Speculation: Caps General Discussion (Coaching/FAs/Cap/Lines etc) -- 2018-19 We Are The Champions Edition - Pt. 4

[txpd]

OK why all the hatred for Trotz? And why did all of you guys want to run him out of town? Why do you guys refuse to give Trotz any credit for what he accomplished here? Why do you guys think its OK that the Caps neglected to mention Trotz or other players when raising the banner? Should I go on?

The Caps blew a 3-1 lead in the second round his first season and was stopped in the 2nd round with 2 President's teams. He bought a full share into the Caps choker history. The clause in his contract about winning the Cup is very likely the only thing that allowed him to work out that contract.

second, he gets credit. The Caps didn't win in spite of him.

Third, Trotz and Beagle were not there that night. Trotz will get a video and an ovation and maybe ring ceremony when the Islanders visit the first time and you know they will totally love on Beags with Vancouver comes.

Edit: What about the Boston game and giving up zero high danger scoring chances says run and gun? Wasn't the pp 4 for something?

Edit2: Wait. Don't answer.

 

[third man in]

I think Trotz is the reason we won. He turned a run and gun team into a defensively responsible team.
So far this year its looks like we are back to the run and gun style. I doubt this team will be as successful this year as it was under Trotz.
I predict that we dont crack 100 points this year and are a borderline playoff team. I have ca feeling the Islanders will be a better defensive team than us this year.
I dont understand the Trotz hatred here and the big push for change even though the team was winning.

We shut out Boston and bled goals against Pitt who we usually had high scoring games with even under Trotz. I really doubt TR is going to be changing the system to run and gun after our system worked so well in the playoffs.

 

[txpd]

We shut out Boston and bled goals against Pitt who we usually had high scoring games with even under Trotz. I really doubt TR is going to be changing the system to run and gun after our system worked so well in the playoffs.

Several players have in fact said that the team's system hasn't changed and so there the only adjustment to the new coach is the new voice

 

[third man in]

Several players have in fact said that the team's system hasn't changed and so there the only adjustment to the new coach is the new voice

That was my point, we're not changing systems. Against the pens there is so much talent sometimes the players abandon it a little and the games quickly get out of hand.

 

[twabby]

Also playing the second of a b2b in Pittsburgh for their home-opener isn't exactly an even matchup, and the Capitals still took it to OT.

Yeah you'd like them to tighten up but after winning a Cup I'm going to give them a pass if their defensive game isn't in tip-top shape for Game 2 of the regular season against a foe wanting revenge.

 

[Silky mitts]

If it was Reirden's decision to switch to a trap - and I assume it was because supposedly coaches were divided about it so it's 50/50 and he's still here, because DSP and Kempny were huge beneficiaries of the trap and seemed to leave a lot of money on the table to resign, and because it's more logical to make a system change to favor the coach in waiting than the lame duck after the team came out wildly undisciplined the 1st 2 games - and to a man the defensemen credit Reirden for their development, then I don't know why people insist on disrespecting Reirden by trying to deflect credit to people that aren't in the building and nitpicking their 1-0-1 start.

 

[HunterSThompson]

If it was Reirden's decision to switch to a trap - and I assume it was because supposedly coaches were divided about it so it's 50/50 and he's still here, because DSP and Kempny were huge beneficiaries of the trap and seemed to leave a lot of money on the table to resign, and because it's more logical to make a system change to favor the coach in waiting than the lame duck after the team came out wildly undisciplined the 1st 2 games - and to a man the defensemen credit Reirden for their development, then I don't know why people insist on disrespecting Reirden by trying to deflect credit to people that aren't in the building and nitpicking their 1-0-1 start.

