Common Sense Line-up for 2014-2015

[silkyjohnson50]

When the real season will start, you just send Mantha, Jurco and Pulkkinen to AhL and re-unite Zeta-Dats-Abdelkader.

It's that easy. We know already it works. Now let's just mentor those kids to let them get some taste from superstar talents.

But keep those new 2nd (Mule-Weiss-Nyquist) and 3rd (Tatar-Sheahan-Alfie) lines together already at pre-season to build some new chemistries they'll need.

We do?

I remember the 1st line getting better early last season once Abdelkader was "promoted to the 2nd line because they need him."

I'd hate to see Babcock settle on Abdelkader up top, because everyone knows we have plenty of potential options this season.

Likewise, I hate the fact that we could very well see Abdelkader be placed into that 3rd line wing where Jurco belongs.

Both lines are worse with Abdelkader there. I don't care that he's a big body. We have more than enough players to put Abdelkader where he belongs - playing wing on Helm's line.

 

[Run the Jewels]

We do?

I remember the 1st line getting better early last season once Abdelkader was "promoted to the 2nd line because they need him."

I'd hate to see Babcock settle on Abdelkader up top, because everyone knows we have plenty of potential options this season.

Likewise, I hate the fact that we could very well see Abdelkader be placed into that 3rd line wing where Jurco belongs.

Both lines are worse with Abdelkader there. I don't care that he's a big body. We have more than enough players to put Abdelkader where he belongs - playing wing on Helm's line.

It's a total joke having Abby on a scoring line. FFS, he has a career high of 10 goals and 28 points. And many of those goals came with Datsyuk using Abby as a pylon to redirect shots off him and into the goal.

By comparison Homer was a 16g, 40p guy at the same age as Abby. He also was a 0.72 PPG guy during the playoffs up to that point. Abby? 0.19 PPG in the playoffs.

When Homer was a regular alongside Z and Pavs in 2005 and 2006 he put up back to back 50+ point seasons. So let's just stop pretending Justin Abdelkader belongs on a scoring line. It's just embarrassing.

 

[Henkka]

When Abdelkader is on a scoring line, some other better skilled player is on lower lines to give better scoring depth. Easy Babcock logic to understand.

Maybe Babcock is the stupidest coach in the world when he is doing this.

 

[InjuredChoker]

that some other skilled player (jurco) will be in AHL.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

When Abdelkader is on a scoring line, some other better skilled player is on lower lines to give better scoring depth. Easy Babcock logic to understand.

Maybe Babcock is the stupidest coach in the world when he is doing this.

Yeah, just like when he put both Abdelkader and Cleary with Datsyuk. Literally one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen.

When Abdelkader is on a scoring line, that line is less effective:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfredsson was a better Corsi line than Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

The Sheahan-Tatar unit, both with Jurco and with Nyquist, was a better Corsi line than when Abdelkader got to spend time there

Even the dreaded Franzen-Weiss- Alfredsson line to start last season was a better Corsi unit than when Abdelkader got put there because "they needed him." The line actually got worse with Abdelkader.

Abdelkader is not a scoring line forward. Not with our depth this upcoming season. Being "heavy" and going to the front of the net is pointless when your team has the puck less. Abdelkader is a bottom 6 grinder. He's more effective there and the team's more effective with him there. He and Helm have been a very nice duo over he years. And that's how it should remain.

Babcock treats Abby like he's Homer and Homer he's definitely not. Homer was an actual top 6 forward. He was an offensive zone weapon. He was much better at winning puck/board battles than Abdelkader and just as importantly, he knew what to do with the puck when he actually won battles. He was great at quickly finding a linemate and then heading towards the net. Abdelkader doesn't have the vision, IQ, or puck protection ability that Homer had and thus he's not nearly as good a puck retrieval player. Winning a puck battles isn't really a win when you turn it back over before your team gets possession.

You talk about depth, but the word that you should really use is "dilute." Having a more effective top line is more important than having a more effective 3rd or 4th line.

Zetterberg, Alfredsson, Nyquist, Franzen, Tatar, Jurco are 6 wingers that are flat out better scoring line players than Abdelkader. Even Mantha would likely be more effective. Why should we settle with Abdelkader on a scoring line role? Where's the common sense in icing an inferior team?

 

[Henkka]

Yeah, just like when he put both Abdelkader and Cleary with Datsyuk. Literally one of the stupidest lines I've ever seen.

When Abdelkader is on a scoring line, that line is less effective:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfredsson was a better Corsi line than Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader

The Sheahan-Tatar unit, both with Jurco and with Nyquist, was a better Corsi line than when Abdelkader got to spend time there

Even the dreaded Franzen-Weiss- Alfredsson line to start last season was a better Corsi unit than when Abdelkader got put there because "they needed him." The line actually got worse with Abdelkader.

