Confirmed with Link: Canucks announce HC Rick Tocchet will Not Return (UPD May 13: Tocchet to coach Flyers)

[Hodgy]

I don’t think it was a case of “liking”. That’s different than having a belief that someone is the bigger problem. I like plenty of players I want nowhere near my team even in beer league.

I think that's semantics though. My point is, that if Miller was really the bigger problem, then why is management praising his constantly and criticizing Pettersson. Again, it doesn't square up.

I’m not really inventing anything…

You are in the sense that its all just rumours and speculation.

the logical thing to believe, IMO, is the guy moved is the one the room is least sad about seeing moved.

It isn't logical in that its inconsistent with what management has repeatedly said. Like I said, its more logical - on the face of it - that they moved Miller because he's six years older. To put it another way, if the ages were reversed, I'd expect them to have moved Pettersson.

And, well, I’ve heard some things from a reliable source that I can’t and won’t get into.

If you have insider information then I will certainly take the into account as you are a credible poster. But again, it may be hard to square up with what management has said.

 

[tantalum]

I think that's semantics though. My point is, that if Miller was really the bigger problem, then why is management praising his constantly and criticizing Pettersson. Again, it doesn't square up.


You are in the sense that its all just rumours and speculation.


It isn't logical in that its inconsistent with what management has repeatedly said. Like I said, its more logical - on the face of it - that they moved Miller because he's six years older. To put it another way, if the ages were reversed, I'd expect them to have moved Pettersson.


If you have insider information then I will certainly take the into account as you are a credible poster. But again, it may be hard to square up with what management has said.

I don't think it's that hard to square up. A management team can indeed really like a player and recognize that it just isn't working with that player. That's what I meant by it not being about "liking".

Alvin is also not a guy I see really burning bridges or talking crap about someone. He's not Burke or Torts. He's a quiet guy that I don't think intentionally wants to stir something up. Especially months after putting it to rest so to speak. In no way do I expect him to talk crap about Miller in a season ticket meeting even if he wanted to or had reason to.

 

[racerjoe]

Sure...I'm sure they had discussions but it doesn't always mean they are on the same page.

Do you think management would have offered him a contract if they were not on the same page...

 

[Hodgy]

I don't think it's that hard to square up. A management team can indeed really like a player and recognize that it just isn't working with that player. That's what I meant by it not being about "liking".

Alvin is also not a guy I see really burning bridges or talking crap about someone. He's not Burke or Torts. He's a quiet guy that I don't think intentionally wants to stir something up. Especially months after putting it to rest so to speak. In no way do I expect him to talk crap about Miller in a season ticket meeting even if he wanted to or had reason to.

No, but also didn't have to speak so openly glowing about Miller, and be so openly negative about Pettersson. That's the hard part to square up with Miller being a more of a problem than Pettersson (even if it is just for personality reasons and not something openly malicious).

 

[Canucker]

Do you think management would have offered him a contract if they were not on the same page...

I don't know...maybe their perception of things was different than his?

I think there is also the fact that several jobs became available that were probably more appealing to him than staying in Vancouver...he has a pretty long history with Philly and the opportunity to coach them may have been something he wanted and that chance isn't always available...this was probably the best opportunity for him to move to a job while he still has some juice from a Jack Adams win in him.

 

[racerjoe]

I don't know...maybe their perception of things was different than his?

I think there is also the fact that several jobs became available that were probably more appealing to him than staying in Vancouver...he has a pretty long history with Philly and the opportunity to coach them may have been something he wanted and that chance isn't always available...this was probably the best opportunity for him to move to a job while he still has some juice from a Jack Adams win in him.

More jobs being available doesn't change the fact he left... he didn't embrace the hard, he ran from it. He didn't meet pressure with pressure, he met pressure release...

 

[Canucker]

More jobs being available doesn't change the fact he left... he didn't embrace the hard, he ran from it. He didn't meet pressure with pressure, he met pressure release...

lol....why are you so stuck on that? Is he really running from a hard situation by leaving Vancouver for Philly, or Boston? Those teams finished in worse shape than the Canucks. Is the only place that's "hard" Vancouver? If you are holding him to "embracing the hard" does he have to stay here until it isn't hard anymore, then leave for whomever is in last place? I don't get it...its hard everywhere in the NHL, only one team wins the cup.

 

[racerjoe]

lol....why are you so stuck on that? Is he really running from a hard situation by leaving Vancouver for Philly, or Boston? Those teams finished in worse shape than the Canucks. Is the only place that's "hard" Vancouver? If you are holding him to "embracing the hard" does he have to stay here until it isn't hard anymore, then leave for whomever is in last place? I don't get it...its hard everywhere in the NHL, only one team wins the cup.

