Post-Game Talk: Canucks 3 Leafs 2

[Stephen]

There are 2 philosophies in play here.

1) Playing Offense ..[Generate as many shots and scoring chances]

If you theoretically control the time possession clock & the shot clock in a game = you're the A) better team & B) you should have the better odds of winning. Have the puck more and shoot more = winning more and when it doesn't happen "dammit the goalie beat us again" as often the only excuse to explain away the loss. Doesn't matter if its playoffs like CBJ or Montreal or its regular season losing to weak teams like Vancouver with Demko or Arizona (to a goalie I'd never even heard of at the time). Leafs did all they could so it must be the opposition goalie only. They even pull out their fancy excel spreadsheets #'s to support their case the Leafs were the better offensive team on paper and the ice.

2) Playing Defense ..[Reduce as many shots and scoring chances]

Weaker teams, particularly underdog ones going up against strong offenses are not going to want to play run and gun with the Leafs and exchange chances at par. They know they will not control the shot nor the time of possession so they concede that even before the puck drops.. Their objective is a defense first strategy and a very passive offense, simply take advantages of mistakes and limited opportunities with the focus on insulating their goalie by shot blocking or clogging up the neutral zone (via trap) to disrupt the rush, or as you have been discussing attempting to block out high danger scoring areas in their own Dzone via system [ via tight box], and structure and sometimes use physicality to offset Leafs attack. Not all teams are equal nor does it eliminate all good scoring opportunities as the goalie still has to do his part and make key saves, but the objective is to WIN the game through Defense not Offense.

A lot of fans simply don't understand #2 "Defense wins Championships" philosophy as its not the "Goalie alone wins Championships", as he is just the last line of the defense. They believe only in theory #1 its all about the "Offense Wins championships" and look at all the offensive talent the Leafs have and how much Cap they spend on those high-end high skilled players.. Even in this game they point to scoring opportunities and HDSC created to dispute the other team was strategically trying to play defense to slow down as key objective to reduce goals against.

So when the #3 lowest scoring team CBJ defeats the #3 highest scoring team TOR and knocks them out of the playoffs then "bad luck opposition Goalie beat us, too bad so sad nothing we can do about that". No other reason like strong opposition coaching, or system/structure or game plan, or line matching or shutdown lines etc.

The objective again is the win the game, so you see a version of defense vs offense play out in varying degrees each game, to varying degrees of success.

Apparently pointing out other teams have defensive game plans that support and prop up great goaltending is some kind of massive controversy.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Not the first time we've heard this.

And it won't be the last time, because it happens to literally every team.

Leafs need to find a way to break through

Leafs do "break through" very effectively. We got endless scoring chances and high danger chances from in close, the slot, etc., and peppered the goalie with 53 shots of all kinds. But this is hockey. A group of skaters can do everything right - everything better than the other team - and still lose.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

This was a regular season game against a bad team from west. These games happen over a regular season. Why all you guys blame our tenders past month or so kinda makes me laugh. Have they been great? No. But they have played fine. This is exact same pattern this CORE has performed like for years now. Nothing much has really changed. And there is no good FIX due to our overspends on Mitch, JT and Matty. So those guys have to do it themselves. Truth is they can't. And it will get worse as things tighten up and season progresses. But like NHL needs it for 1st round ratings for tV deal, da East is now set and Leafs are in. So they will drop off a bit and likely end up 4th and play Florida or Tampa in round 1.

Bottom line is NO team is winning anything with a 7th wheel with very little game playing in your top 4. Dubie has made a mistake here and hopefully he has sense to try to FIX otherwise he will be fired.

Holl can't keep giving away games and goals like he does. He is trying his best. It is just a 7th wheel. An NHL/AHL tweener. And this year Muzzy can't keep making him look like a player due to STATS. Muzzy is dropping off. And Holl is getting clearer now to fans. Hockey guys have always known it but most fans just cluing in this season. Shanny knows it. But he is giving Dubie his last harrah. Someone has to be sacrificed after another 1st round exit.

A hockey exec will be brought in. Mitch will be traded for missing playoff pieces/and fix CAP and then team will have 2 shots at Cup.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Apparently pointing out other teams have defensive game plans that support and prop up great goaltending is some kind of massive controversy.

No, what's "controversial" is taking a game we completely dominated in every possible way, where we broke down Vancouver defense and got endless shots, chances, high danger chances, etc. from the most dangerous areas on the ice, and crediting Vancouver's win to the "defensive strategy" of Vancouver that did absolutely nothing effective and didn't stop us from anything, instead of the obviously excellent goaltending they received.