The Caps have used the 1-1-3 or right wing lock (derived from left wing lock, but Barry tweaked it to keep from having to use Ovechkin that way) for all of trotz's tenure and he used it in Nashville, and though i havent seen any of the Islanders games, I guarantee he is using it there too.

https://www.monumentalsportsnetwork.com/videos/caps-red-line-pt-1-caps-jets-11-1-16

 

[Silky mitts]

The Caps have used the 1-1-3 or right wing lock (derived from left wing lock, but Barry tweaked it to keep from having to use Ovechkin that way) for all of trotz's tenure and he used it in Nashville, and though i havent seen any of the Islanders games, I guarantee he is using it there too.

https://www.monumentalsportsnetwork.com/videos/caps-red-line-pt-1-caps-jets-11-1-16

How did it look so different in the playoffs? Like on the Panarin goal no one stops puck and Orlov and JJ give him a lane, but on the Kuzy Pens winner there's a guy taking away the boards and the path to the net.

 

[kicksavedave]

I would think I am also the resident goon, but g00n is our actual goon. Part of being a good goon is acting innocent after committing our crimes.

My Resume



Ironic, Vaive showed how easy it is to defend oneself. Bail out, or fall backwards. No worse for wear at all, and got right back up. A modern day Vaive would have been taken off on a stretcher after taking that on the chin, and Holt would be suspended indefinitely #FreeWilly

Holt on Vaive a week later... love the huge RH twig on my goon dmen. It aids in the buffoonernistic endeavors. You may skate like the wind, but he IS going to get a piece of you.

"Four players on the bench and three on the ice...."


Sounds like my 11:30 PM Friday night pickup hockey.

 

[HunterSThompson]

How did it look so different in the playoffs? Like on the Panarin goal no one stops puck and Orlov and JJ give him a lane, but on the Kuzy Pens winner there's a guy taking away the boards and the path to the net.

Couple different scenarios IMO. Panarin was more of a broken play during a change. Orlov was on his off side, so his stick wasn't toward the board allowing Panarin to flank him. He also just played that poorly, but if you notice the Caps did have 3 guys back just like they did on the Kuznetsov goal.

Kuznetsov goal was on a regroup where the Caps were able to get into their correct positioning and play it better.

 

[txpd]

How did it look so different in the playoffs? Like on the Panarin goal no one stops puck and Orlov and JJ give him a lane, but on the Kuzy Pens winner there's a guy taking away the boards and the path to the net.

playing it correctly and with dedication every shift vs less than that. Simple

 

[Ridley Simon]

That doesnt answer why there was so much hatred for Trotz and why everyone here wanted him fired even though we were winning. Dont avoid the question.

Come on Maaco.....this is hyperbole.

Not everyone wanted him fired (I never did). Trotz was not known for "change". He had never gotten beyond the 2nd round, while fielding some terrific teams. There was good reason to want a new leader if the team faltered again. Lo and behold it all came together. As I have stated many MANY times, its arguable as to why. I'm sure both Trotz AND Reirden were substantially important to it happening. As was Korn, Forsythe, Lambert, etc....ALL.

But Trotz wanted more $$$, and he wanted Reirden gone. GMBM couldnt bring the coaching band back together, so what was the answer? Resign Trotz to a whopper deal (far richer than anything the team has ever done, before?) while firing Reirden, or thank him for his service and let him go?

Again, they werent going to be status quo. It wasnt happening. So they took this path. The players all seemed happy with it. I dont remember any real quotes/tweets about them being unhappy about the direction the team took.

You love old school. Trotz is old school. So it fits (but you still havent fully discussed Trotz love for Niskanen, which you do not share).

We are all allowed to have different beliefs here. The fact that you cant stand Niskanen, while someone like Trotz adored him, should ring that true for you. And its ok.

 

[Sam Spade]

Also playing the second of a b2b in Pittsburgh for their home-opener isn't exactly an even matchup, and the Capitals still took it to OT.

Oshie said it post-game, you take those three points and are happy.

I have this thing I have done since around 2011 were I never even consider the results of OT games beyond the points the Capitals get (or don't). Skews records and makes teams think they are better than they really are.

I also tend to disregard the second game of back-to-backs because they don't play those in the playoffs anyway.

Get points, make the playoffs, that is all.

 

[maacoshark]

Come on Maaco.....this is hyperbole.

