Post-Game Talk: Cole's Plus/Minus: Pens vs. Rangers - What happened to the Rangers?

[Ugene Magic]

So MAF leading the league in wins and shutouts, 4th in GAA (for goalies who've played at least half the season), and 10 in S% (for goalies who've played at least half the season) has nothing to do with the Pens being 5th in G/A?

He said it's a team effort and is not MAF part of the team?

 

[KIRK]

The overall merits of the system don't even come into it. If it were a matter of other teams were adjusting, it wouldn't only be affecting a select few defensemen while most of the others look great. No need for histrionics - my argument's only about Maatta's hiccup.

Except everyone has those hiccups at times, sometimes a few of them in unison. None of them have played great ALL YEAR. Nisky probably is the closest.

I honestly don't get it. I'd argue that the system has enhanced Nisky's offfensive numbers but also has made him look overly silly at times. It's what I'm arguing about Maata and every other Pens defenseman. And, it exacerbates the potential for disasters against. You've got a system that puts a premium on PMD's and is a higher risk/higher reward proposition than most breakouts.

You seem to think the risks are about decisions alone. I think both the risks AND the rewards are about a system that accentuates the impact of decisions, both good and bad.

How is this any different than a forecheck, for example. You neutral zone trap, it's a lower risk/reward proposition than a 2 man forecheck with the third forward high in the offensive zone.

I never argued that the coaches are bad or that the system is inherently bad. I merely acknowledged that the system is high risk/high reward and as such accentuates the positive and negative impact of decisions and enhances the potential for bad decisions, both of which we've seen from Maatta in the last six weeks, the bad more recently.

 

[dueling mullets]

That works both ways. Don't you think the Pens defensive improvements have anything to do with Fleury being 4th in GAA and 10 in S%?

Since his first two starts Jeff Zatkoff has a .936 S% and 1.71 GAA. Does the defense not have anything to do with that?

JM's influence on defensive play, outstanding defensive depth, overrated regular d starters, and current goalie play are all interrelated factors, IMO. I'm just hoping that when the playoffs roll around, it doesn't all go to **** again

 

[KIRK]

Got it now. I don't know how much the both mentally and physically exhausted element is at fault, but I do recall Maatta often passing to the other d-man or just settling/re-looping (tired and can't think of word) in his own zone, where now he does it less and tries to go up ice instantly. I do see Despres making passes and/or breakouts unlike other Pen's D, and I've come to think that may be why the coaching staff doesn't like him, but I really don't know the X's and O's of hockey. Despres certainly passes the eye test though, at least for me.

Leaving Despres out of it, THIS is exactly what I'm talking about.

And, what happens when you rush the pass? If it works, then you're more likely to have a numbers advantage to exploit. At the same time, because you're making a more instantaneous action, the odds of making a bad decision are enhanced.

Apparently, some people question my choice of using Maatta as an example of both the good and now the bad.

 

[Waffle Fries]

JM's influence on defensive play, outstanding defensive depth, overrated regular d starters, and current goalie play are all interrelated factors, IMO. I'm just hoping that when the playoffs roll around, it doesn't all go to **** again

That's what I'm saying, minus the overrated starters part. What this team has done defensively this year deserves some credit. Everyone on the team has been a part of it, from the coaching, to the skaters, to the goalies.

And in no way is it comparable to GF when that is the product of having the best player in the game.

 

[Jaded-Fan]

As an observation, did anyone watch the Rangers bungle the stretch pass all game, and watch THE KING get lit up like the Christmas Tree in Times Square tonight and think about the Pens, and yes about Fleury?

Fleury deserves a lot of the criticism that he gets, but the Pens system over the years and Disco's stubborness with it certainly has played a factor as well.

 

[Ragamuffin Gunner]

That works both ways. Don't you think the Pens defensive improvements have anything to do with Fleury being 4th in GAA and 10 in S%?

Since his first two starts Jeff Zatkoff has a .936 S% and 1.71 GAA. Does the defense not have anything to do with that?

And don't Duper and JJ add to Sid and Geno's point totals?

My point is that they're both terrible arguments.

 

[Ugene Magic]

JM's influence on defensive play, outstanding defensive depth, overrated regular d starters, and current goalie play are all interrelated factors, IMO. I'm just hoping that when the playoffs roll around, it doesn't all go to **** again

It all comes down to the little details and execution. This is on the players whether they'll pay attention and actually do them. That and the rest of the factors that normally go into winning in the post season. They seem easily distracted. Focus on the prize and have a collective goal/plan. Live/play by it and ignore the rest.

 

[dueling mullets]

Leaving Despres out of it, THIS is exactly what I'm talking about.

And, what happens when you rush the pass? If it works, then you're more likely to have a numbers advantage to exploit. At the same time, because you're making a more instantaneous action, the odds of making a bad decision are enhanced.