He is leaving what he created because it got hard. Its that simple. If MJ said you miss 100% of the shots you don't take... then chose to never shoot again... yeah I would be like thats a bad moniker.

Again its not like he didn't create it. He is running from it. That is far different.

 

[Canucker]

He is leaving what he created because it got hard. Its that simple. If MJ said you miss 100% of the shots you don't take... then chose to never shoot again... yeah I would be like thats a bad moniker.

Again its not like he didn't create it. He is running from it. That is far different.

He didn't create this team, he coached it. You are making it out like Tocchet was obligated to stay by using those coaching credos against him, and you've said previously that he wasn't obligated. It would seem like you want to vilify him because he didn't "embrace the hard" you've imposed on him.

 

[VanJack]

The Canucks broke out the golf clubs early this season for three simple reasons. Their home record was one of the worst in the entire NHL; their OT record was atrocious; and they couldn't protect third period leads.

The general consensus is that despite all this, Tocchet still did a good job. And clearly the front office wanted him back.

But I guess at the end of the day, the coach has to own some of the above facts. And one thing is for sure. If those three categories don't improve dramatically next season, they'll get the same result no matter who is behind the bench.

 

[racerjoe]

He didn't create this team, he coached it. You are making it out like Tocchet was obligated to stay by using those coaching credos against him, and you've said previously that he wasn't obligated. It would seem like you want to vilify him because he didn't "embrace the hard" you've imposed on him.

He imposed the hard on himself...

Look I don't know what else you would call this situation, but he clearly left because it was too hard for him.

Again I am overall happy he left. He should take accountability for what he created though.

 

[Canucker]

He imposed the hard on himself...

Look I don't know what else you would call this situation, but he clearly left because it was too hard for him.

Again I am overall happy he left. He should take accountability for what he created though.

Well he's chosen another "hard" to embrace, elsewhere, as is his right as a coach not under contract.

I'm happy he's gone too, I think there are better options available....but I disagree that he really created anything here, and I'm not sure what he needs to do to take accountability for anything? I haven't seen him shirking any questions about it and left with good words for everyone in the organization, so I'm not sure what kind of accountability you are looking for from him?

 

[racerjoe]

Well he's chosen another "hard" to embrace, elsewhere, as is his right as a coach not under contract.

I'm happy he's gone too, I think there are better options available....but I disagree that he really created anything here, and I'm not sure what he needs to do to take accountability for anything? I haven't seen him shirking any questions about it and left with good words for everyone in the organization, so I'm not sure what kind of accountability you are looking for from him?

He helped create the terrible situation the Canucks are in... it is his job to help with the locker room. I think sending JT miller to help "toughen up" Pettersson as reported is a pretty big blunder... Had he been better at the managing player part of his job the situation I am sure would be better.

 

[Vector]

 

[Hodgy]

I think, from an optics perspective, Tocchet going to Philadelphia would be the best possible result.

 

[Nick Lang]

So is he not coaching?

Also i would argue he can say it was a hard season, and it was, and the team did fine in those circumstances... but how much of that was him to blame? I would say a lot of it.

This season I really lost a lot of respect for him. I don't care we lost him. I pointed to a podcast that really started to change my mind on him (the Too Many Men Podcast), and its not sour grapes, its just laughing at a man that can't live by his own rules.

And if you are the coach, it is different than some random job you have. This is something you have helped build. This isn't the end of an era... he started to build something and it got hard so he left. Its a loser mentality.

This sounds a little crazy and exactly like sour grapes to me. So a coach isn't allowed to ever leave a team and better himself because he tries to teach perseverance and not giving up?

That seems a little unreasonable without even hearing or knowing the exact details of the decision.

 

[racerjoe]

This sounds a little crazy and exactly like sour grapes to me. So a coach isn't allowed to ever leave a team and better himself because he tries to teach perseverance and not giving up?

That seems a little unreasonable without even hearing or knowing the exact details of the decision.

Every situation is obviously a little different.

But you are the coach of a team, you have input on the players brought in, you make the blunders he has, then yes. Go back listen to the Too Many Men podcast tell me they are not bang on about Tocchett not helping create this situation.

 

[rypper]

The replies to that tweet from flyers fans... lol

 

[F A N]

Well he's chosen another "hard" to embrace, elsewhere, as is his right as a coach not under contract.

This was a right that management generously gave to him. The Canucks held a club option and chose not to exercise it presumably in good faith as part of the process in negotiating an extension.