Not everyone wanted him fired (I never did). Trotz was not known for "change". He had never gotten beyond the 2nd round, while fielding some terrific teams. There was good reason to want a new leader if the team faltered again. Lo and behold it all came together. As I have stated many MANY times, its arguable as to why. I'm sure both Trotz AND Reirden were substantially important to it happening. As was Korn, Forsythe, Lambert, etc....ALL.

But Trotz wanted more $$$, and he wanted Reirden gone. GMBM couldnt bring the coaching band back together, so what was the answer? Resign Trotz to a whopper deal (far richer than anything the team has ever done, before?) while firing Reirden, or thank him for his service and let him go?

Again, they werent going to be status quo. It wasnt happening. So they took this path. The players all seemed happy with it. I dont remember any real quotes/tweets about them being unhappy about the direction the team took.

You love old school. Trotz is old school. So it fits (but you still havent fully discussed Trotz love for Niskanen, which you do not share).

We are all allowed to have different beliefs here. The fact that you cant stand Niskanen, while someone like Trotz adored him, should ring that true for you. And its ok.

I like whatever is working. I dont believe in fixing something that isn't broken.
As for Niskanen. I dont know how many times I have to say it. I dont feel he is a top shutdown guy in the league. I didnt say he was bad. I said he was a top 60 dman. When we signed him we paid him like an elite dman which he never was. He actually was pretty decent in the system Trotz brought in. The entire dcore was. It is a system based on team responsibility. The last 2 seasons he hasn't looked near as good. And for some reason you guys refuse to see it. I just want to see Niskanen playing like a top defender.

 

[Ridley Simon]

I like whatever is working. I dont believe in fixing something that isn't broken.
As for Niskanen. I dont know how many times I have to say it. I dont feel he is a top shutdown guy in the league. I didnt say he was bad. I said he was a top 60 dman. When we signed him we paid him like an elite dman which he never was. He actually was pretty decent in the system Trotz brought in. The entire dcore was. It is a system based on team responsibility. The last 2 seasons he hasn't looked near as good. And for some reason you guys refuse to see it. I just want to see Niskanen playing like a top defender.

we all know that UFA contracts over pay the player for the first few years. Need to look at it mid term (like now) and see where it us. Niskanen is paid like a tough, 2 way, top 4 D-man. Thats what he is. He's got more offensive awareness and ability than a lot of D-men, so I wouldnt ever consider him "Shutdown"....thats not his game.

I think we all see what he is. I dont refuse to see it. I also dont assume he's going to be a top 20 player, as that was never his situation. Over the average of the contract, he's paid correctly. Was overpaid, is now paid well (if not a little underpaid), and will soon be very underpaid.

I simply give Niskanen more rope than you do. Thats just a matter of personal opinion. Just like you give Bowey more rope than I do. Again, a matter of opinion (and before you tell me that Bowey is young so he's growing and Niskanen is old so he's not....thats irrelevant to the amount of rope I give someone....as an example, Djoos gets same rope as Bowey, he just doesnt need it. Akin to Vrana vs Burakovsky)

 

[txpd]

Shutdown is more an assignment than a style. Niskanen and Orlov are assigned to check the opposing first line in almost every game. Over the 4years of Trotz the Caps were #1 in standings points in the east by 31pts over Pittsburgh and 26pts in the league over the Ducks.

During that period the Caps goals against ranked 4th in the league.

This would suggest that using 2 and 9 together as matchup against Crosby, Seguin, Kucherov, Tavares and other top offensive lines has been consistently successful

 

[StrikingDistance]

Kempny in tomorrow is good news.

Also, heard on the metro this morning:

"What is going on with Ovi this season? No goals this past week and has only scored 2 so far?"

 

[kicksavedave]

I like whatever is working. I dont believe in fixing something that isn't broken.
As for Niskanen. I dont know how many times I have to say it. I dont feel he is a top shutdown guy in the league. I didnt say he was bad. I said he was a top 60 dman. When we signed him we paid him like an elite dman which he never was. He actually was pretty decent in the system Trotz brought in. The entire dcore was. It is a system based on team responsibility. The last 2 seasons he hasn't looked near as good. And for some reason you guys refuse to see it. I just want to see Niskanen playing like a top defender.

