CHL/NCAA

[Otto]

Click to read more...

 

[Logosarejusttargets]

From my understanding of the plan - It's intended at least initially to be for those players who are US Citizens or played their developmental hockey pre-CHL in the US

 

[donjohnson]

An article about it...would be a really big deal for the Saginaw and Flint franchises...there's a lot of really good hockey players in the Detroit burbs who could potentially play relatively close to home and still have the NCAA in the back pocket if the pro career doesn't pan out.

Will NCAA coaches vote to allow CHL players to play U.S. college hockey?

www.sportsnet.ca

 

[OMG67]

I think it would be more likely to affect the pool of talent at the Overage Slot. I could see players leave earlier and go directly to NCAA for more competitive hockey.

If we are prioritizing hockey development, I think this would be an excellent option for the hockey players. It could also be really good for the CHL. Players could play CHL and move to the NCAA and get the education they wanted while also getting the benefit of playing in a higher level league leading up to their NCAA years. The NCAA loop would be uber competitive with some older players that are more mature.

I see a ton of benefits for all sides with a decision like this. I think it would grow the sport and you’d have way less players playing pro hockey too early. NHL teams would hold the player rights longer if they go to the NCAA. With the exception of it hurting the quality of the Overage class, I think it is probably for the best for the payers themselves.

Of course, it would hurt the CIS programs but those programs are mostly recreational anyway. It is not like those guys are coming out of CIS en Masse and playing meaningful pro hockey after. It is a means for them to play hockey while getting an education.

 

[EvenSteven]

I don’t know. Say I’m a player with pro ambitions, so I go the OHL route at 16. Do these new rules mean that if I’m done high school, can I jump to the NCAA right after high school to begin my studies? Especially if I’m not NHL drafted?

If so, that affects the 19 year old group as well. If we have a percentage of our 19 year olds jumping to the NCAA, along with a percentage of OA’s, the CHL could become a younger league.

 

[OMG67]

I don’t know. Say I’m a player with pro ambitions, so I go the OHL route at 16. Do these new rules mean that if I’m done high school, can I jump to the NCAA right after high school to begin my studies? Especially if I’m not NHL drafted?

If so, that affects the 19 year old group as well. If we have a percentage of our 19 year olds jumping to the NCAA, along with a percentage of OA’s, the CHL could become a younger league.

The short answer is YES but the full ride scholarships in the NCAA are not endless. I could see a scenario where the CHL scholarships are used after their 3-4 years in the league and then they get partial scholarships at the NCAA to cover the additional costs.

 

[armchaircoaches]

From my understanding of the plan - It's intended at least initially to be for those players who are US Citizens or played their developmental hockey pre-CHL in the US

Well if it’s only for us citizens to use in won’t effect cis hockey at all

 

[Otto]

From my understanding of the plan - It's intended at least initially to be for those players who are US Citizens or played their developmental hockey pre-CHL in the US

That's not the indication I get from the posted article

 

[bcspragu]

I don’t know. Say I’m a player with pro ambitions, so I go the OHL route at 16. Do these new rules mean that if I’m done high school, can I jump to the NCAA right after high school to begin my studies? Especially if I’m not NHL drafted?

If so, that affects the 19 year old group as well. If we have a percentage of our 19 year olds jumping to the NCAA, along with a percentage of OA’s, the CHL could become a younger league.

From other posts on the subject, you’d either have to be released from your CHL contract or be an overage player before you’d transfer to the NCAA. In reality there isn’t a ton of ice time out there for young 18-19 year old ncaa players unless you’re a superstar. With the nil money they get at schools like Michigan I don’t blame them. I would imagine those players are still going the USDTP route anyway if they intend to play 1 or 2 years of college before pro. Although you might see a few that figure to jump directly to the nhl at 18 come to the Chl instead and have the ncaa as a back up because in reality they don’t figure to go the college anyway, thier parents just want it as an option. Jack Hughes would be an example here

 

[Kingpin794]

From other posts on the subject, you’d either have to be released from your CHL contract or be an overage player before you’d transfer to the NCAA. In reality there isn’t a ton of ice time out there for young 18-19 year old ncaa players unless you’re a superstar. With the nil money they get at schools like Michigan I don’t blame them. I would imagine those players are still going the USDTP route anyway if they intend to play 1 or 2 years of college before pro. Although you might see a few that figure to jump directly to the nhl at 18 come to the Chl instead and have the ncaa as a back up because in reality they don’t figure to go the college anyway, thier parents just want it as an option. Jack Hughes would be an example here

Yep this. A good chunk of “freshman” in the NCAA are 20 or won’t see major ice time til 21. Anyone who’s ducking out of the CHL early for NCAA likely isn’t headed to the big names like Michigan, ND, BC, BU etc. More likely land in places like Bowling Green, Miami, maybe Western. This isn’t going to cause your team’s first liner to depart. It’ll be your third and fourth liners going to mid tier schools knowing they need 3 more years to develop.