Apparently, some people question my choice of using Maatta as an example of both the good and now the bad.

Yeah, I'm hoping it's just exhaustion and it's all interrelated. His defensive play has been terrible lately, so I'm just going to hope his confidence is low and effecting his entire game. The system is very unforgiving for a player not on top of his game: Martin a few years ago, Letang at times. I still have hope they simplify it/allow for patience on the breakout for the playoffs.

 

[KIRK]

It all comes down to the little details and execution. This is on the players whether they'll pay attention and actually do them. That and the rest of the factors that normally go into winning in the post season. They seem easily distracted. Focus on the prize and have a collective goal/plan. Live/play by it and ignore the rest.

We do what we do, and what they do doesn't matter? Or was lip service being paid to the latter with the 'rest of the factors that normally go into winning in the post season'?

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Except everyone has those hiccups at times, sometimes a few of them in unison. None of them have played great ALL YEAR. Nisky probably is the closest.

I honestly don't get it. I'd argue that the system has enhanced Nisky's offfensive numbers but also has made him look overly silly at times. It's what I'm arguing about Maata and every other Pens defenseman. And, it exacerbates the potential for disasters against. You've got a system that puts a premium on PMD's and is a higher risk/higher reward proposition than most breakouts.

You seem to think the risks are about decisions alone. I think both the risks AND the rewards are about a system that accentuates the impact of decisions, both good and bad.

How is this any different than a forecheck, for example. You neutral zone trap, it's a lower risk/reward proposition than a 2 man forecheck with the third forward high in the offensive zone.

I never argued that the coaches are bad or that the system is inherently bad. I merely acknowledged that the system is high risk/high reward and as such accentuates the positive and negative impact of decisions and enhances the potential for bad decisions, both of which we've seen from Maatta in the last six weeks, the bad more recently.

I'm confused. If this were about the complexity of the Pens system all along, what was the purpose of this:

Tired? In part. Bad decisions? Sure, although there's a fine line between bad decisions and a team adjusting/executing back.

A team "adjusting/executing back" really has nothing to do with Maatta's current problems, in that case. It's Maatta making mistakes that he wasn't making before (and others aren't making now) in an involved system where defensemen need to be sharp. That's on Maatta, not anyone else.

 

[KIRK]

Yeah, I'm hoping it's just exhaustion and it's all interrelated. His defensive play has been terrible lately, so I'm just going to hope his confidence is low and effecting his entire game. The system is very unforgiving for a player not on top of his game: Martin a few years ago, Letang at times. I still have hope they simplify it/allow for patience on the breakout for the playoffs.

If you're exhausted, then the likelihood of making a bad decision increases in direct proportion.

If you're rushing to make that first pass (often turning and moving the puck up ice in one motion where you're expecting your players and other players to be in certain positions), then the likelihood of making a bad decision increases in direct proportion to the speed with which you move the puck.

If an opposing team game plans and its players play with the intensity of a playoff game (either because it's the playoffs or figuratively speaking), then the likelihood of a bad decision increases proportionally.

Never argued that one factor was most significant or that they weren't in some measure interrelated.

 

[ColePens]

As an observation, did anyone watch the Rangers bungle the stretch pass all game, and watch THE KING get lit up like the Christmas Tree in Times Square tonight and think about the Pens, and yes about Fleury?

Fleury deserves a lot of the criticism that he gets, but the Pens system over the years and Disco's stubborness with it certainly has played a factor as well.

I don't even know what the Rangers were trying to do. Hank looked like playoff Fleury tonight.

The biggest problem I see with the Rangers is poor identity and an AWFUL standing around d-zone. I just don't even recognize that team at all.

 

[Ugene Magic]

We do what we do, and what they do doesn't matter? Or was lip service being paid to the latter with the 'rest of the factors that normally go into winning in the post season'?

The point is don't get caught up in what the other team is trying to get you to do. (Flyers/Boston) Getting under their skin and distracting them from the main goal. (Winning the game)

The other things that go into winning in the post season are, Health, Luck, ect...usually things they can't control. But paying attention to details, executing them, and staying out of the psycho BS before/during/after the whistle is very much needed. Just do the job and get it done.

 

[Michael8771*]

I don't even know what the Rangers were trying to do. Hank looked like playoff Fleury tonight.

The biggest problem I see with the Rangers is poor identity and an AWFUL standing around d-zone. I just don't even recognize that team at all.

I know they have some players who can flat out skate but overall I don't think they have a lot of foot speed as a team. It was pretty clear in transition we were the quicker team. The Pens have problems with teams who can flat out skate. I really believe our quickness as far as getting to loose pucks in dangerous areas accentuated the score. Overall talent I'd give them the edge.

