Canucks News, Rumours, & Fantasy GM | Part 2

[bandwagonesque]

ooh i forgot a good one.

trading mdz to anaheim for a 7th then having anaheim flip him for a higher pick like a month later.

He was traded for a 7th and Luke Schenn.

 

[m9]

Not mention just about every season has players paid bonuses in the offseason and traded during the season. I don't think the league would care to differentiate. I'm sure if I dig around I can find some offseason trade post bonus but I can't be bothered.

Yeah this is what I thought about after as well, not exactly the same situation but close enough so that it's probably fine.

 

[CanucksMJL]

I think there’s a risk that is cap circumvention. Otherwise, teams could just pay a player’s salary in full (or substantial part) before dumping him on the Coyotes. Not sure why that would be different for a bonus.

I don't know if this is what you were getting at but the idea of cap circumvention at the bottom end had never crossed my mind in the same sense as putting a guy on LTIR until playoffs circumvents the high end.


Is taking on a contract with a cap hit that vastly exceeds the dollars owed a pathway for abuse for teams to be technically compliant without actually contributing financially? It sounds dumb when I say it because it's obviously true.

edit: I accidentally posted this while I was figuring out wtf I was trying to say so there will be more edits

 

[rypper]

He was traded for a 7th and Luke Schenn.

Luke Schenn who at the time had been waived and passed over by every team, who's career was nearly over until he put in the work with Eakins, Adam Oates etc.

I don't think he had a ton of value in that trade, just contract swaps.

 

[Vector]

Luke Schenn who at the time had been waived and passed over by every team, who's career was nearly over until he put in the work with Eakins, Adam Oates etc.

I don't think he had a ton of value in that trade, just contract swaps.

The Luke Schenn who was playing in San Diego and went on to play in Utica. At the time of the trade, Schenn was absolutely just a contract swap. That he managed to parlay 18 solid games next to Quinn Hughes into two Stanley Cups and then another one-way contract is remarkable.

 

[MS]

Luke Schenn who at the time had been waived and passed over by every team, who's career was nearly over until he put in the work with Eakins, Adam Oates etc.

I don't think he had a ton of value in that trade, just contract swaps.

Schenn at that point was a negative value cap dump who was immediately sent to Utica.

 

[0494]

Luke Schenn who at the time had been waived and passed over by every team, who's career was nearly over until he put in the work with Eakins, Adam Oates etc.

I don't think he had a ton of value in that trade, just contract swaps.

The Luke Schenn who was playing in San Diego and went on to play in Utica. At the time of the trade, Schenn was absolutely just a contract swap. That he managed to parlay 18 solid games next to Quinn Hughes into two Stanley Cups and then another one-way contract is remarkable.

Speaking of Schenn, he was an absolute menace in that Leafs/Sens game. His TOI has taken a big hit (as expected on a contender) so I'm hoping they can lure him back on the basis of more deployment.

 

[andora]

Speaking of Schenn, he was an absolute menace in that Leafs/Sens game. His TOI has taken a big hit (as expected on a contender) so I'm hoping they can lure him back on the basis of more deployment.

biggest crime right now is that he isn't playing - he should be playing 2 resting 1. he isn't getting the same reviews from some of the leaf fans but he isn't really being put in a position to succeed - he needs steady time

if they don't use him against tampa i will laugh

 

[0494]

biggest crime right now is that he isn't playing - he should be playing 2 resting 1. he isn't getting the same reviews from some of the leaf fans but he isn't really being put in a position to succeed - he needs steady time

if they don't use him against tampa i will laugh

I've got a feeling the people doubting him are simply stat watchers. Not only is he tailor made for playoff hockey, but he knows Tampa very well.

Either way, I wanna see him back in the blue and green.

 

[rypper]

If you have an athletic membership this is a good read:

'Coaches asked me: Are you going to retire?': How Luke Schenn saved his NHL career

A top-five pick at the 2008 draft, Luke Schenn was solid early on as a pro. But when his game stagnated, he had to resurrect his NHL career.

theathletic.com

 

[pitseleh]

I don't know if this is what you were getting at but the idea of cap circumvention at the bottom end had never crossed my mind in the same sense as putting a guy on LTIR until playoffs circumvents the high end.