 

[EvenSteven]

From other posts on the subject, you’d either have to be released from your CHL contract or be an overage player before you’d transfer to the NCAA. In reality there isn’t a ton of ice time out there for young 18-19 year old ncaa players unless you’re a superstar. With the nil money they get at schools like Michigan I don’t blame them. I would imagine those players are still going the USDTP route anyway if they intend to play 1 or 2 years of college before pro. Although you might see a few that figure to jump directly to the nhl at 18 come to the Chl instead and have the ncaa as a back up because in reality they don’t figure to go the college anyway, thier parents just want it as an option. Jack Hughes would be an example here

Yep this. A good chunk of “freshman” in the NCAA are 20 or won’t see major ice time til 21. Anyone who’s ducking out of the CHL early for NCAA likely isn’t headed to the big names like Michigan, ND, BC, BU etc. More likely land in places like Bowling Green, Miami, maybe Western. This isn’t going to cause your team’s first liner to depart. It’ll be your third and fourth liners going to mid tier schools knowing they need 3 more years to develop.

So I guess what we’re talking about is a return to the way it was in the early 70’s.

Back in the day, when OHLers (OHA back then) completed their eligibility, they could play NCAA hockey afterwards - starting with their OA season.

Multiple players did this I suppose once they figured the likelihood of playing NHL hockey was a long shot or unable to get a pro contract.

As was said, likely we’d have multiple OA candidates choosing the NCAA over an OA season here if they get the opportunity. We’d become a little younger league as they’d likely expand the number of 16 year olds to compensate. (Maybe reduce the OA max per team from three to two then up the 16 year old max from four to five?)

 

[Logosarejusttargets]

Well if it’s only for us citizens to use in won’t effect cis hockey at all

There are several US born players in USPORTS who played OHL/QJMHL/WHL - the number isn't overwhelming but they do exist.

 

[OMG67]

So I guess what we’re talking about is a return to the way it was in the early 70’s.

Back in the day, when OHLers (OHA back then) completed their eligibility, they could play NCAA hockey afterwards - starting with their OA season.

Multiple players did this I suppose once they figured the likelihood of playing NHL hockey was a long shot or unable to get a pro contract.

As was said, likely we’d have multiple OA candidates choosing the NCAA over an OA season here if they get the opportunity. We’d become a little younger league as they’d likely expand the number of 16 year olds to compensate. (Maybe reduce the OA max per team from three to two then up the 16 year old max from four to five?)

It is hard to say. It depends on what the motivation is. The Canadian kids cannot go to NCAA schools with their scholarship and get all expenses paid. They can only get the equivalent value covered. Many of those players will not get full ride scholarships so if they are serious about school and want a four year degree, they will have to have completed four CHL seasons, use their scholarship and receive a partial scholarship from their NCAA school.

I could see a lot of players staying for their OA season, bag their 4th scholarship year and then go. The ones that come into the league at 16 would have their four years so maybe those kids will go but I still think many of them would lean towards an OA year and leave pro prospects open that extra year. Many don’t want to give up on their dream.

NCAA would have a lot of 20 and 21 year old freshmen! That would seriously raise the quality level of those programs. I wonder how that would affect the bigger schools. Is an 18 year old Hughes better than a 21 year old non-pro like Sop? It may be interesting to see how that affects the recruitment process even at the top schools. A partial scholarship for a player that is more likely to play four years like Sop or a one year full ride for a 17 year old that leaves after his first season.

I see a lot of variables that would need to be hashed out. Regardless, this is great for the players and if they are truly student athletes, this is a good thing for them. I really hope it happens.

 

[ohloutsider]

There are several US born players in USPORTS who played OHL/QJMHL/WHL - the number isn't overwhelming but they do exist.

