Conn Smythe after 3 rounds

[Hockeygod66]

Shared MVP's...hate it. Pick someone. They share the Stanley cup.

 

[Riptide]

It's an MVP award. It should not be shared by definition. What's next, shared Hart trophies?

And sorry but no, neither goalie has been the most valuable player during this playoff run. Fleury lost his job as the starter against an anemic trapping team, and Murray (if all goes well) will end up with only 7 wins these playoffs, instead of the standard 16 that a true CS winning goalie would typically have won before him. Murray missed more than half the playoffs, so he's also automatically out of the CS picture.

It would never happen because you can vote on players across the entire league. The CS voting is basically limited to players from two teams - and unless one on the losing team really really stepped up, one team.

If you had to pick a player individually, then sure pick any of Malkin, Guentzel or Crosby - all would be worthy. But none have been the real MVP of the team - that has been without a doubt (at least up until now) Pittsburgh's goalies - MAF and Murray. And realistically it'll be a shame that neither will get acknowledged as such.

 

[Bar Down]

Malkin is also playing very well defensively.

He is, don't get me wrong. I love Geno. But Crosby has been better on the back end. Also has been relied upon heavily for important face offs in the defensive zone.

 

[yuri28]

He is, don't get me wrong. I love Geno. But Crosby has been better on the back end. Also has been relied upon heavily for important face offs in the defensive zone.

Wow you're discovering Sid is more trusted than Geno on the dots.
Newsflashes, EVERY NHL center is better than Geno on face-offs so that argument is not going to make a big case for Sid winning the CS, especially as he has not been himself very good there during those POs.

 

[Bar Down]

Wow you're discovering Sid is more trusted than Geno on the dots.
Newsflashes, EVERY NHL center is better than Geno on face-offs so that argument is not going to make a big case for Sid winning the CS, especially as he is not been himself very good there during those POs.

I've discovered that winning important draws makes for a more valuable player. Eureka!

 

[LaP]

Wow you're discovering Sid is more trusted than Geno on the dots.
Newsflashes, EVERY NHL center is better than Geno on face-offs so that argument is not going to make a big case for Sid winning the CS, especially as he is not been himself very good there during those POs.

I knew faceoffs were overrated but not at the point of awarding a CS based on them.

 

[Bar Down]

I knew faceoffs were overrated but not at the point of awarding a CS based on them.

The two players would have to be within a few points of eachother, like two or three. But then, yes, when one is a captain the discussion will happen. Everything is a factor.

 

[yuri28]

The two players would have to be within a few points of eachother, like two or three. But then, yes, when one is a captain the discussion will happen. Everything is a factor.

Yeah everything including the number of points, +/- or goals scored, right?

 

[Bar Down]

Yeah everything including the number of points, +/- or goals scored, right?

Right. And things like 47 penalty minutes as opposed to 6.

 

[Ogrezilla]

I knew faceoffs were overrated but not at the point of awarding a CS based on them.

I think when faceoffs factor in to the ability or inability to trust a guy to take a defensive zone draw it is fair to factor that in to the CS.

That said, I still give Geno the lead for the CS right now.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

How is that your response to that? I'll ask it again, is the Baseball playoff MVP now a joke because 2 guys shared it in 2001?

Again, go ask in the baseball forum. I don't follow that sport, it has absolutely nothing to do with the history and legitimacy of the NHL awards.

Oh I forgot, you're a guy that hates Fleury and rips on him at any chance you can get. Why are road numbers all that matters? Why does his save% in wins (.956 save% in the playoffs) matter less than arbitrarily looking at his save% on the road (which was .916 before the Ottawa mess, which is hardly horrible). You're just picking and choosing which stats to look at because you don't like Fleury. It's flat out indisputable that he's the only reason the Penguins got passed Washington and he was absolutely fantastic in the playoffs up until game 3 against Ottawa. The Penguins aren't where they're at if Fleury isn't putting up a .950 save% in wins. That's simply a fact. The Penguins have won a ton of close games in the playoffs this year, especially when Fleury was in net, that they had no business in winning.

You can look at road save% all you want, but the point of games is to win them, not to put up good numbers on the road. In games where the Penguins won, Fleury was phenomenal and had to be phenomenal. Again, Fleury had a .956 save% in wins the Penguins had this year, including a .942 save% in wins on the road. If he wouldn't have done that, the Penguins would have been out in the second round.

Oh look, personal attacks. Listen, I'm not saying I only look at road stats (Fleury's are not good), I'm saying that Sullivan took that into consideration when he decided to move on from MAF.

