think his arch-nemesis in the Republican Senate Mitt Romney was first to come up with it. He loves to take credit for the positive efforts and ideas of other people. Kind of like a hornet that takes over a honeybee's nest. It's despicable. As far as America being like a banana republic--well generally it acts in the interests not of the population but of corporate interests and super wealthy and that's been an ongoing project from one administration to the next and without fail since Ronald Reagan started incorporating Milton Friedman's predatorial neo-liberal economic theories into our version of what capitalism is. Wealth is indemnified--poverty is not. In times of economic instability wealthy entities are bailed out as in 2009 and the population pays for it--also as in who almost all tax legislation is targeted to benefit--again it benefits corporations and the wealthy and not regular ordinary people. The Bush tax cuts that Obama protected. The Trump tax bill and even in this stimulus there is a massive bailout of the rich as 17 million Americans lose their jobs altogether. Biden is part of this corporate friendly picture too. Would he put his signature on a future stimulus check. Probably not but how much does it really matter. Biden if he does win the presidency is going to whether he likes it or not have to figure out how to restructure an economy with a massive employment and housing problem (millions of people not able to meet their rent or house payments)---with a massive climate change issue fueling all this as well. Do I think he or Trump are up for this job? No. They're going to have to deal with it anyway. So we're already kind of a banana republic right now but one with over 1000 overseas military bases and a massive nuclear arsenal.

I agree with basically all of this by the way.

I’m not a partisan person. I think all administrations should be criticized far more than they typically are and from all directions. I do think certain behaviors are openly at odds with the tenets of our constitution, and I don’t like how big national issues such as the one we are going through now tend to provide cover for major shifts in governmental power that are ignored or outright supported by large swaths of the population because it’s their “team” doing it.

 

[eco's bones]

While I agree with you @eco's bones I just don't think it is that simple. I don't think the restaurant/small business owner is wanting to risk others lives for their own personal gain. I think they are seeing their entire livelihood slipping away... everything they have worked so hard to build. I don't think the person who is watching his employer rapidly move into bankruptcy status and is wondering how they will provide for their family is wrong for the economy to restart.

My cousin works in oil. 80% of their techs are being laid off today. Middle class families.

I get that too actually--a dream you've worked heart and soul for and seeing that dream going up in smoke. I've also heard a lot of people in the restaurant business aren't coming back because all the traffic coming their way in February and March brought them or their work force the virus. That a higher % of them than in other occupations among the sick. There are going to be all kinds of victims and IMO it is unconscionable that we're bailing out the air and cruise lines and not nearly as much these small business owners.

Anyway I worked in the Post Office for almost 30 years. That's looking real iffy for the future right now and there are millions of people who get their medication through the mail. What happens to that and to them? I doubt there's any backup plan and mail service is not being deemed vital enough by this administration.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Why? Because you think it's biased?



The fact that you say something like that, rather than even considering the fact that anything said about your precious little president that you disagree with might be true? That says a lot about you as a person. And the fact that you cannot be relied on to hold an intelligent discussion on this topic in good faith.

You are as impartial as Machinehead is when he's discussing Marc Staal being on the current NYR roster

please don’t label me with that fella or i can label you the same lol

If you want to hate the President, go ahead but try to realize the same media who makes your type hate him so much is the same media which put him in that chair b/c they did nothing but praise absolute incompetence which resided in that chair for years along with the dopes who wanted and want it.

 

[Fireonk]

yeah, in a Coronavirus thread yet there is little, if any, virus talk. It’s all this petty nitpicking by one side until somebody from the other side nit picks and all hell breaks loose.

Suggest trying to talk virus which can kill you rather than a face on a check

My comment said nothing about Trump, nothing about what was on the check, and nothing implying anything of a political nature. I just let people know my direct deposit arrived so others who are waiting could take a look.

But you do you I guess.

 

[eco's bones]

I agree with basically all of this by the way.

I’m not a partisan person. I think all administrations should be criticized far more than they typically are and from all directions. I do think certain behaviors are openly at odds with the tenets of our constitution, and I don’t like how big national issues such as the one we are going through now tend to provide cover for major shifts in governmental power that are ignored or outright supported by large swaths of the population because it’s their “team” doing it.