Luke Boka comes to mind. Michigan kid who played with Windsor and then signed with Queens in Kingston . Not sure how long he played there though because I believe he is in the ECHL now?

 

[donjohnson]

Luke Boka comes to mind. Michigan kid who played with Windsor and then signed with Queens in Kingston . Not sure how long he played there though because I believe he is in the ECHL now?

Dalton Duhart (Grand Blanc, MI) is at Queen's Univ. and is doing really well 15g/24a in 26 games. I've heard through the rumor mill that he's close to getting signed by someone to likely go play in the ECHL which is a great success story.

 

[OMG67]

Dalton Duhart (Grand Blanc, MI) is at Queen's Univ. and is doing really well 15g/24a in 26 games. I've heard through the rumor mill that he's close to getting signed by someone to likely go play in the ECHL which is a great success story.

As long as the players graduate before signing crappy ECHL deals, I agree. The ones that leave after two years of school to go play for $800/wk should have their heads examined.

 

[bobber]

As long as the players graduate before signing crappy ECHL deals, I agree. The ones that leave after two years of school to go play for $800/wk should have their heads examined.

Isn't the ECHL like getting sent to the salt mines in Siberia where no one hears about you again? Fairly sure it's where hockey careers go to die.

 

[Kingpin794]

Isn't the ECHL like getting sent to the salt mines in Siberia where no one hears about you again? Fairly sure it's where hockey careers go to die.

Depends on where you are in your career or what kind of prospect you are. Wings sent Cossa to play in the ECHL last year and now he's handling himself in the AHL. But yeah most of the younger guys there are long shot prospects and the older guys couldn't cut it in the AHL.

 

[OMG67]

Isn't the ECHL like getting sent to the salt mines in Siberia where no one hears about you again? Fairly sure it's where hockey careers go to die.

Nothing “wrong” with the ECHL. If you are relying on that league to make a living and when that is done, you are done and are faced with very few prospects, yes, it is the end of the line. But, if you graduate from College and you go play a few years in the ECHL before starting what would be considered your “normal life,” then it can be great.

The challenge in the ECHL is if you sign directly with an ECHL team, the compensation is very poor. I believe most likely sign NHL minor league deals with AHL and ECHL compensation. That ain’t horrible. If they move up and play some AHL, at least they are getting a decent paycheque. But $800/wk on and ECHL deal is not that great.

 

[bobber]

Nothing “wrong” with the ECHL. If you are relying on that league to make a living and when that is done, you are done and are faced with very few prospects, yes, it is the end of the line. But, if you graduate from College and you go play a few years in the ECHL before starting what would be considered your “normal life,” then it can be great.

The challenge in the ECHL is if you sign directly with an ECHL team, the compensation is very poor. I believe most likely sign NHL minor league deals with AHL and ECHL compensation. That ain’t horrible. If they move up and play some AHL, at least they are getting a decent paycheque. But $800/wk on and ECHL deal is not that great.

Years back the AHL had a preseason camp here in KW at the Aud. Teams played some exhibition games and scrimmaged. Wendel Clarke was there helping run scrimmages. One issue noticeable was him continually telling at players they were going to slow making plays. Looked fast as hell to me. I think it's hard to put in perspective the difference in skill level between OHL , AHL and the NHL. Once in a while you look to see where former high end OHL players are playing presently and see them buried in the ECHL. In the OHL they made a huge impact and we look at them as potential NHL players. Most of the time it doesn't come to fruition.

 

[HolyRoller]

I think it would be more likely to affect the pool of talent at the Overage Slot. I could see players leave earlier and go directly to NCAA for more competitive hockey.

If we are prioritizing hockey development, I think this would be an excellent option for the hockey players. It could also be really good for the CHL. Players could play CHL and move to the NCAA and get the education they wanted while also getting the benefit of playing in a higher level league leading up to their NCAA years. The NCAA loop would be uber competitive with some older players that are more mature.

I see a ton of benefits for all sides with a decision like this. I think it would grow the sport and you’d have way less players playing pro hockey too early. NHL teams would hold the player rights longer if they go to the NCAA. With the exception of it hurting the quality of the Overage class, I think it is probably for the best for the payers themselves.

Of course, it would hurt the CIS programs but those programs are mostly recreational anyway. It is not like those guys are coming out of CIS en Masse and playing meaningful pro hockey after. It is a means for them to play hockey while getting an education.