The Pens were down in the series, 2 games to 1. They were playing game 4, on the road, in Ottawa. A 3-1 series deficit, with their injuries, would have been too deep a hole to overcome. It was a must-win game, on the road, and Sullivan knew Murray was a better bet to perform under those conditions than a guy who has struggled on the road all year. That's a fact, and it's not all that hard to grasp.

No, Fleury got yanked because Matt Murray is the Penguins starter and pretty clearly Sullivan's guy. The fact that you said that Fleury had "yet another bad road game" makes me question if you actually watched the playoffs this year. The only road games where Fleury was bad was game 4 against Columbus and game 3 against Ottawa.

No, thats just your opinion, and you're selling Sullivan short. See above. Fleury has had multiple bad road games and Murray was a better bet to perform on the road in game 4. Sullivan knew this and so made the switch.

And to be clear, Fleury has had 5 bad road games this playoffs alone, along with many more during the regular season. By "bad" I mean games in which his play ranged from subpar to absolutely terrible. In each of these games, Fleury let up 4+ goals and was below a .900 Sv%. I think most analysts would classify that as a weak game, for any goaltender.

And I'm not saying that only Murray deserves it, I'm saying the Penguins entire goaltending group has an argument for it. Which they obviously do.

They obviously don't, since the award has never been voted on that way before. Just an awful idea all round. Not to mention, Malkin would definitely be one of the two people sharing it this year.

 

[Riptide]

Oh look, personal attacks. Listen, I'm not saying I only look at road stats (Fleury's are not good), I'm saying that Sullivan took that into consideration when he decided to move on from MAF.

The Pens were down in the series, 2 games to 1. They were playing game 4, on the road, in Ottawa. A 3-1 series deficit, with their injuries, would have been too deep a hole to overcome. It was a must-win game, on the road, and Sullivan knew Murray was a better bet to perform under those conditions than a guy who has struggled on the road all year. That's a fact, and it's not all that hard to grasp.

LOL. What a pile of BS that your spinning desperately to fit your agenda. Sullivan gave Murray the exact same chance he gave Fleury last year. This isn't some grande conspiracy about how MAF sucks on the road. It was MAF's net until he stumbled, and when he did Murray got his chance. Same as last year.

Game 4 in Tampa Murray gets pulled for having a crap game. Fleury takes over, and then Fleury starts game 5. Just like this year where Fleury had a crap game and Murray took over when Fleury had a **** game. The difference between these is that Murray has played great since getting his chance where as MAF only played an average game 5 against Tampa.

Sullivan knew Murray was a better bet? Are we talking about the same Murray who had played a grande total of 45 minutes in the last 6 weeks? Yeah, I'm sure that's the case.

MAF's road stats against Washington: 3-1, .939%, 2.02 GAA, 1 SO. Yep absolutely terrible.

 

[Riptide]

No, thats just your opinion, and you're selling Sullivan short. See above. Fleury has had multiple bad road games and Murray was a better bet to perform on the road in game 4. Sullivan knew this and so made the switch.

Actually, this is just your opinion. And you're leaping to any and every conclusion possible to try and support your opinion - even when you have little to back it up.

 

[Empoleon8771]

In 2001 for MLB did they share it because they tied? Or because as a pair they were better than everyone else individually? Because if the second that absolutely is a joke...

Why not Karlsson and my dog?

Johnson and Schilling both had below a 1.75 ERA, I think Johnson had damn close to a 1.00 ERA and Schilling had like a 1.6 ERA. Both were on the Diamondbacks.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Again, go ask in the baseball forum. I don't follow that sport, it has absolutely nothing to do with the history and legitimacy of the NHL awards.

Why are you avoiding my question? It's a very simple question. If the NHL Playoff MVP would be tainted by giving it to 2 players, has the MLB playoff MVP already been tainted? It's a simple yes/no question, stop deflecting.

Oh look, personal attacks. Listen, I'm not saying I only look at road stats (Fleury's are not good), I'm saying that Sullivan took that into consideration when he decided to move on from MAF.