I think we're going to have to make some choices and I pointed towards one major one--the necessariness of overseas military presence and the military industrial complex. I think it's an area where we have way more than enough. It doesn't have to come at the expense of military personnel either.

 

[NYSPORTS]

My comment said nothing about Trump, nothing about what was on the check, and nothing implying anything of a political nature. I just let people know my direct deposit arrived so others who are waiting could take a look.

But you do you I guess.

Thanks for your public service announcement this administration did well.

back to the virus

 

[True Blue]

You keep moving the goalposts and never provide anything concrete to support your claims.

There are no goalposts that are being moved. I have maintained all along that while, sure one could have done things sooner, no one was going to do things any differently.

 

[UnSandvich]

please don’t label me with that fella or i can label you the same lol

If you want to hate the President, go ahead but try to realize the same media who makes your type hate him so much is the same media which put him in that chair b/c they did nothing but praise absolute incompetence which resided in that chair for years along with the dopes who wanted and want it.

Go right ahead and label me the same as you label him. It'll be an honor, knowing that you think so little of him.

You're failing to grasp the fact that I don't hate him. Really. I just think he's done a bad job with this, and over the course of his presidency. Tell me, who is the "absolute incompetence which resided in that chair for years"? I'm curious. Because I don't know the last president that I can safely say would've done a worse job

 

[Metranger]

I understand where you're coming from. It wasn't even his idea--I think his arch-nemesis in the Republican Senate Mitt Romney was first to come up with it. He loves to take credit for the positive efforts and ideas of other people. Kind of like a hornet that takes over a honeybee's nest. It's despicable. As far as America being like a banana republic--well generally it acts in the interests not of the population but of corporate interests and super wealthy and that's been an ongoing project from one administration to the next and without fail since Ronald Reagan started incorporating Milton Friedman's predatorial neo-liberal economic theories into our version of what capitalism is. Wealth is indemnified--poverty is not. In times of economic instability wealthy entities are bailed out as in 2009 and the population pays for it--also as in who almost all tax legislation is targeted to benefit--again it benefits corporations and the wealthy and not regular ordinary people. The Bush tax cuts that Obama protected. The Trump tax bill and even in this stimulus there is a massive bailout of the rich as 17 million Americans lose their jobs altogether. Biden is part of this corporate friendly picture too. Would he put his signature on a future stimulus check. Probably not but how much does it really matter. Biden if he does win the presidency is going to whether he likes it or not have to figure out how to restructure an economy with a massive employment and housing problem (millions of people not able to meet their rent or house payments)---with a massive climate change issue fueling all this as well. Do I think he or Trump are up for this job? No. They're going to have to deal with it anyway. So we're already kind of a banana republic right now but one with over 1000 overseas military bases and a massive nuclear arsenal.

I think Andrew Yang was the first to come up with the idea of $1,000 for every citizen.

 

[Fireonk]

I think Andrew Yang was the first to come up with the idea of $1,000 for every citizen.

He definitely didn't come up with the idea but he certainly did a lot to bring it into the popular discussion with his campaign this year.

 

[Off Sides]

You have to be concerned about everybody. This idea that the elderly are going to die soon is pretty damn cynical and not what I'd expect out of a political leader. I don't want to see them putting a $ value on anyone's life. The elderly have rights too.

Putting off elective surgery at the moment is a very good idea. As far as first responders but especially nurses and doctors these people need a prolonged break from the last month of endless days and nights of suffering and death. The stress involved must have gone through the roof about three weeks ago. I could see a great many of these people with PTSD symptoms and there's plenty of them who have caught the virus themselves. Any surgery that can be put off should be put off.

As far as food--my wife and I have lost part of our retirement but we're okay and we're going to be giving a good portion of our stimulus to the food bank. It's what it is--we're not really hurting financially.