Abdelkader is not a scoring line forward.

Corsi measures amount of shot attempts. We know that. More shooting players create more shooting attempts.

But it's a different story how the shots will go past the opposite goalie with and without a net-front player.

Mike Babcock sees that as an important factor for our lines total effectivity. So is he an idiot or not?

That's all I'm gonna say.

Also net-front guys effectivity is impossible to measure with any stat. They won't get shots or assists if they stand there battling against defencemen and the puck goes past them in the net when goalie can't see anything. holmström would have been 80-point player if he would have got assists on his key screens which really affected on the scored goal. 20-30 key screen in every season and no any kind of mark to statistics.

Abdelkader is not holmström, but the same idea is still there. And it will help our team on the long run, you like it or not. It belongs to Mike Babock's system.

 

[InjuredChoker]

i might do project some time this week, and look at all the goals scored when datsyuk was on the ice. and how they came. the past two years, with and without abdelkader.

 

[Chance on Chance]

Why haven't other coaches caught on to playing worse player on the top line to make other lines better? You would think they would copy that strategy from Babcock. With the guys we can put in our top 9 theres no reason for Abby on the top line

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Corsi measures amount of shot attempts. We know that. More shooting players create more shooting attempts.

But it's a different story how the shots will go past the opposite goalie with and without a net-front player.

Mike Babcock sees that as an important factor for our lines total effectivity. So is he an idiot or not?

That's all I'm gonna say.

Also net-front guys effectivity is impossible to measure with any stat. They won't get shots or assists if they stand there battling against defencemen and the puck goes past them in the net when goalie can't see anything. holmström would have been 80-point player if he would have got assists on his key screens which really affected on the scored goal. 20-30 key screen in every season and no any kind of mark to statistics.

Abdelkader is not holmström, but the same idea is still there. And it will help our team on the long run, you like it or not. It belongs to Mike Babock's system.

Using the link that FrkIt posted earlier in the thread, I just crunched some even strength numbers regarding a few lines: Datsyuk-Zetterberg with and without Abdelkader and the Zetterberg-Nyquist duo with and without Abdelkader:

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Alfredsson scored 4 goals on only 41 CorsiFor events (0.100 %)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi scored 11 goals on 157 CF events (0.070%)

Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Abdelkader scored only 3 goals on 89 CF events (0.034%).

Zone pressure was twice and three times more likely to result in an actual goal for without Abdelkader on the ice.


Franzen-Zetterberg-Nyquist scored 5 goals on 64 CF events (0.078%)

Abdelkader-Zetterberg-Nyquist scored 10 goals on 157 CF events (0.064%)

Once again, the line was more effective in finding the back of the net without Abdelkader on the ice.

So please explain to us how Abdelkader is useful here when not just the Corsi, but the actual goals for percentage drop dramatically when he is on the ice?

Tell us more about the role of net front presence. The line with the best % was the line that had no big body, screener. But how is that possible? Skill players can actually manage without a turd on their line? Wow, shocking.

Even more damning is that every single one of those lines also had a worse goals for/goals against ratio when Abdelkader was on the ice.

So yeah, I do think that Babcock is an idiot when it comes to some things. Being one of the best coaches doesn't mean you are without flaw. He's not perfect and he's clearly making a mistake in this instance, just as he's done on many occasions (see playing time of Dan Cleary or usage of Brendan Smith or slowest 3rd line imaginable of Cleary-Andersson-Bertuzzi or Tatar sitting in the press box and on and on.)

Justin Abdelkader shouldn't be in a scoring role, period. Not with the roster that we have this season.

You can try to justify it anyway you want; there is no justification.

 

[Chance on Chance]

You can try to justify it anyway you want; there is no justification.

The justifcation will be Abby on the top line allows us a 3rd line of
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco and they can take advantage of other 3rd lines, not that that I agree with that reasoning.

 

[Frk It]

There is a reason Abdelkader was replaced while still healthy in favor of 40 year old Bertuzzi.

He wasn't getting the job done. Bertuzzi looked much better in the same role. Eye test matches those stats that silky posted.

 

[odin1981]

The justifcation will be Abby on the top line allows us a 3rd line of
Tatar-Sheahan-Jurco and they can take advantage of other 3rd lines, not that that I agree with that reasoning.

Not needed when you can run:

Z, Dats, Alfie/Mantha
Nyquist, Weiss ??, Franzen
Tatar, Sheahan, Jurco
Aby, Helm, miller/glendy

Granted assuming fully healthy. And Weiss is a big question mark. But you do not need abby on the top 2 lines to fill out 3 scoring lines. Abby is a good bottom 6 player. Nothing against him. But he belongs in the bottom 6 not the top 6.

 

[InjuredChoker]

red wings day on nhl.com. check it out.

also babs with some comments on mantha.


