The Martin St Louis Thread

[Habnot]

I am not sure it's a development thing for Barron. You don't develop toughness - he just plays a very passive defensive game (some would label it soft).

 

[Rapala]

Funnily enough the defensive coverage has changed : if you look at the center positioning in the Dzone in many instances he covers the slot which was not the case earlier in the season. This was a positive adjustment. In addition, they tend to keep one Dman close to the net in every situation whereas early in the season you could see Caufield trying to protect the crease. Another positive adjustment. He is going by the motto : "identify the mistakes, correct them but never admit them"

We don't see what goes on behind the scenes but MSL has improved as a coach.
X's and O's are one thing but the best way for us to see and understand the areas he's making advances in is with his real time game management.

I don't think I'm wrong when saying it's been far better this past month or so.
It starts with getting proper personnel deployment at critical junctures.

Not giving up multiple goals in short order and also not giving up a goals immediately after scoring.
The end of periods seem to present a challenge but I'm sure the players are aware of it.

I'm not one who believes coaching is overrated and it's nice to see progression.

 

[tazsub3]

I think it’s unfair to say Baron didn’t figure it out. The guy’s just starting his career and we just couldn’t wait for it. Developing blueliners takes time.

Maybe you are right , I was very high on him , but honestly do not see the hockey iq . Maybe a change of scenery will help him but I have my doubts now

 

[Deus ex machina]

He’s played around 100 games. He’s a work in progress. It’s way too soon to write him off.

And I absolutely love that you highlighted one sentence in my quoted post there and skipped over its actual meaning. In that very post I pointed out that people were far too impatient with MSL. Now here you are doing the same thing with a young player like Baron.

I agreed with the trade, we needed to make it. Barron was going to struggle under these circumstances- that is not an excuse - and he’ll be better off in Nashville. And we desperately needed help.

Will he make it or bust? I don’t know any than you do. But he’ll have more opportunity there than he would here.

I thought your quote was just perfect in this context too.
You should listen to yourself.

He's not better in Nashville.
It's not circumstances, it's the player. He had plenty of chances.

 

[Victoire HuGo]

I am not sure it's a development thing for Barron. You don't develop toughness - he just plays a very passive defensive game (some would label it soft).

He was more physical to start the season. Then his confidence became shaky and then that brutal Trouba hit was the nail in the coffin. 12 hits in 7 games before hit. 9 hits in 13 games since.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Maybe you are right , I was very high on him , but honestly do not see the hockey iq . Maybe a change of scenery will help him but I have my doubts now

You might be right. I'd have expected to see more from him. Again though, not ideal circumstances. We'll see on the change of scenery.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I thought your quote was just perfect in this context too.
You should listen to yourself.

He's not better in Nashville.
It's not circumstances, it's the player. He had plenty of chances.

Tons of players are late bloomers. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that he's going to fulfill his potential but it's too soon to say that he's a bust. Most blueliners aren't even in the league until age 23, 24...

---

 

[Habnot]

He was more physical to start the season. Then his confidence became shaky and then that brutal Trouba hit was the nail in the coffin. 12 hits in 7 games before hit. 9 hits in 13 games since.

The only development/career path for Barron, and this was apparent in his draft year, was that his offensive upside would surpass his physical/defensive capabilities. Unfortunately, his offensive game did not get to that threshold - and I would say not even close. He couldn't even produce consistently at the AHL level.

 

[Deus ex machina]

Tons of players are late bloomers. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that he's going to fulfill his potential but it's too soon to say.

You could say that for every player that don't pan out quickly. A lot of them never do.
You need to have a reason for believing the player will improve with time and development.
If the player has fatal flaws, it will never happen.

Anyway, we disagree on the player and that's ok.
It's just the way you bent over backwards and threw other players under the bus to come up with a way to excuse him that made me react.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You could say that for every player that don't pan out quickly. A lot of them never do.
You need to have a reason for believing the player will improve with time and development.
If the player has fatal flaws, it will never happen.

Anyway, we disagree on the player and that's ok.
It's just the way you bent over backwards and threw other players under the bus to come up with a way to excuse him that made me react.

I'm not excusing anything. He's a 23 year old player... he doesn't need an excuse.

He's either going to develop or he's not. Given our circumstances, we can't wait for him to find his game. Totally different story if this was three years ago but right now we can't do it. We badly needed help and got it.