I'm not that interested in the economy right now. What I'm interested in is doing it right the first time and doing everything we can to make sure there isn't a second time. So getting ahead and staying ahead of the virus should be the priority. I also think a grace period might be in order. Give those health care workers a month or two of relative peace and quiet and put them in a better place. So I wouldn't be rushing back into anything. When the time comes--slow and measured. And gyms don't seem like a great idea to me right now nor crowded restaurants--nor crowded anything. Massive testing is going to be a key. We don't seem to have that capability right now---that is something the Federal govt. could do much better a State govt. IMO. The Defense Production Act could be used to good effect here. Just saying.

I'm just going to sort of take the easy way out, I like to discuss stuff, yet I find it difficult in this environment.

(I have no financial interests or connection to any of the links I will offer) They just sum up a lot of my views much more eloquently than I ever could.

This is my first read of the day, it's a long read yet it seems pretty balanced and accurate.

Memos from Howard Marks

 

[True Blue]

Yeah, that's a huge problem which would limit things to the people with the antibodies. The 5 minute abbott test is interesting, I don't know what the cost is. But if you can get the cost down to the range of a buck and mass produced, you can test someone who walks in the the door 7 times a week

But that will not be available for quite a while. And by that time, all of those type of industries will be wiped off the fact of the country. And no one can afford that. Which is why I believe that once the band aid is ripped off, it is ripped off for good.

 

[True Blue]

Pages of people worried about when their favorite restaurant will open when you have people whos mothers and fathers are dying horrible painful deaths. Some truly are privileged and dont realize it.

I see no one talking about their favorite restaurants. I see people talking about the economy of this country and how close it can come to people standing in breadlines. That is not privilege.

 

[True Blue]

Now I know there are some people chomping at the bit willing to die for or sacrifice others to restart the economy. They've been looking for the numbers to go down and that's signal enough that this is under enough control. But it won't be under control if it overwhelms or even threatens to overwhelm your hospital system. And personally if I were a nurse or a doctor who has been through hell for the last couple months--watching hundreds and hundreds of people dying including some of my own work comrades and I were watching this thing spiking upward again because of the impatience to wait this out long enough--I would be 'f*** you, I'm out of here'. People do not have the right to risk others lives over their personal economic prospects.

I realize that talking about the economy may be distasteful given what is going on, but it is not about personal economical prospects. It is about what happens in this country if the ranks of the employed continue to swell. Once you wipe away entire industries and the unemployment rate spikes to let's say 35% nationwide, that means that there are segments of the country that it is over 50% with ZERO prospects of future employment. ZERO. At that point, and we are not that far away from it if not already there, the cure is worse than the disease. The death toll that will mount when more and more people become homeless, more and more people commit suicide, more and more people cannot put food on table will be far, far worse.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Go right ahead and label me the same as you label him. It'll be an honor, knowing that you think so little of him.

You're failing to grasp the fact that I don't hate him. Really. I just think he's done a bad job with this, and over the course of his presidency. Tell me, who is the "absolute incompetence which resided in that chair for years"? I'm curious. Because I don't know the last president that I can safely say would've done a worse job

might want to work on your messaging then b/c you give every indication you’re hardly in love with him. Tell you about “absolute incompetence”?, how do you think the current POTUS got in the chair? Is the media your venue for education and awareness? Quite an achievement and i wouldn’t be so honored to attach myself to somebody you just held in such high regard.

“bad job over the course of his Presidency” lol, ’ll take the high employment due to job creation and eliminating such ridiculous taxes as the excise tax on revenue from medical companies which wrecked R&D, etc, etc, etc. rather than these talking heads who apparently educate an otherwise clueless general public. Thankfully, enough don’t get fooled by the media.

 

[bl02]

While I agree with you @eco's bones I just don't think it is that simple. I don't think the restaurant/small business owner is wanting to risk others lives for their own personal gain. I think they are seeing their entire livelihood slipping away... everything they have worked so hard to build. I don't think the person who is watching his employer rapidly move into bankruptcy status and is wondering how they will provide for their family is wrong for the economy to restart.

My cousin works in oil. 80% of their techs are being laid off today. Middle class families.

