The Martin St Louis Thread

[Lafleurs Guy]

I remember the dinosaur coaches with rookies. 4th line , make a mistake sit on the bench. Thank god those days are done.

This is why I’ve really defended MSL. For all the stuff you can criticize him for, at least he doesn’t get in the way. He’s a good development coach and that’s what we need now.

 

[Kennerback]

The thread was made after game three…

This is the thing you don’t seem to understand, rebuilding takes time and there will be misteps along the way. That doesn’t mean you fire/replace/trade people right away. You have to give it some time, esp when you’re dealing with things like injuries.

It is completely disengenous to start screaming for a winning club when it’s in year three of a rebuild and most of its picks aren’t even with the team yet. It’s going to take time. We’re going to see inconsistent play for most of the year. Unfortunately for us, a lot of the bad play started at the beginning of the year. At least we’ve partially made up for it now. But this isn’t going to last either. We’re not that good a team for it to last.

Demidov and Beck next year. Maybe Roy and Mailloux. Then RB, Fowler and Hage after that. There’s a ton of talent coming and we’ve already got a good foundation.

But no, we’re not there yet.

My expectations are absolutely that they make the playoffs next season. I’m sure I’m not the only one. The pressure on the team will be cranked up a notch.

 

[OldCraig71]

The reason for our resurgence is the Carrier acquisition and our improved play at center. When a team's centers play well and distribute the puck, it makes everyone look better. We are scoring more goals because of it, and defensively, there is less pressure inside our blueline.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

My expectations are absolutely that they make the playoffs next season. I’m sure I’m not the only one. The pressure on the team will be cranked up a notch.

I thought we had a slight shot at it this year. That’s why the start was so disappointing.

 

[Sorinth]

The criticism is not universal or general, especially not from me. I’ve been a big time backer of MSL. Taking into account how we ended last season, this season’s stinky dog poo start (and all the players underperforming) was bad and it reflected poorly on MSL.

I don’t understand why it is such a problem to admit and move on.

I don't think anyone has a problem admitting that we played bad to start the year or that MSL has some level of responsibility. It's the conclusion people draw from that where the disagreement occurs.

For example, a common complaint was that MSL's lack of experience is/was an issue and a major reason for the poor start. That's something I personally disagree with, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to deny that we had a poor start, it's just I don't think an experienced head coach would have been able to make a difference just like all the experience behind Buffalo and the NYR didn't prevent their struggles/collapse.

 

[dcyhabs]

My expectations are absolutely that they make the playoffs next season. I’m sure I’m not the only one. The pressure on the team will be cranked up a notch.

There is stuff the team can control and stuff they can't. It will be up to the habs to make necessary changes without panic moves. I have hopes for next year, but I'd be happy for a slump this year because I think they need another top pick before they compete, and, yes, they have to compete sometime.

 

[morhilane]

Power play effecxtieness is very slightly lower now wth Hutson as QB than earlier with Matheson.

That's because wave 2 isn't producing since the switch, while they did when Hutson was on it. Also, I think the team is getting less PP which means not scoring impact the % more.

November 18th is the current season split (18 games both side).

Pre Nov 18th:
- Matheson on the ice for 8 power play goals
- Hutson on the ice for 6 power play goals.

Post Nov 18th:
- Hutson on the ice for 10 power play goals
- Matheson on the ice for 1 power play goal.

 

[ReHabs]

I don't think anyone has a problem admitting that we played bad to start the year or that MSL has some level of responsibility. It's the conclusion people draw from that where the disagreement occurs.

Take it up with our friend HabbyGuy.

For example, a common complaint was that MSL's lack of experience is/was an issue and a major reason for the poor start. That's something I personally disagree with, but it doesn't mean I'm trying to deny that we had a poor start, it's just I don't think an experienced head coach would have been able to make a difference just like all the experience behind Buffalo and the NYR didn't prevent their struggles/collapse.

I think the experience argument is a reductive one too but so many things didn’t work at the same time. A bunch of players worse than last year/worse than expected, defensive game awful, tons of breakdowns in the D zone, can’t sustain o zone pressure, etc.