And of course some players don't pan out. Who'd disagree with that? I don't know if he'll pan out or not but to just write him off right now doesn't make any sense to me. He has all the tools. Big, speedy, good hands and right shot. Nashville took a gamble and it may pay off well for them. This is the beginning of the story for him, not the end. I just think people are far to quick to write people off and young blueliners take time.

 

[Deus ex machina]

I'm not excusing anything. He's a 23 year old player... he doesn't need an excuse.

He's either going to develop or he's not. Given our circumstances, we can't wait for him to find his game. Totally different story if this was three years ago but right now we can't do it. We badly needed help and got it.

And of course some players don't pan out. Who'd disagree with that? I don't know if he'll pan out or not but to just write him off right now doesn't make any sense to me. He has all the tools. Big, speedy, good hands and right shot. Nashville took a gamble and it may pay off well for them. This is the beginning of the story for him, not the end. I just think people are far to quick to write people off and young blueliners take time.

If it's not an excuse, i don't know what it is.

You always seem to come up with new ways to ''explain'' why he's struggling. You dug deep on that latest one.

You can't always blame teams, teammates, circumstances or whatever for him not playing just because you want to be proven right about him.

The sole purpose of the NHL and the Montreal Canadiens is not so they can help Justin Barron find his game.
No team can wait for him to find his game, unless they're tanking.
If he's constantly costing games, he doesn't deserve to play.
There are other players who want to get their shot too.

He doesn't have all the tools. He has some. He's got good speed once he gets going, he can make a good pass when he has the time and he has a good shot.
He doesn't seem to have the toolbox.
He's too slow to react, physically and mentally. He can't keep up with the speed of play. He's always a step behind in his zone and can't handle puck pressure.
He just seems weak mentally.
That's just who he is. It's not a matter of time or development.

But he's gone now. Finally. We can move on.

 

[ryan callahan]

Why is this thread still active when we just beat three top 10 NHL teams on away ice on a 3/4? Because of Justin Barron? Come on.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

If it's not an excuse, i don't know what it is.

You always seem to come up with new ways to ''explain'' why he's struggling. You dug deep on that latest one.

He's a developing player. Some players develop faster than others. I'm not sure why you don't get this.

I'm not making excuses. He hasn't played well. Nobody is going to dispute this. Moreover, nobody is going to dispute the fact that he could wind up being a bust. Being a young blueliner isn't an 'excuse' it's just where he's at in his career today.

You can't always blame teams, teammates, circumstances or whatever for him not playing just because you want to be proven right about him.

It's not about blame.

Some environments are better for development than others. If for example you're a young forward and you get to play with superstar forwards, you're going to have a better shot at succeeding. Look at Connor Bedard, he's the best prospect in the world and he hasn't produced the way people expected and that's partially due to the fact that his team is so horrible. Is someone to 'blame' for this? No. It's not about blame or excuses or whatever, it's simply the reality of the situation.

And "proven right" about what? I don't know what this guy's going to be.

The sole purpose of the NHL and the Montreal Canadiens is not so they can help Justin Barron find his game.
No team can wait for him to find his game, unless they're tanking.
If he's constantly costing games, he doesn't deserve to play.
There are other players who want to get their shot too.

And?

I'm not sure why you're saying this when I've already said I'm in favour of the trade. We can't wait for this guy to find his game. We needed a vet RD and it was a smart trade on our part to make it.

That doesn't mean that Barron's a bust and will never amount to anything though.

He doesn't have all the tools. He has some. He's got good speed once he gets going, he can make a good pass when he has the time and he has a good shot.
He doesn't seem to have the toolbox.

Uh... yeah, he's got all the tools. Physiscally he's everything you want in a young blueline prospect. The tools aren't in question.

The toolbox is. Everybody knows this btw. Beaulieu had great tools too and he never really panned out. Part of that was development and being rushed and part of it was him not having his head together. But you don't know until down the road if a guy's going to pan out or not.

He's too slow to react, physically and mentally. He can't keep up with the speed of play. He's always a step behind in his zone and can't handle puck pressure.
He just seems weak mentally.
That's just who he is. It's not a matter of time or development.

Being slow to react can be the result of a player not having a toolbox - or it can be the result of lack of experience or confidence. What he is now isn't necessarily what he'll be in five years. It may be the case but I wouldn't just write him off now.

