Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Carcillo and the Noise
- Thread starter Thirty One
- Start date
-
Xenforo Cloud will be upgrading us to version 2.3.5 on March 3rd at 12 AM GMT. This version has increased stability and fixes several bugs. We expect downtime for the duration of the update. The admin team will continue to work on existing issues, templates and upgrade all necessary available addons to minimize impact of this new version. Click Here for Updates
aufheben
#Norris4Fox
Yeah, what use could a player like Carcillo have been in a game where the team had the pulse of a popsicle? I know that's kind of besides your point, but..
Last edited:
Agreed, but Dorsett is the better player and is coming off an injury so couldn't be expected to be the "change of pulse" player he might be normally.
Actually surprised Dan C. has gone so long without being a problem player. The way other fan bases wrote about him, it sounded as if he would cost the Rangers within 5 games.
Other than getting away with breaking his stick to delay the game against Chicago, which he got away with, he has been very good for the team.
Actually surprised Dan C. has gone so long without being a problem player. The way other fan bases wrote about him, it sounded as if he would cost the Rangers within 5 games.
Other than getting away with breaking his stick to delay the game against Chicago, which he got away with, he has been very good for the team.
eco's bones
Registered User
At the moment I'd rather have Carcillo in the lineup but Dorsett is a more rounded player. Can actually kill penalties etc. Carcillo is bigger and stronger. They're both more than less willing if there's trouble. There's not really a great deal of difference between the two of them as players.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Wut.
And I don't think having Carcillo in the lineup improves the pulse of the top-6.
I am not a Dorsett fan. I believe hes a hard worker, an energetic player and probably very dedicated to his game and to the team. I also believe he has very little hockey skill even for a 4th line goon or "grinder". Sadly hes also very ineffective at that role. The role of the grinder should be to agitate wisely and motivate/inspire the team through fast play. I do not think Dorsett has that aroma and I think his hitting usually takes him out of a play and out of position and it usually calls for bad and unwarranted penalties.
I believe Carcillo is a better hockey player and I believe he is 10x better at that role. You can see it clearly throughout each game.
The idea to put Dorsett in for Carcillo was not the best decision. I think Dorsett should not play again for us. I heard that there were calls about him at the deadline and I would have rather wanted him out asap.
However, Dorsett didnt play bad last night and was at no fault of his or his line on why the overall team played ugly. Its not Dorsetts fault why Staal looks lost on the defense at times, why St. Louis was making blind passes and looked slow. Why Nash and his line looked defeated. And much more.
Dorsett had a better game last night.
Still sucked, but not his fault at all.
I blame the coach and the whole team for not being prepared.
I believe Carcillo is a better hockey player and I believe he is 10x better at that role. You can see it clearly throughout each game.
The idea to put Dorsett in for Carcillo was not the best decision. I think Dorsett should not play again for us. I heard that there were calls about him at the deadline and I would have rather wanted him out asap.
However, Dorsett didnt play bad last night and was at no fault of his or his line on why the overall team played ugly. Its not Dorsetts fault why Staal looks lost on the defense at times, why St. Louis was making blind passes and looked slow. Why Nash and his line looked defeated. And much more.
Dorsett had a better game last night.
Still sucked, but not his fault at all.
I blame the coach and the whole team for not being prepared.
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
TheTakedown
Puck is Life
- Jul 11, 2012
- 13,694
- 1,493
Don't confuse what he said originally.
Is not the same as:
Dorsett has more skill, beyond the shadow of a doubt.
Carcillo has the chemistry with the 4th line of Boyle and D. Moore.
That alone makes Carcillo better than Dorsett.
I'm a big fan of Dorsett, but unfortuantely it's looking like he's almost on his way out :'(
I cant buy an argument that a worse player is a better option because of chemistry.
Personally, I think they both stink. And I think their inclusions into the lineup have little bearing on the game....and when they do, its usually negative.
With the way this team plays, better to not stir the hornets nest of the opposition.
NoQuitInNewMexico
it's okay cause it's all just the way it should be
Dorse was fine yesterday, I noticed him a lot on the forecheck. He PKs, but Carcillo is basically making prospect money; depending on how close we come to kissing the cap ceiling the ~500k might make up the difference next year.
