I'm pretty sure I read a Sharks fan on this board saying that Will Smith, Musty's teammate, alluded to Musty telling Smith that he wished he had gone the NTDP --> NCAA route. So I was being rhetorical because Musty appears to have said it. It's also uncalled for to say that a teenager is "not a very good kid" unless you have actual information beyond the vague public reports.
CHL can now play NCAA - change everything !
- Thread starter jtechkid
- Start date
Plante has landed in Portland 
Joel Plante has signed his WHL Scholarship & Development Agreement. Welcome to the Winterhawks Family!
MORE
</p>— Portland Winterhawks (@pdxwinterhawks) <a href="">December 13, 2024</a>
Has played in the BCHL this season and last. Anyone familiar with him?
Joel Plante has signed his WHL Scholarship & Development Agreement. Welcome to the Winterhawks Family!MORE
</p>— Portland Winterhawks (@pdxwinterhawks) <a href="">December 13, 2024</a>Has played in the BCHL this season and last. Anyone familiar with him?
NHL players on opening night roster from the 23-24 season
| OHL | USHL | WHL |
| 197 | 190 | 127 |
- Why is everyone acting like the OHL and the USHL aren't on equal terms with respect to talent?
- on average right? Lets not being statistically illiterate and point to a bad US year (like this one...)
- I know the OHL teams are better in an absolute sense, but that's because they still have elite 18/19 yo in their league. But in 5 years all those 18/19 year olds will be in the NCAA (along with a handful of 17 yo) and all 4 Tier 1 Jr leagues will be feeder leagues for the NCAA.
Bjorn Le
Hobocop
You say this as if its a fact when it is very much a hot take. There is practically zero chance this happens. NHL teams do not want this, and there is no groundswell for Canadian/European players to completely change up how they progress to the NHL.
im shocked they are not back now ? maybe transfer fees ? Croskery having bad year - like minus 12- had not look good . granted , chicago is worse defensive team in league - gives up most shots - prob around 35-38 so issue can be with the roster but not sure why those two are staying on really weak team .
Misa hasn't committed to any program (yet) and I'm pretty sure that Cam Robinson's reputation took a hit, especially after being called out by Colby Cohen. Don't be to sure though that no high end prospect will commit. I still will bet money that a few will. My argument all along has been that there will still be high end prospects that will choose to go the NCAA route but don't expect the NCAA to become the de facto route.
News to me. Look, I will tell you that there is a lot of tension within U.S.A. Hockey right now and there are some within certain sections that are calling for a review of the "program" but those voices have always existed and I don't expect any major changes to the way the NTDP operates in the near future.
The real problem right now is the USHL and keeping it a viable league. If the OHL does accept the bids from Youngstown and Muskegon (which will lead to Chicago and Green Bay joining the next year), the USHL will be crippled. That is not what USA Hockey wants and it is doing its best to prevent that. If USA Hockey gums up the process, causing the OHL to walk away, saying "well we would have loved to take you but USA Hockey is really digging in its heels on this so...", a firestorm will ignite within the ownership groups of the USHL consuming the league.
What needs to happen is that the OHL will work with USA Hockey to expand into markets that are not Muskegon and Youngstown while telling both those organizations that their bids to join were unsuccessful.
The USHL remains whole, the NTDP is secure within the USHL, and the OHL happily expands into American markets with the full support of USA Hockey. A win for everyone involved.
Yeah, one was expected to leave but an exorbitant transfer fee made sure he didn't....
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Elite 18/19 year old NHL prospects should NEVER be on the ice with 16/17 year olds. It's borderline gross negligence in terms of hockey development.
It will become even more so once the avalanche starts and all the top 18/19 year olds are in the NCAA. The BIG10/NCHC/HEA will become so dense with NHL prospects its wont even be comparable to Jr hockey.
P.S. the fact the NHL has to wait till 20 to get their hands on these assets is wild.
- It's criminal the CHL has made 18/19 elite NHL prospects wait till they're 20 to play pro hockey. All so some old guy who owns the Jr team can make $$$ of them and fill seats. I can't believe modern NHL owners allow this to happen.