 

[KIRK]

I'm confused. If this were about the complexity of the Pens system all along, what was the purpose of this:



A team "adjusting/executing back" really has nothing to do with Maatta's current problems, in that case. It's Maatta making mistakes that he wasn't making before (and others aren't making now) in an involved system where defensemen need to be sharp. That's on Maatta, not anyone else.

See what I just wrote above. I hope that clarifies. Otherwise, I've got no idea what further to do.

Let me ask you this: If you do something in a hurry, then what's the upside? You finish first. What's the downside? You're more likely to make a mistake.

That's all the Pens quick breakouts and having defensemen exit the zone quickly is about. If it works, they're pressing an advantage (or mitigating a talent disadvantage due to injuries). But, the downside is that the likelihood of a mistake increases.

I see two factors at play . . .

1. Maatta is spent, which makes bad decisions more likely.
2. He's rushing to throw the puck up ice, which is what the system calls for, and is seeing the downside of the increased likelihood of mistakes, just as he was seeing the upside of the system vis-a-vis his offensive game, four weeks ago.

Two lesser factors:

1. There's a lot of turning and moving the puck in one motion, and what he's expecting to see in terms of where his players and the other team's players are isn't what is happening.
2. Little confidence.

What factor accounts for what in terms of Maatta hitting a wall? I don't know. What was it for Letang earlier this year? Nisky when he had a few off weeks? Orpik always? Even Martin at times? Everyone is different. But, you've still got a high risk/high reward system that is a factor, admittedly to different degrees, in both the good and the bad, with Maatta and anyone else.

 

[dueling mullets]

If you're exhausted, then the likelihood of making a bad decision increases in direct proportion.

If you're rushing to make that first pass (often turning and moving the puck up ice in one motion where you're expecting your players and other players to be in certain positions), then the likelihood of making a bad decision increases in direct proportion to the speed with which you move the puck.

If an opposing team game plans and its players play with the intensity of a playoff game (either because it's the playoffs or figuratively speaking), then the likelihood of a bad decision increases proportionally.

Never argued that one factor was most significant or that they weren't in some measure interrelated.

Yeah, not disagreeing, just writing out my mumblings while I can't sleep. I do wonder how much a bad decision can be attributed the game plan both for and against vs individual player. Obviously it's a combo of both, but I really don't want to see the same defensive play as in recent playoffs. Playoff hockey is such a marvelous thing: it's both incredible and extremely frustrating in that the difference in play makes the regulator season so long when you know the Pens are going to make it but their Achilles heel is the playoffs.

 

[KIRK]

The point is don't get caught up in what the other team is trying to get you to do. (Flyers/Boston) Getting under their skin and distracting them from the main goal. (Winning the game)

The other things that go into winning in the post season are, Health, Luck, ect...usually things they can't control. But paying attention to details, executing them, and staying out of the psycho BS before/during/after the whistle is very much needed. Just do the job and get it done.

I can get on board with that, although I'm still concerned with what the other team does tactically and how, if at all, the Pens adjust. I do think that's a big factor.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Pathetic performance by the rags. That team is in trouble.

Nice to see juicy back from witness protection.

I want to see how this team plays against by a playoff team. Has the eastern conference ever been this bad?

 

[Michael8771*]

Pathetic performance by the rags. That team is in trouble.

Nice to see juicy back from witness protection.

I want to see how this team plays again by a playoff team.

And as great as we looked tonight we were that bad in NJ. We love that home cooking.

 

[JimmyTwoTimes]

Bottom line is in order for us to win the cup with this system is we need fleury to do what he did in 09.

 

[Waffle Fries]

And don't Duper and JJ add to Sid and Geno's point totals?

My point is that they're both terrible arguments.

Well when Dupuis literally goes 23 games without scoring a single goal with Sid on the ice, no.

And my point is that everyone credit is deserved for the defensive improvements we've seen this year. It shows both statistically and in the eye test.

I don't even know what the Rangers were trying to do. Hank looked like playoff Fleury tonight.

The biggest problem I see with the Rangers is poor identity and an AWFUL standing around d-zone. I just don't even recognize that team at all.

Yeah I was amazed at how we seemingly were able to do whatever we wanted in front of the Ranger's net.

 

[Fire Shero*]

Bottom line is in order for us to win the cup with this system is we need fleury to do what he did in 09.

Something he's been unable to do since. Maybe the sports shrink restored his self confidence.

 

[ObsessedCreative*]

Bottom line is in order for us to win the cup with this system is we need fleury to do what he did in 09.

There are still about 2-3 other things that this team needs to even think about being close tossing a chance to win a cup.

 

[AjaxTelamon]

You can see why they want Engo out there, he's the only guy we have with a real enforcer's mentality. And he's not bad at hockey. He shows enough positives with a few games at wing that I'd really like them to keep that up.

What's better, is that he completely makes Glass irrelevant.