Post-Game Talk: Canucks 3 Leafs 2

[Gary Nylund]

Overall last playoffs: Lowest high danger (clutch) save% behind maybe the best D numbers in the playoffs

Last 3 games: .892 save%, .682 high danger save%

There are a couple of goalies that post around here. Ask them what they thought. I already know how they saw that series......

If it's the goalies fault, then we're screwed since we have the same goalie as last season. So I guess we can look forward to endless 1st round exits until Dubas is fired and the core is broken up so we can afford an elite goaltender?

I also find it interesting that you take issue with me focusing on four game 7's, but have no problem with focusing on 3 specific games in one series after chiding me for not looking at the "big picture".

 

[Gallagbi]

Your line of thinking doesn’t generate any solutions. If you reduce Saturday’s result to Thatcher Demko Superstar, end of discussion we are going to walk into the next game and get goalied without any tactical ability to break down and disrupt a static slot defense.

My solution was to limit the chances against whole continuing to generate significant high danger opportunities. You don't lose playoff games 0-0.

Because you’re going run into the next Price, Demko, Korpisalo, Merzlikins, Vedjmelka, Markstrom eventually. And you’re going to keep wondering why your high volume shots don’t seem to work. And why the scrambles in front look so dangerous but there’s two 6’3” just parked there and nobody’s generating. And you’re going to keep coming to the same conclusion we got Goalied. And why our goalie let us down.

We haven't had a single performance in playoffs that compares to Demko Saturday.

I'll ask again, what playoff performance by any of those goalies in a single game resembled Demko on Friday? As good as Price and Korpi were, they didn't face the volume or variety of chances we produced Saturday.

A change of tactics means you try to break down one variable and that is a big blueline that’s clogging up space. Then you get to work on the inside against the hot goalie. Otherwise you’re not going to have any new looks and we’re going to be on the wrong side of an elimination game having learned nothing.

We worked the inside, it's how Marner carved through the slot multiple times it's how Tavares found Matthews on the PP. It's how Brodie hit the post. It's how Tavares and Nylander each found themselves behind the Nucks D for downlow plays.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A change of tactics means you try to break down one variable and that is a big blueline that’s clogging up space. Then you get to work on the inside against the hot goalie. Otherwise you’re not going to have any new looks and we’re going to be on the wrong side of an elimination game having learned nothing.

But we did break down Vancouver's blueline. We did "get to work on the inside against a hot goalie". We did get a bunch of varied looks of high quality. The issue is that you're looking at the end score result, and assuming, in contrast to both the eye test and every possible metric, that Vancouver's defense did some special thing that shut us down, when it was really just a goalie having a stellar game at one end, and a goalie having a below average performance at the other end.

You're assuming that the team of skaters did something wrong to get to this result, when they actually did everything right and still lost. No matter what they do or what tactics they change, they will still have games where this type of thing happens, because all teams do. Looking exclusively at the end score result to conclude whether the skaters did what they should have is incredibly flawed.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

I don’t want to touch the topic of team construction with a ten foot pole right now. But how do we get the most juice out of what we have in the conditions that frustrate us the most?

That is why what we really need is a hockey guy taking over and then retool this team to what works in playoff hockey

 

[Gallagbi]

But we did break down Vancouver's blueline. We did "get to work on the inside against a hot goalie". We did get a bunch of varied looks of high quality. The issue is that you're looking at the end score result, and assuming, in contrast to both the eye test and every possible metric, that Vancouver's defense did some special thing that shut us down, when it was really just a goalie having a stellar game at one end, and a goalie having a below average performance at the other end.

You're assuming that the team of skaters did something wrong to get to this result, when they actually did everything right and still lost. No matter what they do or what tactics they change, they will still have games where this type of thing happens, because all teams do. Looking exclusively at the end score result to conclude whether the skaters did what they should have is incredibly flawed.

I would add there's always opportunities to question some decisions in a game like Saturday. Shot placement, pass vs. Shot, etc..

But that's a lot different than a misguided claim about chance generation and process.

 

[Buds17]

Overall last playoffs: Lowest high danger (clutch) save% behind maybe the best D numbers in the playoffs

Last 3 games: .892 save%, .682 high danger save%

There are a couple of goalies that post around here. Ask them what they thought. I already know how they saw that series......