No need to rehash it. Happy to move on in peace. When things are good, we should say good things. When they’re bad, we should feel free to say they’re bad. The grandstanding after every short period of success is nothing more than score-settling and it’s plainly evident it doesn’t serve any purpose.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Take it up with our friend HabbyGuy.


I think the experience argument is a reductive one too but so many things didn’t work at the same time. A bunch of players worse than last year/worse than expected, defensive game awful, tons of breakdowns in the D zone, can’t sustain o zone pressure, etc.

No need to rehash it. Happy to move on in peace. When things are good, we should say good things. When they’re bad, we should feel free to say they’re bad. The grandstanding after every short period of success is nothing more than score-settling and it’s plainly evident it doesn’t serve any purpose.

What's ths difference between grandstanding and saying good things, other than who is saying them?

 

[ReHabs]

What's ths difference between grandstanding and szying good things, other than who is saying them?

It’s pretty clear, it’s the subtext of the statement.

“Dach scored two, where are the haters now? Hmm?”
vs
“Dach got the monkey off his back, thank God he’s been rewarded for his efforts”

One completely disregards the context of the criticism Dach was receiving (earning), and thus is grandstanding. The same applies the other way, when commentators wait until a player has a bad game and then they go off on the player and his potential etc.

I dunno man, I’m over it. Are we meant to pretend that the Habs didn’t have a dogshit start to this season? Really?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The reason for our resurgence is the Carrier acquisition and our improved play at center. When a team's centers play well and distribute the puck, it makes everyone look better. We are scoring more goals because of it, and defensively, there is less pressure inside our blueline.

Carrière was desperately needed. But we’ve know that for a while.

 

[OldCraig71]

Carrière was desperately needed. But we’ve know that for a while.

Yes and production from the second line as well.

 

[Kennerback]

I thought we had a slight shot at it this year. That’s why the start was so disappointing.

This season I expected a step forward but I didn’t think playoffs was realistic. I think they’ve improved. For better or for worse, enough to get us out of contention for a very high draft pick based on final standings alone. But with Demidov, our core being a year older and either RB or Mailloux helping, MSL and management will get even less leeway next season. Patience will wear thin quickly.

 

[HabbyGuy]

Take it up with our friend HabbyGuy.

I've never denied we struggled out of the gate, everyone knows how bad it was. The disagreement has always been why we were struggling, it was my assertion it wasn't the coaching but rather the circumstances of which this rebuilding roster was dealing with. I was opposing the idea that coaching was a serious problem and that firing Marty was the proper course of action.

This is not grandstanding. It's a reminder that stupid hot takes and knee jerk reactions are never a good idea.

 

[Frankenheimer]

The thread was made after game three…

This is the thing you don’t seem to understand, rebuilding takes time and there will be misteps along the way. That doesn’t mean you fire/replace/trade people right away. You have to give it some time, esp when you’re dealing with things like injuries.

It is completely disengenous to start screaming for a winning club when it’s in year three of a rebuild and most of its picks aren’t even with the team yet. It’s going to take time. We’re going to see inconsistent play for most of the year. Unfortunately for us, a lot of the bad play started at the beginning of the year. At least we’ve partially made up for it now. But this isn’t going to last either. We’re not that good a team for it to last.

Demidov and Beck next year. Maybe Roy and Mailloux. Then RB, Fowler and Hage after that. There’s a ton of talent coming and we’ve already got a good foundation.

But no, we’re not there yet.

Why does this have to be constantly repeated when its quite obvious? Its verging on trolling.

Until the next two game losing streak.

Two games lol. How about one bad period.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This season I expected a step forward but I didn’t think playoffs was realistic. I think they’ve improved. For better or for worse, enough to get us out of contention for a very high draft pick based on final standings alone. But with Demidov, our core being a year older and either RB or Mailloux helping, MSL and management will get even less leeway next season. Patience will wear thin quickly.

I expected 85 points. We got off to such a disastrous start that even that modest goal looked impossible.

Like you said, what matters is we see improvement. Thankfully we’ve seen it since mid November. Carrière and Laine’s arrivals have added momentum. But I don’t think we should lose sight of the fact that this is just a hot streak. We were a better team than we showed at the start and we’re not as good as we’re showing now.

