Player Discussion: Cole Sillinger thread

[majormajor]

forwards, famously, are the position best known for preventing goals in 4v5 situations.

From my playing experience I was pretty happy to be a PK D-man. You don't have to cover that much ice so it's easy to take a step and adjust your position. Forward PKers have a harder job, they've got to race out to the points and the half wall and all the while make sure to keep the cross ice seam closed. When the PK really falls apart and gets picked apart with seam passes, it's usually because the forwards can't sync up with each other.

But hey, maybe you're right and it doesn't matter who is out there on the forward PK.

 

[stevo61]

Im sure oir PK would be no better with someone like Brad Marchand in the forward position instead of Sillinger. Really you could just throw anyone out there I guess. 4 defensemen would be a cheat code

 

[majormajor]

Im sure oir PK would be no better with someone like Brad Marchand in the forward position instead of Sillinger. Really you could just throw anyone out there I guess. 4 defensemen would be a cheat code

I'm honestly not sure if you're joking or not.

I don't have well developed thoughts about the qualities of PKers, but I generally think the personnel has to matter to some degree.

 

[stevo61]

I'm honestly not sure if you're joking or not.

I don't have well developed thoughts about the qualities of PKers, but I generally think the personnel has to matter to some degree.

Im joking, as I thought would be obvious by putting a guy Id consider an elite PKer throughout his career in the post. Just seems wild to me to act like forward arent a major part of a penalty kill

 

[CBJx614]

 

[NotWendell]

It's refreshing to see someone here actually bounce back from their sophomore slump.

 

[NORiculous]

40 pts and 100+ hits this year?

It seems he has been in the league so long but is still only 21!

 

[S1N4TR4]

19 assists 32 points in 77 games this season.

let’s hypothetically say he plays 77 games this season… he’s currently on pace for:

41 assists, 53 points.

I don’t think we’re talking enough about the growth cole has taken this year.

he’s also sitting at over a 47 percent faceoff percentage which is absolutely a career high.

 

[alphafox]

40 pts and 100+ hits this year?

It seems he has been in the league so long but is still only 21!

Wildly underrated point. I have seesawed on Sillinger based on the epic Sophmore slump and the organizations terrible track record of bringing up talent. At this point I still think his ceiling is lower than I had initially hoped when we drafted him as I thought he had a plus shot and would be more of a sniper in the half ice, instead I now think of him more as a Jordan Staal role if everything works out. A terribly over qualified 3rd pair guy that is a nightmare for other teams depth to have to deal with. That play style also requires a alot of strength development and I think with Sillinger being so young it's really hurt how he has been able to play, but on the bright side I think he still has quite a bit of room to grow just from physical development and gym time.

 

[Xoggz22]

I think he'll always be a polarizing player for this crowd. For some he has a higher ceiling, for others he's no better than a replacement player. And I don't think either side is changing their tune so we'll just enjoy the show.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

I think he'll always be a polarizing player for this crowd. For some he has a higher ceiling, for others he's no better than a replacement player. And I don't think either side is changing their tune so we'll just enjoy the show.

the image of him struggling in his second year has been seared into some folks' consciousness and warped their perception of the player.

there are four main things i keep coming back to with sillinger:

1. the production this year is really good (scoring at a 57-point pace with zero power play points)
2. the coaching staff clearly trusts him and is feeding him minutes in key situations – he's only playing about a minute less per night than sean monahan (!!)
3. he's still one of the youngest forwards in the entire league
4. two crucial elements of his game that held him back (skating + playmaking) have significantly improved this year

i don't think there's much of an argument against cole's long-term projection as a top-six forward given that, based on production/usage, he essentially already is one. that's not to say that he should be seen as an untouchable core piece – i think his long-term fit here is probably a bigger question than his long-term projection.

 

[VT]

I think it would be ideal if he was a Jordan Staal/Yanni Gourde type (I'm not comparing styles in his case). Reliable third line center, two-way player, physical player who has offensive instincts.

 

[MoeBartoli]

I think it would be ideal if he was a Jordan Staal/Yanni Gourde type (I'm not comparing styles in his case). Reliable third line center, two-way player, physical player who has offensive instincts.

That’s how I see Cole adding I see him having top quartile 3C potential. He’s played pretty well this year - has been out second best center showing me more upside that I’d have pegged before the season began though I realize his limitations too.

 

[VT]

That’s how I see Cole adding I see him having top quartile 3C potential. He’s played pretty well this year - has been out second best center showing me more upside that I’d have pegged before the season began though I realize his limitations too.

For the future we have Monahan and Fantilli, then Lindstrom. We can use Voronkov if we want to convert Adam to a winger. But such 3rd line centers are very much needed. Don't forget that Jenner used to be injured and his age isn't helping.

 

[Xoggz22]

For the future we have Monahan and Fantilli, then Lindstrom. We can use Voronkov if we want to convert Adam to a winger. But such 3rd line centers are very much needed. Don't forget that Jenner used to be injured and his age isn't helping.