I disagree that he really created anything here, and I'm not sure what he needs to do to take accountability for anything? I haven't seen him shirking any questions about it and left with good words for everyone in the organization, so I'm not sure what kind of accountability you are looking for from him?

I think @racerjoe has responded to this pretty well. It was a situation that involved Tocchet stepping in and he did. But he also did nothing. Petey sucked towards the end of last season and said he was hurt and Tocchet didn't think much of it. If he was hurt Tocchet should have rested him any chance he gets. If Tocchet thinks Petey is just being a baby he should have held him accountable and not play him like he was still the team's best forward. The same with this season. If Petey came to camp out of shape and he thinks it's because of work ethic reasons then again why is he playing him like he's still the team's best forward? Tocchet could have easily scratched him and gave Petey's explanation (which is Petey's knee injury prevented him from training properly and so he is a bit behind in his overall conditioning etc). I think when we talk about coaches holding players accountable it's rewarding players with ice time based on whether the player deserves it or not.

 

[Nick Lang]

Every situation is obviously a little different.

But you are the coach of a team, you have input on the players brought in, you make the blunders he has, then yes. Go back listen to the Too Many Men podcast tell me they are not bang on about Tocchett not helping create this situation.

I don't usually listen to podcasts (probably for this reason lol), I assume I just google it, but I'll give it a go when I get some time later on.

I just find it an insanely hardcore standard but fair enough if that's your standard I guess. It's really high. I guess if he ever thought or thinks he might leave for another team then he shouldn't mention anything regarding dedication, or those similar staples he talked about, or else clarify that it is in regards to playing hockey and not future jobs. It just seems odd he's not allowed to leave now because of a couple sound bites.

Do you have a link ... I'm not sure what I'm looking for here?

 

[arttk]

I don't think it's that hard to square up. A management team can indeed really like a player and recognize that it just isn't working with that player. That's what I meant by it not being about "liking".

Alvin is also not a guy I see really burning bridges or talking crap about someone. He's not Burke or Torts. He's a quiet guy that I don't think intentionally wants to stir something up. Especially months after putting it to rest so to speak. In no way do I expect him to talk crap about Miller in a season ticket meeting even if he wanted to or had reason to.

There is nothing to gain to talk crap about Miller now, that’s just classless.
Talking crap about Petey is different is because he’s our player and they feel like that is somehow a good way to motivate him (disclaimer: I don’t agree).

 

[arttk]

I think, from an optics perspective, Tocchet going to Philadelphia would be the best possible result.

Feels like he is interviewing with other teams to increase his leverage which is the right strategy.

 

[racerjoe]

I don't usually listen to podcasts (probably for this reason lol), I assume I just google it, but I'll give it a go when I get some time later on.

I just find it an insanely hardcore standard but fair enough if that's your standard I guess. It's really high. I guess if he ever thought or thinks he might leave for another team then he shouldn't mention anything regarding dedication, or those similar staples he talked about, or else clarify that it is in regards to playing hockey and not future jobs. It just seems odd he's not allowed to leave now because of a couple sound bites.

Do you have a link ... I'm not sure what I'm looking for here?

The Too Many Men Podcast | The Too Many Men Podcast

Sara, Shayna, and Alison break down what’s on their minds about pretty much anything. They also smile more. No mansplaining allowed!

toomanymenpod.podbean.com

I think its the episode from April 3rd. I know they at least talk about Tocchet in that one.

I don't set the standard, he set the standard he just isn't holding himself to that standard.

 

[tantalum]

There is nothing to gain to talk crap about Miller now, that’s just classless.
Talking crap about Petey is different is because he’s our player and they feel like that is somehow a good way to motivate him (disclaimer: I don’t agree).

I also think the “talking crap” about Pettersson is overblown. They’ve said he (and others) weren’t prepared and didn’t use the off-season like they should have. That can be true along with those players not being the root cause of the issue.

And while I don’t really want to talk shit about Miller either (what’s done is done), it is INCREDIBLY rich for Miller to have that attitude given his history of needing to learn the same things and his history of sometimes floating…some of which was in a Canuck uniform witnessed by the same room. He’s not some long term recognized leader. His leadership epiphany, so to speak, was very recent. Miller is not the same as, say, Horvat.

 

[BOBBY9]

People don’t get it. Rick has options. That’s why he left.

A few of the teams that are interested in him have teams trending upwards while the Canucks are trending downwards. We have 1 really good player who is likely to leave.

Why would you want to coach a team who is trending downwards, in a Canadian market with a ‘star’ forward who you’re sick of talking about everyday?

Good for Rick. It’s a smart professional decision for him.