I remember Carcillo being a part of more positive shifts in the offensive zone and he hasn't had a stretch of play as bad as Dorsett's worst, so I like seeing him in the team. Carcillo also strikes me as the more "skilled" of the two, but since we only see these guys on their 20% offensive zone start line and the coaches see them in practice every day in a wider range of situations I'd be willing to defer to them.
I remember Carcillo being a part of more positive shifts in the offensive zone and he hasn't had a stretch of play as bad as Dorsett's worst, so I like seeing him in the team. Carcillo also strikes me as the more "skilled" of the two, but since we only see these guys on their 20% offensive zone start line and the coaches see them in practice every day in a wider range of situations I'd be willing to defer to them.
ponzu4u
Registered User
- Feb 27, 2013
- 525
- 269
"A straw man, also known in the UK as an Aunt Sally,[1][2] is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of the original topic of argument."
Maybe I missed it, but I'd love to see a few examples of anyone who actually said we lost the Carolina game because we played Dorsett over Carcillo....
What I did see was a lot of people questioning the need to break up a fourth line that was playing very effectively, while demonstrating arguably the best chemistry of any of our four lines.
On the other hand, all of this talk about Dorsett being "able" to PK, but no one ever follows up with anything about him being particularly skilled at it, or about him being one of the top PKers in the league. Without Dorsett, has the Rangers PK been desperate for bodies? Are the current PKers not getting the job done and the Rangers' PK stuck in the bottom half of the league and needing a change? Is icetime being thrown out of whack and players looking clearly fatigued from having to PK and thus spend more time on ice than normal? Where exactly does Dorsett rank in terms of the penalty killing players currently on the team? Are we losing games because our fourth line isn't getting the job done? Is our fourth line not scoring enough goals? What specific parts of the game does Dorsett bring that Carcillo lacks?
To me, those are all much more engaging questions if someone really wants to discuss the merits of breaking up the obvious chemistry of the fourth line to insert Dorsett.
Maybe I missed it, but I'd love to see a few examples of anyone who actually said we lost the Carolina game because we played Dorsett over Carcillo....
What I did see was a lot of people questioning the need to break up a fourth line that was playing very effectively, while demonstrating arguably the best chemistry of any of our four lines.
On the other hand, all of this talk about Dorsett being "able" to PK, but no one ever follows up with anything about him being particularly skilled at it, or about him being one of the top PKers in the league. Without Dorsett, has the Rangers PK been desperate for bodies? Are the current PKers not getting the job done and the Rangers' PK stuck in the bottom half of the league and needing a change? Is icetime being thrown out of whack and players looking clearly fatigued from having to PK and thus spend more time on ice than normal? Where exactly does Dorsett rank in terms of the penalty killing players currently on the team? Are we losing games because our fourth line isn't getting the job done? Is our fourth line not scoring enough goals? What specific parts of the game does Dorsett bring that Carcillo lacks?
To me, those are all much more engaging questions if someone really wants to discuss the merits of breaking up the obvious chemistry of the fourth line to insert Dorsett.
Why do you have such a vendetta against Carcillo?
It's a shame some people can't get over things that are in the past. The guy has been a good player for us and we got him for basically free.
He's been better then Dorsett and the fourth line has been extremely effective with him on it.
Name on the front people, name on the front.
It's a shame some people can't get over things that are in the past. The guy has been a good player for us and we got him for basically free.
He's been better then Dorsett and the fourth line has been extremely effective with him on it.
Name on the front people, name on the front.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Can you find where I said someone said that?
While we're on the topic of straw men....
Hockey is a team game, you can't look at this scenario as a 1 for 1 and say hey just play the better talent. Carcillo gets the game within the game. He knows his role better than Dorsett.
Guys like him have a tough job, and one of the biggest things they need to know is when to drop the gloves or agitate to wake up a team that might have had a off night. This is something that would never happen with Brandon Prust. He'd take on anybody to send a message to the boys that we're showing up tonight.