Is taking on a contract with a cap hit that vastly exceeds the dollars owed a pathway for abuse for teams to be technically compliant without actually contributing financially? It sounds dumb when I say it because it's obviously true.

edit: I accidentally posted this while I was figuring out wtf I was trying to say so there will be more edits

I was thinking that it might be circumvention of the rule that you can’t send cash in a deal. By paying a player before they are owed then trading him, you’re effectively sending cash with him.

 

[CanucksMJL]

I was thinking that it might be circumvention of the rule that you can’t send cash in a deal. By paying a player before they are owed then trading him, you’re effectively sending cash with him.

Thank you. That makes sense. The implications of signing bonuses as cap circumvention seem like underexplored territory.

 

[krutovsdonut]

The Luke Schenn who was playing in San Diego and went on to play in Utica. At the time of the trade, Schenn was absolutely just a contract swap. That he managed to parlay 18 solid games next to Quinn Hughes into two Stanley Cups and then another one-way contract is remarkable.

if you mean schenn was just a contract back and the deal was for a 7th, i disagree.

schenn was a depth dman with a lot of nhl experience who had played himself off the roster. not sure how you discount him as value in the trade when that is exactly what del zotto was. it looks like a classic hockey trade with the 7th as a throw in acknowledging mdz as a slightly better player.

i also cannot think of a single benning trade where the principal asset coming back was a draft pick and the player was just a throw in. i think he preferred hockey trades and used draft picks to even out perceived value discrepencies on hockey trades.

 

[MS]

if you mean schenn was just a contract back and the deal was for a 7th, i disagree.

schenn was a depth dman with a lot of nhl experience who had played himself off the roster. not sure how you discount him as value in the trade when that is exactly what del zotto was. it looks like a classic hockey trade with the 7th as a throw in acknowledging mdz as a slightly better player.

i also cannot think of a single benning trade where the principal asset coming back was a draft pick and the player was just a throw in. i think he preferred hockey trades and used draft picks to even out perceived value discrepencies on hockey trades.

Schenn at that point was an AHL defender on a 1-way deal who was a negative value asset. Del Zotto was an actual NHL player.

 

[m9]

if you mean schenn was just a contract back and the deal was for a 7th, i disagree.

schenn was a depth dman with a lot of nhl experience who had played himself off the roster. not sure how you discount him as value in the trade when that is exactly what del zotto was. it looks like a classic hockey trade with the 7th as a throw in acknowledging mdz as a slightly better player.

i also cannot think of a single benning trade where the principal asset coming back was a draft pick and the player was just a throw in. i think he preferred hockey trades and used draft picks to even out perceived value discrepencies on hockey trades.

To be fair you posted this at the time of the trade:

this is just moving mdz out to make roster room . schenn is a contract back/ahl depth for us. canucks have been carrying 8 d all year. they are about to have all firwards healthy and would have to waive one. this kicks thatcan down the road and gives a fresh start to a guy who was not trusted by our coach.

 

[krutovsdonut]

Schenn at that point was an AHL defender on a 1-way deal who was a negative value asset. Del Zotto was an actual NHL player.

del zotto had been health scratched for weeks before the trade. they were both players out of the current plans of the coach of their team.

they were both negative value assets. in dollar terms, mdz was the bigger one. in doghouse terms, schenn had been there since early november vs early december for mdz.

you could actually argue that schenn was more valuable since he'd been waived.

To be fair you posted this at the time of the trade:

oh, well done. i definitely eat crow for that one.

 

[bandwagonesque]

Luke Schenn who at the time had been waived and passed over by every team, who's career was nearly over until he put in the work with Eakins, Adam Oates etc.

I don't think he had a ton of value in that trade, just contract swaps.

And the difference in value between the two picks -- 186th and 191st -- is basically too small to be measured. We're so close to letting go of the habit of suspending disbelief to dunk on Benning.

 

[kcunac]

Boston will be in a cap crunch and we are in a win now mode.