I think it's going to be another 3-4 years before Lindstrom plays center very high in an NHL lineup at that point I think Monahan would be on the move. I don't like to presume what 3-4 years down the road look like but it could very well be that Fantilli ends up as a wing and Voronkov moves into a center role. Personally, I would love to see Fantilli and Lindstrom hit their ceiling or just be the top 6 centers we drafted them to be. I would absolutely drool over some combination of Fantilli, Lindstrom and Sillinger as the top 3 centers on this team. It's truly unlikely but man if they hit... that would be killer.

 

[majormajor]

I think he'll always be a polarizing player for this crowd. For some he has a higher ceiling, for others he's no better than a replacement player. And I don't think either side is changing their tune so we'll just enjoy the show.

That's not accurate. As the one who described his play last year as "replacement level", I made it pretty clear that that was describing the level he was at. I've always been open to upgrading my assessment of Cole as he improves. And I think most people here are fine doing that.

the image of him struggling in his second year has been seared into some folks' consciousness and warped their perception of the player.

there are four main things i keep coming back to with sillinger:

1. the production this year is really good (scoring at a 57-point pace with zero power play points)
2. the coaching staff clearly trusts him and is feeding him minutes in key situations – he's only playing about a minute less per night than sean monahan (!!)
3. he's still one of the youngest forwards in the entire league
4. two crucial elements of his game that held him back (skating + playmaking) have significantly improved this year

The improvements in the skating is the big thing, that's why I've become more optimistic with him, and not because of the point totals. I'm not persuaded that he's definitely going to be a big assist guy. The passing is very volatile game to game.

i don't think there's much of an argument against cole's long-term projection as a top-six forward given that, based on production/usage, he essentially already is one. that's not to say that he should be seen as an untouchable core piece – i think his long-term fit here is probably a bigger question than his long-term projection.

Long term projections based on short samples of points, as you know, do not close the book on what a players projection is. No, we can't be sure that he's a top six guy. I'm sure you remember Alex Wennberg setting his career highs in his third season. In Sillinger's case, I think the assist totals might be a bit misleading. He's still at 41% xGF and it's rare to drive a lot of scoring that way.

I think it would be ideal if he was a Jordan Staal/Yanni Gourde type (I'm not comparing styles in his case). Reliable third line center, two-way player, physical player who has offensive instincts.

Those guys were possession monsters, so far Cole is the opposite.

 

[cbjthrowaway]

The improvements in the skating is the big thing, that's why I've become more optimistic with him, and not because of the point totals. I'm not persuaded that he's definitely going to be a big assist guy. The passing is very volatile game to game.

there's enough give-and-take in his statistical profile for me to think that the production (50-60 point range) is sustainable, and young enough (21) for me to think he has runway to keep improving.

• assist-heavy profile, BUT
  • far more primary (10) than secondary (4)
  • isn't riding the coattails of guys who produce a lot (has spent a lot of time with fantilli, pyyhtia and olivier this year)
• small sample size, BUT
  • it isn't getting lifted by power play production
  • his shooting percentage is really low (6.3%) and should be higher by the end of the season

Long term projections based on short samples of points, as you know, do not close the book on what a players projection is. No, we can't be sure that he's a top six guy. I'm sure you remember Alex Wennberg setting his career highs in his third season. In Sillinger's case, I think the assist totals might be a bit misleading. He's still at 41% xGF and it's rare to drive a lot of scoring that way.

wennberg is a fascinating (and extremely odd) player at the statistical level.

he was deployed as a first line player in that breakout season, but his ATOI that season (18:23) is right around what it's been since he left columbus (18:14). he's gotten top six ice time with bottom six production for a long time.

the elephant in the room here, though, is that the trajectory of wennberg's career clearly changed after he took a dirty hit to the head from tom wilson. can't just paint a picture of wennberg's career with broad strokes and leave that part out.

Those guys were possession monsters, so far Cole is the opposite.

sure, but also worth noting that one of those guys (yanni gourde) didn't become a full-time NHL player until 26 (five years older than sillinger is right now!) and did so on a stacked tampa team that was setting regular-season records.

outside of the 22-23 season, where seattle was a really good team, his profile hasn't been nearly as good since leaving the bolts.

 

[VT]

there's enough give-and-take in his statistical profile for me to think that the production (50-60 point range) is sustainable, and young enough (21) for me to think he has runway to keep improving.

• assist-heavy profile, BUT
  • far more primary (10) than secondary (4)
  • isn't riding the coattails of guys who produce a lot (has spent a lot of time with fantilli, pyyhtia and olivier this year)
• small sample size, BUT
  • it isn't getting lifted by power play production
  • his shooting percentage is really low (6.3%) and should be higher by the end of the season

wennberg is a fascinating (and extremely odd) player at the statistical level.

he was deployed as a first line player in that breakout season, but his ATOI that season (18:23) is right around what it's been since he left columbus (18:14). he's gotten top six ice time with bottom six production for a long time.

the elephant in the room here, though, is that the trajectory of wennberg's career clearly changed after he took a dirty hit to the head from tom wilson. can't just paint a picture of wennberg's career with broad strokes and leave that part out.

sure, but also worth noting that one of those guys (yanni gourde) didn't become a full-time NHL player until 26 (five years older than sillinger is right now!) and did so on a stacked tampa team that was setting regular-season records.

outside of the 22-23 season, where seattle was a really good team, his profile hasn't been nearly as good since leaving the bolts.