I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to admitting that goaltending has a significant impact in the game of hockey.

 

[Zybalto]

Yeah pretty crazy how our expected this and that seem to always be more than we actually end up with in the playoffs. And how many "goaltending outliers" do we have to lose to in the playoffs before you consider the possibility that we're making them look better than they really are?

If our offence is "as consistent and stable a great offense as there is in the league", why can't we score when it matters most? Our last three game 7's, we've scored a grand total of 2 goals but there is no problem, we'll just keep doing what we do and be confident of success?

All three goalies the last playoffs did it to everyone else too and were beaten by the other team having goaltending to match up against them, especially in those game 7s.

You know the most saves Vasy has ever had in a playoff game?.......the same game Korpisalo set the playoff saves record in. Now thats a clutch goalie with heart that refused to let his team lose despite the other goalie playing the best hockey of his life. If our team had some of that, we may be celebrating cups. It's the missing ingredient here. Like I said, our goalies have given up softer goals in those big games than Price/Vasy combined the last two years. I just put a higher emphasis on the goaltending differential than you do here. I don't think Tampa's stars have been any better than our stars in big games the last two years but their goalie has carried the hell out of them while ours has sunk us.

Going back to last season, the Bolts have won 5 straight series with a shutout (including 2 cups) and even the 3 series before that were clutch OT wins.

Im not even asking for that.....I just want an average showing in big games to give us a chance.

 

[Stephen]

No, what's "controversial" is taking a game we completely dominated in every possible way, where we broke down Vancouver defense and got endless shots, chances, high danger chances, etc. from the most dangerous areas on the ice, and crediting Vancouver's win to the "defensive strategy" of Vancouver that did absolutely nothing effective and didn't stop us from anything, instead of the obviously excellent goaltending they received.

I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to admitting that goaltending has a significant impact in the game of hockey.

A team can have great goaltending and play an effective slot protection game at the same time. Just like a player can skate and breathe at the same time. It’s not a referendum on your pet ideas.

 

[Dekes For Days]

A team can have great goaltending and play an effective slot protection game at the same time.

They can, yes. Vancouver didn't. They just had the great goaltending.

 

[Stephen]

Not the first time we've heard this. I get it with the Habs and their big, strong, hard hitting dmen and Price but with the sad Canucks D (missing their best dman) and Demko ?? Leafs need to find a way to break through or polish up the golf clubs.

Well, if you look at the way the Canucks played and what kind of defensemen they had on Saturday night, it was sort of a budget version of what we saw in Montreal. Tyler Myers, Luke Schenn, Travis Hamonic, Jason Dickinson and OEL are all big wingspan disrupters at 6’2” to 6’9”. OEL is still a little better than the rest but what else are you going to do in the defensive end other than park the bus in front of Demko?

 

[Zybalto]

This was a regular season game against a bad team from west. These games happen over a regular season. Why all you guys blame our tenders past month or so kinda makes me laugh. Have they been great? No. But they have played fine. This is exact same pattern this CORE has performed like for years now. Nothing much has really changed. And there is no good FIX due to our overspends on Mitch, JT and Matty. So those guys have to do it themselves. Truth is they can't. And it will get worse as things tighten up and season progresses. But like NHL needs it for 1st round ratings for tV deal, da East is now set and Leafs are in. So they will drop off a bit and likely end up 4th and play Florida or Tampa in round 1.

Bottom line is NO team is winning anything with a 7th wheel with very little game playing in your top 4. Dubie has made a mistake here and hopefully he has sense to try to FIX otherwise he will be fired.

Holl can't keep giving away games and goals like he does. He is trying his best. It is just a 7th wheel. An NHL/AHL tweener. And this year Muzzy can't keep making him look like a player due to STATS. Muzzy is dropping off. And Holl is getting clearer now to fans. Hockey guys have always known it but most fans just cluing in this season. Shanny knows it. But he is giving Dubie his last harrah. Someone has to be sacrificed after another 1st round exit.

A hockey exec will be brought in. Mitch will be traded for missing playoff pieces/and fix CAP and then team will have 2 shots at Cup.

Leafs 5v5 NHL ranking since January 1st:

Shots Against: 3rd fewest in the NHL
Scoring Chances Against: 2nd fewest in the NHL
High Danger Chances Against: 2nd fewest in the NHL

Team save%: Tied for last in the NHL

But they have played fine.

But they have played fine.

But they have played fine.

 

[Confucius]

They can, yes. Vancouver didn't. They just had the great goaltending.

It's the same old story..
Simon and Garfunkel- Keep The Customer Satisfied - YouTube

 

[Gary Nylund]

All three goalies the last playoffs did it to everyone else too and were beaten by the other team having goaltending to match up against them, especially in those game 7s.