Brett Kulak for example was a blueliner I absolutely hated while he was here. Mistake after mistake. We dealt him away (huge win for us but that's another story) and he actually turned into a half decent blueliner. He needed time and ice. He got both in Edmonton and is carving out a pretty decent career for himself.

So again, I'm not going to sit here and say that Barron is done and neither should you. Neither of us knows what he's going to be. What I will say is that I'm happy with the trade and I wish Barron the best. But after this season, I doubt I'll be thinking about him much at all.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Why is this thread still active when we just beat three top 10 NHL teams on away ice on a 3/4? Because of Justin Barron? Come on.

The same reason both the playoff thread and the tank thread are open... this team is bipolar and we won't know where we're going for at least a little while now.

The good news is that we're trending in the right direction. Imagine if we'd started strong and then slumped...

 

[Deus ex machina]

Barron was in a tough spot. It would’ve been better for him to have had Carrier here to help him develop. There was nobody in the right side you could really develop and learn from. Ghule’s young himself and playing on the wrong side. Savard is a journeyman… and they had to make overtime for guys like Struble. Not a good place to develop your game.

So yeah, you’re right he was stalling out. We needed help back there and got it. But Barron may yet turn into something. We weren’t in a position to wait for him to find his game and badly needed help. But I don’t think that means that Baron won’t work out for Nashville.

Just a little reminder here because it seems like you forgot what you originally wrote.
I had to go back and re-read again just to make sure i wasn't going crazy...lol

It really really looks like you're making excuses for him here. Or reasons. Or whatever you want to call it.
If you won't even acknowledge that, it makes it difficult to have an honest conversation.

Carrier wasn't there to help him develop? Seriously?

And for the record, i never mentioned the trade. It's besides the point.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Just a little reminder here because it seems like you forgot what you originally wrote.
I had to go back and re-read again just to make sure i wasn't going crazy...lol

It really really looks like you're making excuses for him here. Or reasons. Or whatever you want to call it.
If you won't even acknowledge that, it makes it difficult to have an honest conversation.

Do you not understand that developing players are generally not as good as what they will be down the road? Do you not get that some environments are better to develop in than others?

This isn't an excuse. It doesn't require anyone to be blamed. It's simply where he's at in his career and this environment wasn't the best place for him to develop. He is what he is right now. But that doesn't mean that's what he'll always be. I don't know how else to explain this to you.

And again, as far as me being 'proven right' on anything with this guy, I don't know what he's going to be anymore than anyone here. I just know that writing off players at age 23 doesn't make sense. We'll see where he's at in a few years. Maybe he carves out a decent career or maybe not. Either way, I wish him well and am just fine with this trade no matter how he turns out.

I'm going to leave it as it is here. If you want the last word you're welcome to it.

 

[Deus ex machina]

Do you not understand that developing players are generally not as good as what they will be down the road?

What? That's not what we're arguing about.

Do you not get that some environments are better to develop in than others?

Sure, but do you really believe that he didn't get a fair shot in MTL?
A team that gave him all the chances in the world and plenty of ice time to establish himself in the NHL, to make the trade that brought him here look good?
Be honest.

This isn't an excuse. It doesn't require anyone to be blamed. It's simply where he's at in his career and this environment wasn't the best place for him to develop. He is what he is right now. But that doesn't mean that's what he'll always be. I don't know how else to explain this to you.

And again, as far as me being 'proven right' on anything with this guy, I don't know what he's going to be anymore than anyone here. I just know that writing off players at age 23 doesn't make sense. We'll see where he's at in a few years. Maybe he carves out a decent career or maybe not. Either way, I wish him well and am just fine with this trade no matter how he turns out.

I'm going to leave it as it is here. If you want the last word you're welcome to it.

You just contradicted yourself in just 3 first phrases.
You're blaming the environment instead of the player for his failure to improve and you say you're not giving him an excuse when that's exactly what you're doing.
You make absolutely no sense.

I'll leave it at that before you ''explain'' that the sky is green and i go crazy.

 

[JianYang]

Because when we lose someone MUST be blamed.

And to be fair it was a terrible start. Coaches are going to get heat when that happens. For whatever reason this team didn’t seem prepared to start the year. I don’t know if it was a systems issue, injuries, conditioning… or a combination of a lot of things. But when you’re that bad, the coach (fairly or not) is going to take some heat.