That's exactly the point. We keep forgetting that Sillinger is very young, he doesn't usually play with players who would fit him typologically. The ideal one was Chinakhov, unfortunately Yegor got injured. I also liked him with ZAR and Olivier, but he won't score many points with them. I would have liked a line of Chinakhov - Sillinger - Danforth.

 

[Xoggz22]

That's not accurate. As the one who described his play last year as "replacement level", I made it pretty clear that that was describing the level he was at. I've always been open to upgrading my assessment of Cole as he improves. And I think most people here are fine doing that.

And just because you and I disagree(d) on his outlook or play doesn't mean I was pointing this at you. It is accurate. Some on here do feel he is not a NHL player and I'm not sure I understand your difference between saying "replacement level" and "replacement player". But I'm not going to push this topic. I don't mind the opinions and actually enjoy seeing how players turn out that are as polarizing as Cole has been/is. Like most young players people form an opinion early on and have a hard time changing. That doesn't mean I think YOU won't change. It's called a general statement.

 

[majormajor]

And just because you and I disagree(d) on his outlook or play doesn't mean I was pointing this at you. It is accurate. Some on here do feel he is not a NHL player and I'm not sure I understand your difference between saying "replacement level" and "replacement player". But I'm not going to push this topic. I don't mind the opinions and actually enjoy seeing how players turn out that are as polarizing as Cole has been/is. Like most young players people form an opinion early on and have a hard time changing. That doesn't mean I think YOU won't change. It's called a general statement.

It's not that I thought it was about my comments, but if your point didn't apply to me, I was wondering who it would be, because I don't see people being that vocally obstinate about Cole in the way you describe. We all recognize him improving a lot over each of the last couple years. I wasn't using replacement level and replacement player differently. They're the same to me.

 

[Forepar]

I think he'll always be a polarizing player for this crowd. For some he has a higher ceiling, for others he's no better than a replacement player. And I don't think either side is changing their tune so we'll just enjoy the show.

Popcorn, anyone?

 

[CBJWerenski8]

As someone who defended Silly in the past, I must say his statline looks better than how I feel he’s actually playing.

I don’t think he’s playing poorly, mind you. This isn’t a case of what it was a few years ago when he was drowning. But I haven’t thought to myself “wow, silly is really playing well tonight.” Too often I feel. But I also haven’t thought he’s been bad too often either.

I could be wrong though.

 

[Forepar]

It's not that I thought it was about my comments, but if your point didn't apply to me, I was wondering who it would be, because I don't see people being that vocally obstinate about Cole in the way you describe. We all recognize him improving a lot over each of the last couple years. I wasn't using replacement level and replacement player differently. They're the same to me.

Xoggx "Some on here do feel he is not a NHL player"


We've been "bussed" on this one.
Has not been the quantity of posters, but quantity of postings.
All from the Roster/Line Combo thread in the past 3+ weeks.

This Sillinger stuff is ridiculous. He’s been the worst player on his line the entire year and arguably held back whatever line he’s been on, no matter who he’s played with.

...

What are you talking about!?! I’m talking about Sillinger. And him in relation to Dubinsky, and yes, Pyyhtia, who YES, I think is a better player right now than Sillinger. He’s playing with arguably our 2 most impactful wingers of the entire season, along with having plenty of good linemates throughout the year.


...


What the hell has been “refuted”, miss fact checker?? Pyyhtia > Sillinger
Ditto x 1000

What are you talking about. You understand this is all your imagination, correct??

...

1st, Sillinger is nowhere near the player that Dubinsky was, and that the individual player “points” shouldn’t be compared because scoring is different now, along with the fact that Dubinsky played a much more defensive and “matchup” style TOI deployment, and that the team actually WON GAMES when Dubinsky was playing a similar role.

2. Pyyhtia is a better player than Sillinger, right now. Maybe not in 4 years. But, he is right now. AND NO I DONT CARE ABOUT THE POINTS.

He’s also a bad at handling the puck and passing, and essentially adds nothing as a “playmaker” and adds nothing to improve his linemates offensive production.

The difference guys have playing with Monahan in relation to Sillinger can barely be put into words.

And to add, I think he’s pretty terrible defensively and shouldn’t be in the PK. His “reads” both offensively and defensively are poor, IMO.

...

Kuraly should come out. Then Labanc or Sillinger. I’d put JVR in more games over these other guys.

Possibly…JVR —ZAR (Jenner)—Olivier 3rd line

Or..JVR—ZAR—Danforth/Sillinger/Labanc 4th line

...

I’m to the point where I think all our young forwards besides Sillinger should be built around long term.

Lindstrom+Sillinger/Christiansen+1st package gets us what….

I like many of Bus' recent comments, especially this season, on a number of topics. But the drumbeat on Sillinger makes it feel like more than just Bus. It hasn't been this season.