CIS Recreational? When 60% graduate to pro every year?

It is hard to say. It depends on what the motivation is. The Canadian kids cannot go to NCAA schools with their scholarship and get all expenses paid. They can only get the equivalent value covered. Many of those players will not get full ride scholarships so if they are serious about school and want a four year degree, they will have to have completed four CHL seasons, use their scholarship and receive a partial scholarship from their NCAA school.

I could see a lot of players staying for their OA season, bag their 4th scholarship year and then go. The ones that come into the league at 16 would have their four years so maybe those kids will go but I still think many of them would lean towards an OA year and leave pro prospects open that extra year. Many don’t want to give up on their dream.

NCAA would have a lot of 20 and 21 year old freshmen! That would seriously raise the quality level of those programs. I wonder how that would affect the bigger schools. Is an 18 year old Hughes better than a 21 year old non-pro like Sop? It may be interesting to see how that affects the recruitment process even at the top schools. A partial scholarship for a player that is more likely to play four years like Sop or a one year full ride for a 17 year old that leaves after his first season.

I see a lot of variables that would need to be hashed out. Regardless, this is great for the players and if they are truly student athletes, this is a good thing for them. I really hope it happens.

90% of NCAA freshmen now are 20-21 yrs old...

 

[OMG67]

CIS Recreational? When 60% graduate to pro every year?

90% of NCAA freshmen now are 20-21 yrs old...

Yes. CIS is recreational. Although many turn pro, they are doing so only for a very brief period in lower pro leagues and more of the lower European leagues. How many turn pro and make a career out of pro hockey? Not many. I don’t consider three season in the ECHL followed by two years playing in the UK pro league as a career. It is professional but those types of contracts require a job in the offseason.

Regarding the 20-21 year old NCAA Freshmen, that may be true but the more highly sought after full ride scholarship players are not typically 20-21. Those are the guys that fuel the big programs. Since the topic is mostly regarding the impact on NCAA and CHL (by extension CIS), it would be better to stay focused on that as opposed to the more macro statistics. I am not entirely sure the macro level statistics would be affected at all by this rule change across the NCAA. At a micro level, especially some of the bigger programs, you may see some key studs at 18 not playing NCAA at all, while the same programs may benefit from more seasoned quality 20 and 21 year old CHL players.

It definitely will be interesting to see how it all plays out if the rule changes.

 

[HolyRoller]

Yes. CIS is recreational. Although many turn pro, they are doing so only for a very brief period in lower pro leagues and more of the lower European leagues. How many turn pro and make a career out of pro hockey? Not many. I don’t consider three season in the ECHL followed by two years playing in the UK pro league as a career. It is professional but those types of contracts require a job in the offseason.

Regarding the 20-21 year old NCAA Freshmen, that may be true but the more highly sought after full ride scholarship players are not typically 20-21. Those are the guys that fuel the big programs. Since the topic is mostly regarding the impact on NCAA and CHL (by extension CIS), it would be better to stay focused on that as opposed to the more macro statistics. I am not entirely sure the macro level statistics would be affected at all by this rule change across the NCAA. At a micro level, especially some of the bigger programs, you may see some key studs at 18 not playing NCAA at all, while the same programs may benefit from more seasoned quality 20 and 21 year old CHL players.

It definitely will be interesting to see how it all plays out if the rule changes.

60% of NCAA players do the exact same thing after graduation.

 

[OMG67]

60% of NCAA players do the exact same thing after graduation.

I never said they didn’t. What I said was NCAA hockey, if you are in a good program, is a higher level hockey and much more serious.

The players that go CIS are going to get their education and play some hockey. The guys that would go NCAA may be similar but the level of hockey is higher and the hype around it is much higher. There are only a handful of serious programs in Canada, mostly on the East Coast. Those programs don’t compare to the top programs in the NCAA.

I can see a significant draw for CHL players to go play NCAA when they are done.

 

[HolyRoller]

I never said they didn’t. What I said was NCAA hockey, if you are in a good program, is a higher level hockey and much more serious.

The players that go CIS are going to get their education and play some hockey. The guys that would go NCAA may be similar but the level of hockey is higher and the hype around it is much higher. There are only a handful of serious programs in Canada, mostly on the East Coast. Those programs don’t compare to the top programs in the NCAA.

I can see a significant draw for CHL players to go play NCAA when

It was "recreational hockey" that really caught my eye.