That’s fine, it’s more in line with what I expected. At least we’re not getting crushed every night the way we were. We never should’ve been that bad. Dach’s injury really threw us off and we really needed help on the back end.

 

[Sorinth]

Take it up with our friend HabbyGuy.


I think the experience argument is a reductive one too but so many things didn’t work at the same time. A bunch of players worse than last year/worse than expected, defensive game awful, tons of breakdowns in the D zone, can’t sustain o zone pressure, etc.

No need to rehash it. Happy to move on in peace. When things are good, we should say good things. When they’re bad, we should feel free to say they’re bad. The grandstanding after every short period of success is nothing more than score-settling and it’s plainly evident it doesn’t serve any purpose.

The score-settling happens on both sides and is basically a product of internet discussions. When things are bad and you say things are bad you probably won't get much push back, when things are bad and you come to the conclusion that "coaching is a serious problem" then you aren't just saying things are bad you are coming up with conclusions that's when you'll see push back because those conclusions are debateable. On top of which it's also just grandstanding based on a short period of play.

 

[Naslundforever]

But in the end, who really cares? It's just words afterall..

lol it took me 2 years of behavioural stress management therapy but I hear you.

I say msl busts because he’s not playing Dobes.

 

[ChesterNimitz]

This is not grandstanding. It's a reminder that stupid hot takes and knee jerk reactions are never a good idea.

Where was that reminder before my first marriage?

You would have thought I would have learned my lesson before my second marriage.

If my third marriage fails, I’ll just get a pet.

 

[ReHabs]

The score-settling happens on both sides and is basically a product of internet discussions. When things are bad and you say things are bad you probably won't get much push back, when things are bad and you come to the conclusion that "coaching is a serious problem" then you aren't just saying things are bad you are coming up with conclusions that's when you'll see push back because those conclusions are debateable. On top of which it's also just grandstanding based on a short period of play.

There shouldn’t be sides, camps, parties, etc. It’s nauseating.

We should welcome persuasive arguments and people who allow themselves to be persuaded.

 

[teamfirst]

It must be nice to have your cake and eat it too!

The point is, they had this turn around with Marty in tow, not the hypothetical new guy. Hence Marty derserves the credit new guy would have took.

Fair enough, but he should also deserve the criticism for the poor start of the season imo.

 

[Sorinth]

There shouldn’t be sides, camps, parties, etc. It’s nauseating.

We should welcome persuasive arguments and people who allow themselves to be persuaded.

If you made a persuasive argument then some people would change sides. But just saying things sucks and the coach is to blame wasn't a persuasive argument 5 games into the season when you started to complain about coaching. And based on the last 20ish games people were right to not be persuaded that coaching was a serious problem.

 

[nhlfan9191]

If you made a persuasive argument then some people would change sides. But just saying things sucks and the coach is to blame wasn't a persuasive argument 5 games into the season when you started to complain about coaching. And based on the last 20ish games people were right to not be persuaded that coaching was a serious problem.

I see this argument a lot and it’s always stunk. The team’s playing great right now but a good stretch doesn’t erase the half a season where his decisions sucked. I hope the team keeps continuing to role but MSL was getting challenged and rightfully so for how the team was performing for a long period of time this season.

 

[ReHabs]

If you made a persuasive argument then some people would change sides.

There needn’t be entrenched sides to begin with.

But just saying things sucks and the coach is to blame wasn't a persuasive argument 5 games into the season when you started to complain about coaching. And based on the last 20ish games people were right to not be persuaded that coaching was a serious problem.

Very static sort of thinking. You don’t think any conditions changed — nothing? The Habs were ranked dead last in multiple team stat categories for about a quarter of the season.

 

[tazsub3]

I see this argument a lot and it’s always stunk. The team’s playing great right now but a good stretch doesn’t erase the half a season where his decisions sucked. I hope the team keeps continuing to role but MSL was getting challenged and rightfully so for how the team was performing for a long period of time this season.

But players make the coach .
When a coach has to play Matheson so much that he starts making mistakes , can you blame him when the replacement is baron level ?
Now that he an nhl dmen instead and Matheson looks way better .