I'll concede Game 5 (3 GF, 4 GA). The Leafs scored two goals in Game 6 and one goal in Game 7. I think that's arguably asking for a lot out of the goaltending in order to win both of those games (the deciding game, in particular).

 

[Stephen]

My solution was to limit the chances against whole continuing to generate significant high danger opportunities. You don't lose playoff games 0-0.


We haven't had a single performance in playoffs that compares to Demko Saturday.

I'll ask again, what playoff performance by any of those goalies in a single game resembled Demko on Friday? As good as Price and Korpi were, they didn't face the volume or variety of chances we produced Saturday.


We worked the inside, it's how Marner carved through the slot multiple times it's how Tavares found Matthews on the PP. It's how Brodie hit the post. It's how Tavares and Nylander each found themselves behind the Nucks D for downlow plays.

Well, I guess the conclusion then is they did all they could have just like in Game 6 OT against Montreal. Since there’s no other way to mix up the attack or make any in game adjustments we’ll just blame our goalies and the GM who brought the pair in. Is that conclusion you want?

 

[Gallagbi]

Well, I guess the conclusion then is they did all they could have just like in Game 6 OT against Montreal. Since there’s no other way to mix up the attack or make any in game adjustments we’ll just blame our goalies and the GM who brought the pair in. Is that conclusion you want?

Do you think Saturday and Game 6 were the same? In quality of opportunities, volume of chances and variety do you think it was similar?

 

[Mess]

The odd thing to me here is the level of resistance to the idea that tactical adjustments could be made to break down a static defense, take away a layer of support from a godlike goalie having an all-time performance. As if it were okay for a stacked, dominant team to lose to a goalie standing on his head and this team can’t make any adjustments.

Which raises the unintended ironic question. If elite goaltending is the ultimate trump card that can produce wildly anomalous games and steal series against vastly superior teams, why didn’t we build around that type of impact player?

On a fundamental level, the God Goalie Thesis is a much more pessimistic viewpoint than suggesting we could mix up the attack with the personnel that we have. Because we don’t have one of those guys and because we’re bound to run into one. I don’t think people realize that.

"Good teams are built from the goalie out, through strong team defense, and strength down the middle".

Our Leafs by going by a tandem team, don't really have an elite proven netminder and have to faith they can win in the playoffs now, with 2 backup goalies. When you think you have 2 goalies you really don't have 1.

Going to be interesting if goaltending becomes our downfall, not because of stellar opposition goaltending stealing series, but our own goalies costing us, particularly the way the pair is playing currently.

 

[Ziggdiezan]

Overall last playoffs: Lowest high danger (clutch) save% behind maybe the best D numbers in the playoffs

Last 3 games: .892 save%, .682 high danger save%

There are a couple of goalies that post around here. Ask them what they thought. I already know how they saw that series......

Curious if there is a breakaway or odd man rush against statistic as I think those are highly tied to high danger sv%? I.e. more breakaways given means lower high danger sv% and the leafs possession style of very active defenders and lack of covering forwards leads to more odd man rushes and breakaways given up

 

[Gallagbi]

"Good teams are built from the goalie out, through strong team defense, and strength down the middle".

Our Leafs by going by a tandem team, don't really have an elite proven netminder and have to faith they can win in the playoffs now, with 2 backup goalies. When you think you have 2 goalies you really don't have 1.

Going to be interesting if goaltending becomes our downfall, not because of stellar opposition goaltending stealing series, but our own goalies costing us, particularly the way the pair is playing currently.

This you?

Campbell is certainly at the top of his game and putting in consistent performances night after night.

If Campbell does go down to injury Leafs are in lot of trouble.

Is he our MVP or is he an interchangeable backup?

 

[Mess]

I don’t want to touch the topic of team construction with a ten foot pole right now. But how do we get the most juice out of what we have in the conditions that frustrate us the most?

That is a completely different hornets nest topic when you start talking style of current Leaf player.

However on that note and the topic related of breaking down defenses I think management understands the issue being discussed here and not sitting idle ... The Leafs have come a long ways from the theory of a fast, skilled skating team that drives possession and shots is the ultimate path to success, because strong defenses and physical play and good coaching defensive systems etc all offset that as we have seen that make the opposition goalie appear to be the Hero of the story.