Rathbone, Woo, 2nd (+?) for Coyle, Carlo

Move Garland for a pick (hopefully a 2nd), buyout OEL, move Myers @ 50%, sign Gavrikov @5m, Schenn @1m.

Kuz - Petey - Beau
Mikheyev - Miller - Boeser
Hogs/Kravstov - Coyle - PodK
Joshua - Aman - PDG
Hogs/Kravstov, McDonough

Hughes - Carlo
Gavrikov - Hronek
Wolanin - Schenn
Juulsen/Brisbois/Johansson/Hirose, etc.

Demko
Silvos

23 man roster @ 80.7 in cap

 

[JT Milker]

And the difference in value between the two picks -- 186th and 191st -- is basically too small to be measured. We're so close to letting go of the habit of suspending disbelief to dunk on Benning.

6th > 7th + cap dump.

It’s ok to dunk on Benning for anything, at any time. Dude spent almost a decade ruining your favourite hockey team, defending him is basically Stockholm Syndrome.

 

[bandwagonesque]

6th > 7th + cap dump.

It’s ok to dunk on Benning for anything, at any time. Dude spent almost a decade ruining your favourite hockey team, defending him is basically Stockholm Syndrome.

Fine, as long as you realize it's a recreational activity that has nothing to do with hockey or hockey discussion.

 

[tradervik]

 

[tyhee]

I don't think we're on the same page here so I'll just leave this one be.

Maybe I"m misunderstanding what you're saying. It seemed to me that Vector was, except for not giving examples and instead depending on logic and the collective bargaining agreement, answering what you were saying.

Cap hit is charged during the season on a daily basis. It doesn't matter whether the contract was in salary, bonus, front loaded, back loaded or anything else. For example, if a two year contract pays a player $5 million the first season and $1 million the second, the cap hit in the second season is $3 million. If the player was traded between seasons the cap hit for the second season is still $3 million. The acquiring team gets that $3 million charge against their cap even though the disposing team paid most of the money.

It is the same if a player is paid during the season. The cap for the season is divided into the number of days in the season and the team that has the player on the roster for the day gets the daily cap hit, even if they aren't the ones paying the money.

What you were wondering makes perfect sense, but I think the answer is that the team he is on suffers the cap hit even if the money was paid previously by another team.

Sorry to say I don't remember examples of it happening, so to that extent I can't answer what you've written.

Did I too misunderstand what you were saying?

 

[m9]

Maybe I"m misunderstanding what you're saying. It seemed to me that Vector was, except for not giving examples and instead depending on logic and the collective bargaining agreement, answering what you were saying.

Cap hit is charged during the season on a daily basis. It doesn't matter whether the contract was in salary, bonus, front loaded, back loaded or anything else. For example, if a two year contract pays a player $5 million the first season and $1 million the second, the cap hit in the second season is $3 million. If the player was traded between seasons the cap hit for the second season is still $3 million. The acquiring team gets that $3 million charge against their cap even though the disposing team paid most of the money.

It is the same if a player is paid during the season. The cap for the season is divided into the number of days in the season and the team that has the player on the roster for the day gets the daily cap hit, even if they aren't the ones paying the money.

What you were wondering makes perfect sense, but I think the answer is that the team he is on suffers the cap hit even if the money was paid previously by another team.

Sorry to say I don't remember examples of it happening, so to that extent I can't answer what you've written.

Did I too misunderstand what you were saying?

His explanation was totally fine, I just didn't understand how he meant it. I do now. I didn't mean to be dismissive, apologies @Vector

I should have probably just deleted that post because by the time people answered I had already thought in my head "people give bonuses and trade guys all the time, who cares" and realized it was probably a dumb question.

 

[ziploc]

Interesting. Don't know anything about him, looks relatively big though, has had some fights, and is still only 21.

 

[joelCAMEL]

ooh i forgot a good one.

trading mdz to anaheim for a 7th then having anaheim flip him for a higher pick like a month later.

Micheal Del Zotto:
Vancouver got a 7th and Luke Schenn.
Anaheim got a 6th.

Doesn't seem that good to me.