You know the most saves Vasy has ever had in a playoff game?.......the same game Korpisalo set the playoff saves record in. Now thats a clutch goalie with heart that refused to let his team lose despite the other goalie playing the best hockey of his life. If our team had some of that, we may be celebrating cups. It's the missing ingredient here. Like I said, our goalies have given up softer goals in those big games than Price/Vasy combined the last two years. I just put a higher emphasis on the goaltending differential than you do here. I don't think Tampa's stars have been any better than our stars in big games the last two years but their goalie has carried the hell out of them while ours has sunk us.

Going back to last season, the Bolts have won 5 straight series with a shutout (including 2 cups) and even the 3 series before that were clutch OT wins.

Im not even asking for that.....I just want an average showing in big games to give us a chance.

Seems odd to keep blaming goaltending then we've only scored 2 goals in the last 3 game 7's, plus our SV% has been excellent in the last 2 playoffs overall. But if goaltending really is the problem then I guess Dubas has screwed up by spending so much cap space on a few forwards. Either way, the pattern holds - we do really well at having a bunch of "numbers" which supposedly show how good we are, yet we keep losing in the playoffs.

At some point when the numbers don't line up with the results, you should be questioning the numbers as they simply are not as meaningful as you seem to think.

 

[Mess]

Apparently pointing out other teams have defensive game plans that support and prop up great goaltending is some kind of massive controversy.

Remember when I got my head ripped off after the Arizona loss for controversially honestly admitting I had never heard of Karel Vejmelka before this game, because he had just upset our Leafs in that one and only reason / explanation for all Leaf losses when they out-shoot/out-chance an opponent?

The fact he was a relative unknown NHL commodity caused a massive outrage controversy, because I didn't buy into the same old Leaf loss excuse outcomes as a result of World class goaltending by star goalie Vejmelka.

That however speaks to the point (insert random goalie here) you have been unsuccessfully and apparently controversially making in this game, by pointing out while watching the opposition strategy and defensive attempt to force that outcome in an effort to solve it as opposed to simply excuse it away.

When you see 4 Leafs on the perimeter passing the puck around at will on the outside in the Ozone and running up the possession clock with only 1 in the box and outnumbered 5-1 because of defensive formation then its not so much dominating the other team, its actually by defensive design and it only allowed 2 goals against and a win for the opposition so it was ultimately also successful winning strategy in earning them victory.

 

[Twine Tickler]

Can't be disappointed with that effort. Thought Mrazek needed to be better. Especially on the GWG. That rebound has to be handled better. Didn't like goal number 1 either for so many reasons. Holl with the vintage make an easy play hard moment, and Mrazek with the massive overplay. Goal 2 was a bit of a fluke, but that needs to stay out. Whether thats Muzz doing a better job clearing the top of the crease or Mrazek locating that puck through traffic better, that just cannot go in.

All n all though that was pure domination start to finish. Eerily similar to the game in Arizona this year with Vejmelka doing us dirty.

we had the puck for probably 80% of the game and somehow managed to have 2 more penalties than Vancouver. Including 2 in the 3rd period....Figure that one out for me.

I am still very confused with the JT penalty to end the game as well. I was at the game, and they never showed a replay. My entire section thought it was for the slash seconds prior (Motte on JT). I am still not sure if they have found the video of where JT committed the penalty.

Thems the breaks.

 

[Zybalto]

Seems odd to keep blaming goaltending then we've only scored 2 goals in the last 3 game 7's, plus our SV% has been excellent in the last 2 playoffs overall. But if goaltending really is the problem then I guess Dubas has screwed up by spending so much cap space on a few forwards. Either way, the pattern holds - we do really well at having a bunch of "numbers" which supposedly show how good we are, yet we keep losing in the playoffs.

At some point when the numbers don't line up with the results, you should be questioning the numbers as they simply are not as meaningful as you seem to think.

I think part of it is I don't just see game 7's but the whole picture. I mean, I think the Leafs win before game 7 anyways last season with good goaltending....and I think theres an element of playing on a team (im sure you have too at some point) where you're giving it your all and facing this brick wall on the other side and your own teammates/goalie then make catastrophic mistakes that crush morale. I don't all players arnt affected by this but I know its a damn hard feeling to shake off.

I think a lot of things overall have gone against the team and they are capable of more. Lets see how it shakes out in the playoff this year. (against a top 5 NHL team of course).