Energy players are there to provide energy. As to why Dorsett didn't step up when the team came out with a lethargic effort on Tuesday is something I don't know. It's his job to provide a spark for his team needs it and not act only when his Napoleonic complex kicks in. Carcillo for all that he is just simply as a better understanding of in-game scenarios over Dorsett.
Notice how many D-Zone draws that 4th line takes and pushes the puck up into the offensive zone when Carcillo is playing, as opposed to Dorsett.
The factor is that Carcillo has enough crazy in him to do something to the other team's star player if one of the Rangers is on the receiving end of a dirty hit that Dorsett will just take a beating for.
I haven't seen too many Rangers take headshots after the Carcillo deal, while that was a once a game occurrence prior to the deal. Hank hasn't been run in a while either.
These intangible factors may not mean much to some, but in the trenches, I'm sure it has an effect.
Guys like him have a tough job, and one of the biggest things they need to know is when to drop the gloves or agitate to wake up a team that might have had a off night. This is something that would never happen with Brandon Prust. He'd take on anybody to send a message to the boys that we're showing up tonight.
Energy players are there to provide energy. As to why Dorsett didn't step up when the team came out with a lethargic effort on Tuesday is something I don't know. It's his job to provide a spark for his team needs it and not act only when his Napoleonic complex kicks in. Carcillo for all that he is just simply as a better understanding of in-game scenarios over Dorsett.
Notice how many D-Zone draws that 4th line takes and pushes the puck up into the offensive zone when Carcillo is playing, as opposed to Dorsett.
The factor is that Carcillo has enough crazy in him to do something to the other team's star player if one of the Rangers is on the receiving end of a dirty hit that Dorsett will just take a beating for.
I haven't seen too many Rangers take headshots after the Carcillo deal, while that was a once a game occurrence prior to the deal. Hank hasn't been run in a while either.
These intangible factors may not mean much to some, but in the trenches, I'm sure it has an effect.
Last edited:
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
Is it that he has a vendetta against Carcillo, or a vendetta against people who complain about Dorsett being inserted in to the line-up and this insinuating it was a major factor in them losing?
As far as the bolded goes, can you point to anything other than the fact that the team has won more games with him in the line-up, that proves this claim?
Last edited:
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
I would like to see a list of head-shots before and after, otherwise I am going to assume you are just making this up because it seems like a good argument.
How is it the Carcillo noise unless someone made the noise?
I don't think either one of you came up with a SM. Some people did make those complaints and you addressed them so he was in error. Now you are claiming no one made those complaints? Which is it?
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
No, -31- pointed out people were upset Dorsett was put back in the line-up after the loss. He did not say people were claiming Dorsett was the direct cause of the loss, although it is certainly implied by their level of outrage because of him playing.
The point of the article was to show a lack of causation between Carcillo playing and the Rangers winning games, and therefore complaining about Dorsett playing over Carcillo is rather frivolous.
That does not say:
So yes it is a strawman to claim -31- said that, which the other poster did.
Thirty One
Safe is safe.
- Dec 28, 2003
- 28,981
- 24,357
Ail
Based and Rangerspilled.
That and claim that somehow when said player is in the line-up the team is magically better. Of course this is based on nothing tangible.
pld459666
Registered User
Wut.
And I don't think having Carcillo in the lineup improves the pulse of the top-6.
And I think that this is where I and some of the other MOAR TOFFNUSS crew somewhat disagree.
Guys like Carcillo (and to a much higher degree Prust) know how and when to take the tempature of the team and do something on the ice to change things.
A big hit or a well timed fight is infectious.
No, Richards, Stepan and Nash are not going out and dropping the gloves because a teammate did.
But, Hockey IS an emotional game and those emotions are affected by things done on the ice.
There's no way to quantify this.
All I can say is that I have played the game for over 30 years, have watched close to 4,000 games and have experienced the emotional shift on the bench and watched teams change after something happens on the ice.
The 4th line of Carcillo-Moore-Boyle was playing very well. No problem with trying Dorsett there, but he would have to make a real impression to justify breaking up what has been the best 4th line we have had in years. He did not distinguish himself.