It would probably be helpful to clarify exactly what you mean when you use various terms to describe what you expect out of Nisky? It sounds like you have expectations that he's a Pronger, Bourque, Blake, Chara (in their prime's) type of DMan. In today's comparisons, it sounds like you think he should be compared to Hedman or Doughty today. And becuase he's not those guys you call him "overrated". Problem is I don't see anyone else on here even remotely trying to put him in that "elite" category, so you're arguing a straw man here. You admit hes top 60, but claim he's not "elite", "top shutdown" or "top defender" so it would be helpful for you to pin down exactly where you think his ranking is defensively. I'd bet its not far off from what people here think too.

As Ridley accurately points out, Nisky was overypaid slightly upon signing, is paid properly now, and will be underpaid when his contract ends. This is how taking solid UFA's work, at all tiers. And as TX accurately points out, he's been on the top defensive pairing in DC for his entire tenure and the Caps D has been near the top of the league since then.

 

[Hivemind]

Niskanen should have received serious Norris consideration in 2017. Not the ultimate winner, but he probably should have been in the 5-10 range.

 

[kicksavedave]

Also if you like whatever is working, Nisky is working, per the stats and results TX posted. He plays top pair shutdown minutes vs the other teams top lines for four years running, and the Caps are 4th in total GA in that span. He's working fine.

 

[trick9]

If i did my math correctly, Kuznetsov has 35 goals and 59 assists in his last 82 games including the Playoffs. Yet people don't somehow think of him as an top-10 center in this league.

 

[maacoshark]

It would probably be helpful to clarify exactly what you mean when you use various terms to describe what you expect out of Nisky? It sounds like you have expectations that he's a Pronger, Bourque, Blake, Chara (in their prime's) type of DMan. In today's comparisons, it sounds like you think he should be compared to Hedman or Doughty today. And becuase he's not those guys you call him "overrated". Problem is I don't see anyone else on here even remotely trying to put him in that "elite" category, so you're arguing a straw man here. You admit hes top 60, but claim he's not "elite", "top shutdown" or "top defender" so it would be helpful for you to pin down exactly where you think his ranking is defensively. I'd bet its not far off from what people here think too.

As Ridley accurately points out, Nisky was overypaid slightly upon signing, is paid properly now, and will be underpaid when his contract ends. This is how taking solid UFA's work, at all tiers. And as TX accurately points out, he's been on the top defensive pairing in DC for his entire tenure and the Caps D has been near the top of the league since then.

To be honest I still think he overpaid because I think his game is declining.
Since a lot of people here consider him a shutdown man, thats how I expect him to play. I'd like to see him play like a Marc Edward Vlasic or maybe a Mattias Ekholm. He isn't close to either of those guys.

 

[um]

Even if Niskanen sucks this years he's still easily worth the contract. I'd say he's been underpaid ever year he's been here.

 

[um]

If i did my math correctly, Kuznetsov has 35 goals and 59 assists in his last 82 games including the Playoffs. Yet people don't somehow think of him as an top-10 center in this league.

well that is a highly random stat, just picking out a random stretch of 82 games.

I mean I agree that he should get more recognition and it's largely because he's on a team with not just Ovechkin but with Holtby, Backstrom and Carlson as well.

I think when it's all done he may end up being the 2nd best Cap ever (homerish I know), but give it time.

 

[twabby]

To be honest I still think he overpaid because I think his game is declining.
Since a lot of people here consider him a shutdown man, thats how I expect him to play. I'd like to see him play like a Marc Edward Vlasic or maybe a Mattias Ekholm. He isn't close to either of those guys.

I'd put Niskanen in the same conversation as those guys. You can nitpick and say they are slightly better than Niskanen but to say he isn't close to either of those guys is the definition of [Citation Needed].