I think all the losing has poisoned some minds in the sense it's hard to give proper credit where it is due and folks are defaulting to blaming the team. This thread is a perfect example. The worst thing about the last game was probably the team play of the Canucks really.....but you have people actually promoting it as something good as a way of diminishing one of the best offenses in the league this season despite the other team calling out themselves for being a trainwreck.

Demko played an absolutely killer game with his reflexes and positioning. He won them the game despite the Leafs almost running a PP 5v5. No need to praise the crap team in front of him.

 

[Bluelines]

What a limited understanding of the game. How do you continue to post such utter nonsense on here?

High level , offence + defence, = hockey.

 

[Mess]

I'm not sure why some people are so opposed to admitting that goaltending has a significant impact in the game of hockey.

The conclusion is easy to draw by connecting the dots, so as long as the Leafs out-shoot, outwork, out-chance the opposition in any game, because they're a highly skilled team, then the only reason/excuse they have for losing is if the opposition has decided to ice a goalie and put him between the pipes.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I think part of it is I don't just see game 7's but the whole picture. I mean, I think the Leafs win before game 7 anyways last season with good goaltending....and I think theres an element of playing on a team (im sure you have too at some point) where you're giving it your all and facing this brick wall on the other side and your own teammates/goalie then make catastrophic mistakes that crush morale. I don't all players arnt affected by this but I know its a damn hard feeling to shake off.

I think a lot of things overall have gone against the team and they are capable of more. Lets see how it shakes out in the playoff this year. (against a top 5 NHL team of course).

I think all the losing has poisoned some minds in the sense it's hard to give proper credit where it is due and folks are defaulting to blaming the team. This thread is a perfect example. The worst thing about the last game was probably the team play of the Canucks really.....but you have people actually promoting it as something good as a way of diminishing one of the best offenses in the league this season despite the other team calling out themselves for being a trainwreck.

Demko played an absolutely killer game with his reflexes and positioning. He won them the game despite the Leafs almost running a PP 5v5. No need to praise the crap team in front of him.

I look at the big picture, but I also focus in on the playoffs because those games are more important and of course game 7's are even more important. I would also say that playoff hockey is simply different from regular season hockey so perhaps they should be looked at separately? And the fact that this team for years now has much worse results in the playoffs than in the regular season suggests that there is something to this idea.

Now that we got all that out of the way, Campbell had a SV% of .934 in the playoffs. I'd say that is "good goaltending", I'd even say it's better than just good so unless I'm missing something, your contention that "Leafs win before game 7 anyways last season with good goaltending" is simply wrong. We got good goaltending, we lost anyway. Same thing against CLB the year previous.

 

[Dekes For Days]

The conclusion is easy to draw by connecting the dots, so as long as the Leafs out-shoot, outwork, out-chance the opposition in any game because of they're a highly skilled team, then the only reason/excuse they have for losing is if the opposition has decided to ice a goalie and put him between the pipes.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If the Leafs outshoot, outchance, and outwork a team, but lose, then yes, goaltending is the difference. This is beyond obvious and undeniable. It's not just "the opposition has decided to ice a goalie and put him between the pipes". Both teams do that every game. The quality of the goaltending performance is what makes a difference, not the mere fact of their existence.

In this Vancouver game, Demko had one of the best goaltending performances on any team this season, while Mrazek's performance was below average.

 

[Stephen]

The conclusion is easy to draw by connecting the dots, so as long as the Leafs out-shoot, outwork, out-chance the opposition in any game because of they're a highly skilled team, then the only reason/excuse they have for losing is if the opposition has decided to ice a goalie and put him between the pipes.

The odd thing to me here is the level of resistance to the idea that tactical adjustments could be made to break down a static defense, take away a layer of support from a godlike goalie having an all-time performance. As if it were okay for a stacked, dominant team to lose to a goalie standing on his head and this team can’t make any adjustments.

Which raises the unintended ironic question. If elite goaltending is the ultimate trump card that can produce wildly anomalous games and steal series against vastly superior teams, why didn’t we build around that type of impact player?

On a fundamental level, the God Goalie Thesis is a much more pessimistic viewpoint than suggesting we could mix up the attack with the personnel that we have. Because we don’t have one of those guys and because we’re bound to run into one. I don’t think people realize that.

 

[JT AM da real deal]

The odd thing to me here is the level of resistance to the idea that tactical adjustments could be made to break down a static defense, take away a layer of support from a godlike goalie having an all-time performance. As if it were okay for a stacked, dominant team to lose to a goalie standing on his head and this team can’t make any adjustments.

Which raises the unintended ironic question. If elite goaltending is the ultimate trump card that can produce wildly anomalous games and steal series against vastly superior teams, why didn’t we build around that type of impact player?