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
If we do just NA players (since that's who most of us are arguing about) its
OHL-168
USHL-111 (Non NTDP)
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No U18 NTDP team would be an absolutely wild turn for MN HS hockey, with teams getting guys back for their senior year.
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
How much money do you think a junior hockey team makes vs how much money big time university athletic departments rake in?
It's irrelevant. There is no reason a 19 year old shouldn't be able to play pro hockey. The rule is for CHL owners, not for Canadian NHL prospects.
Bad take. NTDP counts... almost all of them go NCAA (which tells you they would've played in the USHL anyways). (honest to god... why would you say the NTDP doesn't count? lol It's always hilarious reading insecure Canadians try to say its doesn't count.)
Kingpin794 Once again the real question is why would an 18/19 year old 1st or 2nd round pick play against 16/17 year olds?
The best development path moving forward is the 4 tier 1 Jr leagues feeding into the 3 top conferences in the NCAA. I don't even see how this is a debate. In 5 years it will be the norm. It might take a year or 2 to get the ball rolling, but it will happen because the answer is obvious.
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WarriorofTime
Registered User
- Jul 3, 2010
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themelkman
Always Delivers
When the big hat drops the flood gates will open. Seems like Mckenna doesnt want to announce until the season is over
Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
-My question about CHL owners and University athletic departments is relevant. Your point was that rules are in place so that owners profit off of teenagers. This ignores the fact that the vast majority of CHL teams operate either near break even or at a loss. CHL owners by and large are not making a profit. Meanwhile you mention that the natural progression will see most players funneling into a few major conferences. Some of which have multi hundred million dollar athletic departments. Even smaller programs have departments that likely are in the low millions. Even with NIL now, the athletes are getting a minor fraction of what they produce from these universities. There is no ethical consumption under a captialist system and that extends into no ethical fandom. Labor will always be exploited in the current system. It's not something unique to the CHL. The rule may very well change so that CHL players can go to the AHL early. They still have to be good enough to play there. I'd welcome their chance to get to the pros sooner. At least they get to sign their contracts unlike the NCAA. Not very players rights of them to cut off a revenue stream and to make sure their labor force doesn't leave too quickly.
-I'm American, not Canadian. I don't include the NTDP with the USHL because they don't assemble their team or develop them in the same manner as the rest of the league. They are not representative of the USHL as development league. I do not care where they play. If they played in the OHL, I wouldn't include them in a count of OHL players either. They are their own entity in my book. They just happen to play in the USHL. If those players weren't on the NTDP, they would be spread out among the USHL, BCHL, OHL, WHL, Q, etc. But I'm not going to assume where they would go so they get their own count as I believe it more accurately reflects the reality of the situation.
-You paint this picture like every 16/17 year old in the CHL is a tim bits kid and every 18/19 year old is an NHL all star. Everyone there is a highly trained individual that is trying to make the NHL. There are 16/17 year old future stars that dangle 18/19 year olds and there are NHL 1st rounders ripping shots past 17 year old goalies. Its a system that has worked for decades. It's talented people playing against each other in an established age grouping. Most of the time players get more out of playing against there own age group. There are a small number of players that would benefit from playing against the next age bracket up and they WILL benefit from it, but there's a reason there aren't a ton of 18/19 year olds playing against 22/23/24 year olds right now.
-There is no "best development path". There are several valid paths. That's the only obvious part.
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If your argument is that those 18/19 year old prospects ought to be playing against the best competition available (gross negligence or whatever) then, ipso facto, those players ought to be playing in the AHL, correct? Unless your assertion is that the NCAA is actually on par or superior to the AHL; a ridiculous assertion that frankly ought to be laughed at by every poster on this board.
As @Kingpin794 has pointed out, there are some CHL players that probably should be playing a level up in the AHL. And, as @Corso has alluded to, the rule vis a vis the CHL is likely to be modified in the near future. So then what will your NCAA argument be?