The Pens were down in the series, 2 games to 1. They were playing game 4, on the road, in Ottawa. A 3-1 series deficit, with their injuries, would have been too deep a hole to overcome. It was a must-win game, on the road, and Sullivan knew Murray was a better bet to perform under those conditions than a guy who has struggled on the road all year. That's a fact, and it's not all that hard to grasp.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this. Stop acting like you know exactly what Sullivan was thinking when he switched goalies. I think what he did was really simple: Murray is his guy and his starting goalie, and when Fleury showed that he might be done with his hot streak, Sullivan went back to his starter. That's it. Nothing with regards to home vs away games, it was a guy going with the goalie he was more comfortable with. Now, that's just my guess and a lot of people agree with it, but to say that he pulled Fleury because of his road stats is totally baseless.

No, thats just your opinion, and you're selling Sullivan short. See above. Fleury has had multiple bad road games and Murray was a better bet to perform on the road in game 4. Sullivan knew this and so made the switch.

And to be clear, Fleury has had 5 bad road games this playoffs alone, along with many more during the regular season. By "bad" I mean games in which his play ranged from subpar to absolutely terrible. In each of these games, Fleury let up 4+ goals and was below a .900 Sv%. I think most analysts would classify that as a weak game, for any goaltender.

No, you're passing off your assumption as law and using that to **** on Fleury. It's comically flawed logic, it's a perfect example of confirmation bias. "I think Fleury is bad because of his road stats and Sullivan pulled him, so therefore Sullivan pulled him because of his road stats".

And stat watching with goalies is so damn lazy. Did Murray have a bad game 1? 2 PP goals, one of which bounced off a Predators player, and a goal from a defensive breakdown? It's just lazy to look at save% to say a player has been bad.

They obviously don't, since the award has never been voted on that way before. Just an awful idea all round. Not to mention, Malkin would definitely be one of the two people sharing it this year.

I guess Trump could never win the presidency because a guy who wasn't a politician could never win the presidency, right? Just flawed logic after flawed logic with you.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Why are you avoiding my question? It's a very simple question.

It's not a hockey question.

You have absolutely no way of knowing this. Stop acting like you know exactly what Sullivan was thinking when he switched goalies. I think what he did was really simple: Murray is his guy and his starting goalie, and when Fleury showed that he might be done with his hot streak, Sullivan went back to his starter. That's it. Nothing with regards to home vs away games, it was a guy going with the goalie he was more comfortable with. Now, that's just my guess and a lot of people agree with it, but to say that he pulled Fleury because of his road stats is totally baseless.



No, you're passing off your assumption as law and using that to **** on Fleury. It's comically flawed logic, it's a perfect example of confirmation bias. "I think Fleury is bad because of his road stats and Sullivan pulled him, so therefore Sullivan pulled him because of his road stats".

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. All I said was he (likely) took this into consideration. Sullivan is the type of coach who looks at everything with his assistants, unlike you I assume his thought process was more than just "Must-win game? I'll throw in Murrs because he's my boy!"

And stat watching with goalies is so damn lazy. Did Murray have a bad game 1? 2 PP goals, one of which bounced off a Predators player, and a goal from a defensive breakdown? It's just lazy to look at save% to say a player has been bad.

"The stats prove me wrong? Screw statistics, they're for the lazy!"



I guess Trump could never win the presidency because a guy who wasn't a politician could never win the presidency, right? Just flawed logic after flawed logic with you.[/QUOTE]

Brilliant strawman. You sure kicked his butt.

 

[Riptide]

Nice attempt at putting words in my mouth. All I said was he (likely) took this into consideration. Sullivan is the type of coach who looks at everything with his assistants, unlike you I assume his thought process was more than just "Must-win game? I'll throw in Murrs because he's my boy!"

Actually that's not what you said.

Sullivan knew this and so made the switch

You're presenting it as a cold hard fact, when in reality it's nothing other than your opinion.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Actually that's not what you said.



You're presenting it as a cold hard fact, when in reality it's nothing other than your opinion.

You're right, that was poorly worded in retrospect. Did not mean to convey that as a fact.

Half our board mentioned Fleury's road struggles at some point during this season and/or playoffs, and speculated on the reasons for them. I find it rather difficult to believe Sullivan and his staff would have failed to take note at some point.

 

[Riptide]

You're right, that was poorly worded in retrospect. Did not mean to convey that as a fact.

Half our board mentioned Fleury's road struggles at some point during this season and/or playoffs, and speculated on the reasons for them. I find it rather difficult to believe Sullivan and his staff would have failed to take note at some point.

I think too many people are looking too hard at the reasoning. Sullivan gave Murray the exact same chance he gave Fleury last year. The difference is that Murray took advantage of it and has played great - even in his loss, while Fleury had a meh game that he lost which made it really easy to give the net back to Murray.