On a fundamental level, the God Goalie Thesis is a much more pessimistic viewpoint than suggesting we could mix up the attack with the personnel that we have. Because we have one of those guys and because we’re bound to run into one. I don’t think people realize that.

Team was built incorrectly .. starts with a top 5 tender .. then 2 stud defenders .. and then 2 stud centres .. then fill in around your CORE .. add in a Kessel/Mitch piece if you have room .. we got 2 wingers, 1 centre and 1 defense .. da formula never works .. especially in a CAP world

 

[Apex Predator]

I think it’s fair to say that some games it’s a goalie that shuts us completely out and nothing to do with the team playing any defense or specific strategy. Other times it’s not. You can even say the Flames/Canucks series we saw both situations happen. Flames had a strategy against us and Canucks goalie’d us.


I think it’s not a coincidence that the leafs run into a hot goalie many times and it’s more to do with certain strategy. We can pick and choose which games that was or wasn’t but to say it’s always a goalie that went to god mode against us isn’t true.

 

[Gallagbi]

The odd thing to me here is the level of resistance to the idea that tactical adjustments could be made to break down a static defense, take away a layer of support from a godlike goalie having an all-time performance. As if it were okay for a stacked, dominant team to lose to a goalie standing on his head and this team can’t make any adjustments.

The resistance is to what we actually saw on the ice this past Saturday and the incorrect assumption some have made to force a narrative

Suggesting the Nuck's effectively clogged up the slot is false. Eye test, stats, doesnt matter. The Nucks bled high quality chances in prime scoring areas all might with very little being off the rush. Watch the highlights, rewatch the game, check the stats. It's easy to see.

That's the disconnect and why you're taking heat. There's been low event hockey where many feel we outplayed the opposition, like last playoff or tje Calgary game, but the series didn't generate nearly as many scoring chances either way compared to Saturday.

 

[Stephen]

The resistance is to what we actually saw on the ice this past Saturday and the incorrect assumption some have made to force a narrative

Suggesting the Nuck's effectively clogged up the slot is false. Eye test, stats, doesnt matter. The Nucks bled high quality chances in prime scoring areas all might with very little being off the rush. Watch the highlights, rewatch the game, check the stats. It's easy to see.

That's the disconnect and why you're taking heat. There's been low event hockey where many feel we outplayed the opposition, like last playoff or tje Calgary game, but the series didn't generate nearly as many scoring chances either way compared to Saturday.

Your line of thinking doesn’t generate any solutions. If you reduce Saturday’s result to Thatcher Demko Superstar, end of discussion we are going to walk into the next game and get goalied without any tactical ability to break down and disrupt a static slot defense.

Because you’re going run into the next Price, Demko, Korpisalo, Merzlikins, Vedjmelka, Markstrom eventually. And you’re going to keep wondering why your high volume shots don’t seem to work. And why the scrambles in front look so dangerous but there’s two 6’3” just parked there and nobody’s generating. And you’re going to keep coming to the same conclusion we got Goalied. And why our goalie let us down.

A change of tactics means you try to break down one variable and that is a big blueline that’s clogging up space. Then you get to work on the inside against the hot goalie. Otherwise you’re not going to have any new looks and we’re going to be on the wrong side of an elimination game having learned nothing.

 

[Stephen]

Team was built incorrectly .. starts with a top 5 tender .. then 2 stud defenders .. and then 2 stud centres .. then fill in around your CORE .. add in a Kessel/Mitch piece if you have room .. we got 2 wingers, 1 centre and 1 defense .. da formula never works .. especially in a CAP world

I don’t want to touch the topic of team construction with a ten foot pole right now. But how do we get the most juice out of what we have in the conditions that frustrate us the most?

 

[Zybalto]

I look at the big picture, but I also focus in on the playoffs because those games are more important and of course game 7's are even more important. I would also say that playoff hockey is simply different from regular season hockey so perhaps they should be looked at separately? And the fact that this team for years now has much worse results in the playoffs than in the regular season suggests that there is something to this idea.

Now that we got all that out of the way, Campbell had a SV% of .934 in the playoffs. I'd say that is "good goaltending", I'd even say it's better than just good so unless I'm missing something, your contention that "Leafs win before game 7 anyways last season with good goaltending" is simply wrong. We got good goaltending, we lost anyway. Same thing against CLB the year previous.

Overall last playoffs: Lowest high danger (clutch) save% behind maybe the best D numbers in the playoffs

Last 3 games: .892 save%, .682 high danger save%

There are a couple of goalies that post around here. Ask them what they thought. I already know how they saw that series......