Leafs by adding players like Bunting, Kase, Ritchie, Simmonds Clifford etc who are not afraid to play in traffic, and crash the net looking for greasy goals in the blue paint and not shying away from contact are the types of players to lesson the advantage of the Godlike Goalie complex. All that fancy perimeter passing and puck possession and long range shots are not solving why the shot clock is not an accurate way to break down defenses nor evaluate goalie play alone. Players able to play dump and chase forcing DMen into the corners are breaking down by not allowing the opposition to set up their defensive box in the crease and slot as opposed to when the other team enters the zone with possession like Leafs like to do, and then content to leave them alone out there while they block shots and clog passing lanes and insulate the goalie, and other goal suppression tactics.

The regular season just the warmup and this hard hitting , tight checking, limited time and space only increase exponentially as does the QofC of the opposition and a teams willingness to sacrifice the body and do anything to win "killer instinct".

 

[meefer]

A loss by the Leafs is an opportunity for angst for many. Two losses in a row and the fan base loses their shit. It has always been thus.

Chill people: good friends return to tell how right they are after being absent for 3 months, agendas are confirmed, favorites are questioned, and lord have mercy the sky is falling.

Tomorrow is another day. Let's not lose sight of the fact that overall, we're doing pretty well this year - well, if you consider the best point rate as being pretty good - and the year isn't over.

We have a good team. A tweak or two and we're good.

Giroux please.

 

[Willchel Marlynder]

If all losses looked like this I don't think anyone has a problem all season. Leafs played well and just got outgoalied (with a phenomenal effort by Demko mind you). Plus There's definitely some sort of curse with the Rogers Arena. Looking forward to the game against Seattle

 

[Gabriel426]

But they do... We had 53 shots in this game... Sometimes you just don't get the bounces.

As much as some people don't like to admit it, goalies have a massive impact, and sometimes you do everything right - everything better than the other team - and you still lose. That's hockey.

There was no "defensive strategy" that shut us down this game. We got quality shots and chances of all kinds.

I agree. Afterall, if the team got 50 shots on goal and still lose the game, it means the other goalie is really dominant.
My question is more general and not just the Leafs but how all teams play against this type of system.
Like would having forwards fighting position more in front of the net, or do more stretch passes from the back to increase rush chances….

 

[Zybalto]

I'll concede Game 5 (3 GF, 4 GA). The Leafs scored two goals in Game 6 and one goal in Game 7. I think that's arguably asking for a lot out of the goaltending in order to win both of those games (the deciding game, in particular).

Tampa closed out their last 3 series last year scoring 4 goals in 3 games and winning all three. They have closed out their last 5 series with 5 shutouts in a row.

I'm just asking for one great game for a Toronto keeper in an elimination game....just one.

 

[Gallagbi]

Tampa closed out their last 3 series last year scoring 4 goals in 3 games and winning all three. They have closed out their last 5 series with 5 shutouts in a row.

I'm just asking for one great game for a Toronto keeper in an elimination game....just one.

I'm not even sure Game 5/7 would have been considered great games if our goalies shut the door. Maybe mistake free

Both games were a soft goal, an unintended tip and an ENG

 

[Buds17]

Tampa closed out their last 3 series last year scoring 4 goals in 3 games and winning all three. They have closed out their last 5 series with 5 shutouts in a row.

I'm just asking for one great game for a Toronto keeper in an elimination game....just one.

I definitely hear you and wish for the same. I unfortunately still see that lack of offence in the past three deciding games (two goals), Vasilevskiy level goaltending being tough to come by, and a Leaf team that just doesn't seem to be built to succeed in that manner.

 

[Stephen]

Do you think Saturday and Game 6 were the same? In quality of opportunities, volume of chances and variety do you think it was similar?

On the spectrum of the Leafs the playing a 1) less talented team 2) dramatically out shooting a team 3) dominating offensive clock time 4) facing seemingly impenetrable goaltending 5) facing a bigger defensive group parked in front of the net on a box out and 6) losing the game on a chintzy counter punch goal, yeah I’d say we’re dealing with some a general environment where the Leafs aren’t thriving. What’s so controversial about it?

Is it really this painful to have a discussion about tactical adjustments like mixing in a harder chip and chase, heavy forecheck game to disrupt the opposition from parking the net or drive the net harder or try to work those cross seam plays?

 

[Zybalto]

I could have sworn the Leafs just ran over the Wings and Devils twice scoring 20 goals in three games. They have been lighting up weaker teams quite often actually. It's been the norm.