It's probably not just one thing but it's also no coincidence to me that they put a streak together once they got fully healthy

Depth is an issue I was concerned about heading into the season, and you can't expect to be fully healthy like this for the long run.

Right now, you got a good portion of guys in the right chair but there's alot of potential injury scenarios that can bury this team. But even while they are fully healthy, it's not like they still don't have some holes.

An injury to Suzuki would be a disaster.

An injury to any one of the regular dmen would be felt, and obviously really felt on the upper end.

An injury to montembeault would be very concerning putting all the weight on a raw rookie.

So... things are good while they are healthy but they are like a house built out of cards. Inevitably, this thread will heat up when that house crumbles... likewise the tank thread and what's up with slafkovsky etc...

 

[Kennerback]

I'm not excusing anything. He's a 23 year old player... he doesn't need an excuse.

He's either going to develop or he's not. Given our circumstances, we can't wait for him to find his game. Totally different story if this was three years ago but right now we can't do it. We badly needed help and got it.

And of course some players don't pan out. Who'd disagree with that? I don't know if he'll pan out or not but to just write him off right now doesn't make any sense to me. He has all the tools. Big, speedy, good hands and right shot. Nashville took a gamble and it may pay off well for them. This is the beginning of the story for him, not the end. I just think people are far to quick to write people off and young blueliners take time.

A certain number of players are accident-prone, they regularly bungle the puck and make costly unforced errors. I don’t know how many NHL D’s have this flaw. I’d venture less than 10% because it’s a really bad flaw to have at this level. Some are very good otherwise by compensating with other skills. Two of these are Brisebois and Matheson. For example, Matheson’s skating is truly exceptional…

While development helps other aspects of the game, I don’t know that blundering can improve much (it never did with Brisebois or Matheson), and seeing if Barron can make headway on this will be interesting. Otherwise, can Barron leverage his other skills to compensate for this flaw?

 

[Jack Spider]

I spilled my beer on my computer reading this thread. Ithink I broke it. Edit: i feel good - james brown

 

[Jack Spider]

I spilled my beer on my computer reading this thread. Ithink I broke it. Edit: i feel good - james brown

it shut down 3 times on a 10 minute cycle. wet electronics. f it. powered it a 4th time. been running stable since.

 

[Jack Spider]

It’s dying. It shuts down after boot now. There is strong resistance in there. I think it will work in a week. Welp

 

[Archijerej]

I’m not a fan of the thread title either. Becomes an argument as to whether coaching is a problem (dichotomy is not interesting for fun convo) instead of a tread about what we think of coaching. Might rename to “what do you think of coaching’ or just “coaching” because a forum implies sharing opinions anyway.

Permanent "Roster", "Coaching" and "The State of the rebuild" threads would make this forum easier to read in my opinion.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I think the other thread had it's time (coaching is a serious problem ). Lets talk about the up/downs of MSL in a fresh thread where we are not insulting him by the title. I think we should be ashamed to have thread title like that on our Habs board.

Who still thinks MSL can't adapt well to the challenges that come from being a rookie coach on a rebuilding team? What I see is a coach and team of players that is very resilient. Maybe we need someone behind the bench with lots of experience for MSL to lean on at times. That part I agree with but I myself loves that MSL is our coach. He's the type to always want to improve and he never backs down.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's probably not just one thing but it's also no coincidence to me that they put a streak together once they got fully healthy

Depth is an issue I was concerned about heading into the season, and you can't expect to be fully healthy like this for the long run.

Right now, you got a good portion of guys in the right chair but there's alot of potential injury scenarios that can bury this team. But even while they are fully healthy, it's not like they still don't have some holes.

An injury to Suzuki would be a disaster.

An injury to any one of the regular dmen would be felt, and obviously really felt on the upper end.

An injury to montembeault would be very concerning putting all the weight on a raw rookie.

So... things are good while they are healthy but they are like a house built out of cards. Inevitably, this thread will heat up when that house crumbles... likewise the tank thread and what's up with slafkovsky etc...

Suzuki and Montembault are two guys we can’t afford to lose right now. With Dach just starting to find his game he’s nowhere ready to assume the number one. Aprart from those two we could survive anyone else getting hurt - though it wouldn’t be fun.

I think the addition of Carrière can’t be understated. We badly needed help back there on the right side. Adding him was a huge improvement. Yes, we were already getting betterbefore he got here but he gives us stability that we didn’t have.