Sutter said the harder he was on him the harder he played. I loved to hear that. That means you're not a mental midget. That means you're finding a way. I thought that was a glowing review for the kid."

 

[Frk It]

Some quotes from Babcock regarding the upcoming season (wasn't sure where to put this)

"Two years ago, [Joakim] Andersson helped us get into the playoffs and gave us a good run in the playoffs as a third-line center, but last year he wasn't playing as much at the end," Babcock said. "We can't have that happen to the rest of these kids or we will miss the playoffs."

"We used to say in training camp, and I'd say it every year, 'The tie goes to the veteran,'" Babcock said. "Maybe the tie still goes to the veteran, but we've shown, and we did it last year, you're allowed to take guys' jobs and the best players are going to play."

In addition, Babcock is optimistic for bounce-back seasons from Howard, Ericsson and Helm. He also thinks Abdelkader is still improving at 27 years old.

"Those are all young guys going in the right direction," Babcock said.

Basically expect Abby on the top line. And vets to start the year, and kids to play as the year goes.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=728537&navid=M_DL|NHL|home

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

Babs does love to coach. So more coaching=more performance from a player is about the most appealing thing he's ever heard.

 

[Winger98]

Some quotes from Babcock regarding the upcoming season (wasn't sure where to put this)

Basically expect Abby on the top line. And vets to start the year, and kids to play as the year goes.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/m_news.htm?id=728537&navid=M_DL|NHL|home

so don't start watching until December when either injuries or ineffectiveness will push some lineup changes? I have a hard time reconciling the talk about how the kids need to play well to get us into the playoffs with how ties go to vets and all that.

 

[Frk It]

Its 30 for 30 for the Wings on nhl.com, and thought this was a good article on Weiss.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=728328&navid=DL|NHL|home

 

[Frk It]

so don't start watching until December when either injuries or ineffectiveness will push some lineup changes? I have a hard time reconciling the talk about how the kids need to play well to get us into the playoffs with how ties go to vets and all that.

I mean, basically. That's how I see it.

"Take guys job" = guy gets hurt.

 

[Frk It]

red wings day on nhl.com. check it out.

also babs with some comments on mantha.


Sutter said the harder he was on him the harder he played. I loved to hear that. That means you're not a mental midget. That means you're finding a way. I thought that was a glowing review for the kid."

I liked some of the other quotes sprinkled in there.

If you think you're going to play on a line with Pavel Datsyuk and say, 'Hey Pav, do the work,' well, Pav ain't doing that. So you've got to be a worker. You've got to put your work in front of your skill."

"I don't know a lot of guys who scored [57] goals in junior last year that are [6-foot-5] and shoot the puck like him," Babcock said. "There is room on every roster for great players. Is he mentally ready?"

 

[Kronwalled55]

If you think you're going to play on a line with Pavel Datsyuk and say, 'Hey Pav, do the work,' well, Pav ain't doing that. So you've got to be a worker. You've got to put your work in front of your skill."

I feel like that's a subtle jab towards Franzen.

They used to play together. Not so much anymore.

 

[Frk It]

I feel like that's a subtle jab towards Franzen.

Work in front of skill. It's a ringing endorsement for Abby and Cleary

 

[silkyjohnson50]

All Skill No Work - Datsyuk - All Work No Skill

And to wonder why Franzen-Datsyuk-Abdelkader makes my stomach upset.

The All Skill and No Skill cancel each other out and No Work and All Work cancel each other out which leaves us with just Datsyuk.

 

[The White Death]

So, adhering to the thread title and using common sense to deduct what the lines will actually be; I'm thinking opening night looks like:

Franzen Datsyuk Abs
Nyquist Z Alfie
Tatar Sheahan Cleary
Miller Helm Glendening


Kronner Big Rig
Quincey Smith
Kindl Lashoff

*Jurco, Mantha to Grand Rapids

Not sure if I missed anybody.

 

[Winger98]

So, adhering to the thread title and using common sense to deduct what the lines will actually be; I'm thinking opening night looks like:

Franzen Datsyuk Abs
Nyquist Z Alfie
Tatar Sheahan Cleary
Miller Helm Glendening


Kronner Big Rig
Quincey Smith
Kindl Lashoff

*Jurco, Mantha to Grand Rapids

Not sure if I missed anybody.

Weiss

 

[Number1RedWingsFan52]

So, adhering to the thread title and using common sense to deduct what the lines will actually be; I'm thinking opening night looks like:

Franzen Datsyuk Abs
Nyquist Z Alfie
Tatar Sheahan Cleary
Miller Helm Glendening


Kronner Big Rig
Quincey Smith
Kindl Lashoff

*Jurco, Mantha to Grand Rapids

Not sure if I missed anybody.

Where's Weiss he should be healthy enough.