 

[Gallagbi]

On the spectrum of the Leafs the playing a 1) less talented team 2) dramatically out shooting a team 3) dominating offensive clock time 4) facing seemingly impenetrable goaltending 5) facing a bigger defensive group parked in front of the net on a box out and 6) losing the game on a chintzy counter punch goal, yeah I’d say we’re dealing with some a general environment where the Leafs aren’t thriving. What’s so controversial about it?

Gotcha so kinda like how I'm similar to Gretzky being a left handed, male hockey player about the same height, from the same area.

I'd ask again though- In quality of opportunities, volume of chances and variety do you think it was similar in Saturday compared to something like Game 6?

Is it really this painful to have a discussion about tactical adjustments like mixing in a harder chip and chase, heavy forecheck game to disrupt the opposition from parking the net or drive the net harder or try to work those cross seam plays?

I think the issue is that many of the outcomes you want were present on Saturday. You started by saying mixing up the attack through seems and not being kept to the outside. Everything from Saturday suggests we did exactly that. Mess tried to suggest it was rush opportunities and we didn't have dangerous zone time, but as usual @Mess missed the mark by a mile.

This all goes back to my original point on the topic which is that Saturday didn't play out like any recent playoff loss. There's room to discuss varying tactics, but you seem to ignore the varied offensive attack we had Saturday. I'm not sure if it's simply not wanting to relinquish your position or if you honestly believe we outplayed by a similar margin to CBJ/MTL or Calgary.

I'd post my eye test for you, but I think we both know it's a waste of time for how it'll be received. I could post the advanced stats to compare as well, but again, is it worth it?

 

[Confucius]

Tampa closed out their last 3 series last year scoring 4 goals in 3 games and winning all three. They have closed out their last 5 series with 5 shutouts in a row.

I'm just asking for one great game for a Toronto keeper in an elimination game....just one.

Hopefully it isn't in the regular season to make the playoffs. or when we are down 3-1, 3-2, 3-0

 

[Gary Nylund]

Tampa closed out their last 3 series last year scoring 4 goals in 3 games and winning all three. They have closed out their last 5 series with 5 shutouts in a row.

I'm just asking for one great game for a Toronto keeper in an elimination game....just one.

TB getting those 5 shutouts in a row isn't just the goalie though, have you watched those games? I haven't seen them all myself but I have seen some of them and I can tell you that there's a lot more to those shutouts than goaltending.

You don't seem to want to understand that it's not like we keep playing awesome and we get out-goalied, it's just not that simple. When you get outscored 18-6 the way we did in our last 4 game 7's, there's lots of blame to go around. The goalies get their share but it's just bizarre how you can't see that it's not just the goalie, the team as a whole has just plain sucked in those games. Sure you can pick away at Campbell's performance in game 7 but you realize that we didn't score any goals right? That's something TB managed to do in all their game 7's, score at least one goal.

 

[Zybalto]

TB getting those 5 shutouts in a row isn't just the goalie though, have you watched those games? I haven't seen them all myself but I have seen some of them and I can tell you that there's a lot more to those shutouts than goaltending.

You don't seem to want to understand that it's not like we keep playing awesome and we get out-goalied, it's just not that simple. When you get outscored 18-6 the way we did in our last 4 game 7's, there's lots of blame to go around. The goalies get their share but it's just bizarre how you can't see that it's not just the goalie, the team as a whole has just plain sucked in those games. Sure you can pick away at Campbell's performance in game 7 but you realize that we didn't score any goals right? That's something TB managed to do in all their game 7's, score at least one goal.

We scored as many goals as Tampa averaged in their last two elimination wins.

I'm on board for saying theres blame to go around.....but I'm also being realistic that if you switched the goalies the last two playoffs, the Leafs win both comfortably.

It is what it is.

 

[Gabriel426]

We scored as many goals as Tampa averaged in their last two elimination wins.

I'm on board for saying theres blame to go around.....but I'm also being realistic that if you switched the goalies the last two playoffs, the Leafs win both comfortably.

It is what it is.

Dude, if you think the difference between the two time CUP Champs and us is the goalie, I don't know what to say.

TB's players esp their top guys stepped up or switched gear while our top guys seem to be in reverse.
Lets just hope our top guys can maintain their regular season level in the playoffs.