Well said. We are in such a difficult spot right now. Unless you're a small business owner that has devoted his/her life for decades it's hard for people to understand. Supporting a family/mortgage/business/employees. For many it will be all gone. If i was a state or government employee still collecting a paycheck no matter what I obviously wouldn't be losing as much sleep.

 

[Tawnos]

I think Andrew Yang was the first to come up with the idea of $1,000 for every citizen.

His plan for universal basic income (which is not his idea originally. I wrote a paper on the idea more than 3 years ago) has nothing to do with one-time government stimulus. The idea of that isn’t Romney’s either, but he was the first to call for it in response to this crisis.

Yang was talking about doing it every month.

 

[True Blue]

Well said. We are in such a difficult spot right now. Unless you're a small business owner that has devoted his/her life for decades it's hard for people to understand. Supporting a family/mortgage/business/employees. For many it will be all gone. If i was a state or government employee still collecting a paycheck no matter what I obviously wouldn't be losing as much sleep.

People think that talking about economy is distasteful. That is easy enough to do when you are still collecting a paycheck. Once that dries up and you have no prospects of getting a job, that view changes quickly as social distancing completely collapses when people literally begin to form mass marches demanding the right to work.

Social distancing until 2021 is a novel concept. One that falls apart when you start thinking that Hoovervilles are not that far away. I gave examples of how let's say public accounting industry gets decimated. When you are talking about the entire food industry (restaurants and bar), gyms (from NY SportsCLub to Pilates studios), every single summer camp in America, every single day care facility, the costs are incalculable. Heck, even take a corporation like Apple. Once people start loosing real money, demand for their main product dries up. As the stores are closed or even operating at half capacity, people start to get laid off. The same people who are now working from home and collecting a paycheck. As demand for product continues to be driven down, it is not long until the corporation goes under. Where is the concept of social distancing then? Think the same people will continue to preach about how things need to remain closed?

This is not a conversation about wanting to go to your favorite restaurant. This is a conversation about how not to let the entire country go into a death spiral. Heck, for how long do you think that your local supermarket can survive operating only on half capacity?

 

[True Blue]

People are also not talking about the pro-longed effects of isolation on a human being. You are already seeing people slip into a full on depression. That will only get worse once more people loose jobs. Depression spikes, suicide rates spike, divorce spikes, domestic violence spikes, overall physical and mental health of the entire country gets much worse. Then factor in the economical nightmare that I outlined before and you really do not much of a country. Breadlines may be the least of the concerns as opposed to angry, marching mobs.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Well said. We are in such a difficult spot right now. Unless you're a small business owner that has devoted his/her life for decades it's hard for people to understand. Supporting a family/mortgage/business/employees. For many it will be all gone. If i was a state or government employee still collecting a paycheck no matter what I obviously wouldn't be losing as much sleep.

great post and agree

Scary times. With so many in this position, it’s complex, but we do have to figure out something for these small business’. It’s not like a business goes under and another slides in to take their place after this. This will be a Nationwide landslide of small and medium sized commercial real estate all vacant. Who is going to take their place? With what money?

Sadly, would it surprise any of us the mega rich clean up commercial real estate for cents?

Hard to believe this is the world we live in. A reality check that we’re all temps wandering around Nature’s planet and who is really in charge.

 

[JimmyG89]

The government giving a stimulus check just means that over the long haul they've been taxing everyone too much to begin with. Shouldn't need these checks if they just allowed people to keep their own money more often.

Your tax return is just them overcharging you and you not realizing (or maybe intentionally) giving the government an interest free loan for them to pay for all their garbage instead of focusing the tax revenue on the things we really need.

If they actually taxed people appropriately from the get go, they wouldn't need to refund you at all. Better yet, if they asked for payments, like a bill instead of just taking it from your check, everyone would have way more questions about why they need to take so much.

 

[NYSPORTS]

If they actually taxed people appropriately from the get go, they wouldn't need to refund you at all. Better yet, if they asked for payments, like a bill instead of just taking it from your check, everyone would have way more questions about why they need to take so much.

That’s true, however it can be really tough to follow and manage if you’re income varies year to year. It is an interest free loan to the Gov though