Seemingly lost in all of this discussion is the development of the 16/17 year old player. You know, the pool of future, upcoming NHL draft picks. I think the NHL (and Pro hockey in general) greatly prefers the CHL experience where these players are playing against good/great/sometimes elite 18-20 year olds in the years prior to their draft. In no way would professional leagues want these players relegated to developing during this time in a lower level 16/17 year old heavy league.
Also, there are often parts of a prospect’s game (namely on the defensive side) that are easier to work on in the CHL, especially given the input and influence the NHL parent club would have with a CHL team during those post draft years that they simply would not have in the NCAA.
Personally, if there’s one thing I’m glad to see removed from this conversation between the CHL and NCAA that has been persistent over past decades, it’s the false assertion that the NCAA is somehow a universally superior academic route. CHL players get the costs of 1 year of schooling covered for each year they play in the league. Play 4 years, get 4 years covered. So, unless we’re talking an Ivy League School (and there are no scholarships here afaik) there is no academic advantage. A degree from UBC, UofT, Queens (Elon Musk went here for heavens sake), McGill, Dalhousie etc is as good or better than a degree from just about any D1 NCAA school. Academically speaking, Sascha Boisvert would have been better off playing in the Q for 4 years and then enrolling at McGill. His degree from McGill would be much more valuable in broader society than whatever he’s going to get from North Dakota.
Ultimately, once the AHL/CHL rules are adjusted, the only allure of the NCAA to CHL players will be lifestyle: lavish dorm rooms, lit frat parties, a higher calibre of hockey than they’d find in USports along with an equivalent academic outcome. We see this with the NCAA commitments thus far: all from players with little NHL upside who may consider lower level pro at some point down the road.
For the high end prospect, pampering and indulging one’s self for a year or two whilst playing only half the games, while perhaps attractive, I don’t think is particularly compelling when weighed against the end goal of making the NHL as soon as possible. The coming CHL/AHL hybrid route will be undeniably more effective. Furthermore, I certainly believe that any NHL parent club would be dissatisfied with a prospect’s decision to forgo this route given all of the developmental upside in terms of professional input and increased playing time when compared to the alternative.
Final point, if during the next CBA the NHL amends the ELC much more in favour of the player (greater signing bonuses, more $$ overall, better terms), well, that is obviously going to be a problem for NCAA recruitment. Even under the current ELC structure, of the 17 1st Rd picks from last June’s NHL draft presently playing in the CHL, 16 have signed their ELC.
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Kingpin794
Smart A** In A Jersey
From NHL website:
"The current plan is for the two sides to begin formal discussions on a new CBA in February. The current CBA expires in September 2026, but Bettman has said the hope is to have the new agreement finalized sometime in 2025, potentially before the Stanley Cup Final"
Expires September 2026, but they’re said to be talking and hoping to get an agreed upon framework in place well before that time.
The NCAA is a nonprofit and is comprised of universities. The "labor" you're referring to is ostensibly there as much to play sports as they are to get an education and socialization to prepare them for the rest of their lives. And the vast majority of Division I hockey prospects (at least beginning next year with the change in rules) are getting a full-ride to do that. This matters because most of the kids in both the CHL and the NCAA aren't going to play professional hockey for the rest of their lives. By leaving out this pretty significant context, you're equivocating the worker rights dynamic of the NCAA vs. CHL.
Hockeyville USA
Registered User
Evan Konyen (2004, OHL, Flint Firebirds) commits to RIT. The dual citizen has been a pretty solid OHLer, just didn't progress enough to get drafted during his 3 years draft eligible.
The lower tier NCAA teams will be able to get a lot more talent under the new rules, will make for a more exciting NCAA.
The lower tier NCAA teams will be able to get a lot more talent under the new rules, will make for a more exciting NCAA.
What a truly horrible post. USHL's entire spine is built on the success of the USNTDP.
Title IX and lack of facilities will always hamper expansion, but I think more NCAA schools will see this move and want to make a DI programme. I am not necessarily talking about Power Five schools, but schools like Stonehill, all the schools in DII, and Birmingham University will consider expansion to division one a lot more now.
