Post-Game Talk: Canucks 3 Leafs 2

[Stephen]

etc

Your analysis is correct and what you're describing is a 1-2-2 zone defense hockey (Defensive Zone Coverage - Box Plus One), that works in other sports like Basketball as well, where essentially the defensive team collapses back into their own zone in this formation of a square with a forward up top or in the slot with the goal to block out the slot and high danger areas and remove rebounds in close by outnumbering the opposition in the red zone and keeping them on the perimeter. There is your so called heat zone map.

There is lots of time and space for puck possession on the perimeter to have lots of OZone time but more low danger shots from the outside as well. Realistically if performed well how many opposition players with puck possession are going to be able to penetrate that formation?

Where I believe you're getting push back from the stats spreadsheet junkies is that not all lines are created equal and so all players are not as strong defensively so when say a 4th line is on the ice and they ice the puck then Leafs toss all the big boys out for a Ozone faceoff and generate some higher quality chances against weaker tired opposition. So therefore an example like that is designed to deny your point of defensive scheme because the spreadsheet said Leafs had 8 HDSC so you must be wrong. Of course the defensive scheme is not perfect nor fool proof as odd man attack and rushes alone before the formation is established also will show higher quality scoring changes surrendered. Nylander on a breakaway also does not apply to this overall defensive play. etc.

You're playing the percentages here and even when you surrender a lot of shots against the goalie is suppose to have an easier time here where you limit the high danger changes and rebounds in close and fire lots of shots from the perimeter for the most part.

Vancouver is not a good nor strong team so their ability to defend would be less than CBJ and MON who did it to perfection against our Leafs.

Pretty much. That’s what it looks on the ice and it doesn’t really matter if it’s a Vezina caliber goalie (Price, Demko, Markstrom) or a guy who looks like one (Korpisalo, Vedjmelka) for one night. Nor does it say anything about the quality of the team whether it’s Calgary or Vancouver.

Not really sure why the existence of coaching tactics or agency among opposition teams seems to be so unpalatable to some people, all of it is just an opportunity to mix in different play styles when we encounter such a game plan.

Unless you’re happy to get goalied inexplicably, have no answer on the ice and explain it as luck in the season ending presser.

 

[Mess]

Pretty much. That’s what it looks on the ice and it doesn’t really matter if it’s a Vezina caliber goalie (Price, Demko, Markstrom) or a guy who looks like one (Korpisalo, Vedjmelka) for one night. Nor does it say anything about the quality of the team whether it’s Calgary or Vancouver.

Not really sure why the existence of coaching tactics or agency among opposition teams seems to be so unpalatable to some people, all of it is just an opportunity to mix in different play styles when we encounter such a game plan.

Unless you’re happy to get goalied inexplicably, have no answer on the ice and explain it as luck in the season ending presser.

Its a very popular zone defense designed to insulate the goalie making his job easier by boxing out the high danger areas and outnumbering the rebound chances while keep the opposition on the perimeter for lower quality and long range shots.

Its often referred to as box +1 or 4 +1 Dzone coverage.

If interested here is a link that explains it and the responsibilities of the defensive players and how it shifts and moves as the puck moves around the perimeter.

Defensive Zone Coverage : Defensive Zone Coverage Part 1 - Zone Defence

Our highly skilled Leafs team will and should often expect this as lower scoring defensive first teams deploy it, keeping Leafs skilled players on the perimeter as much a possible, and allows the goalie to shine because of being insulated. So while some always point to the opposition goalie insert name here _______ beat us excuse for the losses, its actually good coaching and the defensive scheme behind it that orchestrated the outcome.

Allowing the opposition team the luxury of possession and passing the puck around on the perimeter is the low risk downfall because you only have 1 defender pressuring to try and create a turnover and loss of possession. Fans see the Leafs passing the puck at will in the Ozone around the perimeter and it looks like their dominating the play and the opposition, but its really the defensive scheme that is allowing and dictating that because their goal is prevention of quality scoring chances and not puck possession.

 

[notbias]

Whatever defensive plan the Canucks had, they didn't execute it well, their goalie bailed them out.

I don't even understand how this is a debate.

Go watch Boudreau's interview after the game and tell me he doesn't know they got outplayed.

 

[Zybalto]

Whatever defensive plan the Canucks had, they didn't execute it well, their goalie bailed them out.

I don't even understand how this is a debate.

Go watch Boudreau's interview after the game and tell me he doesn't know they got outplayed.

I'm actually kind of enjoying all this.

Of all the things to feel very strongly about, the big push by some around here to praise the Canucks defensive game is just astonishing. Almost everyone out there including the Canucks fans, their coach, their media, their players thought they were completely outclassed and saved by their keeper.

Boudreau was actually kind of flustered as the Canucks media (which are as rabid as any) kept pushing him on why the team looked so awful even though they won and he plainly said the other team (the Leafs) is a great team and the fastest team we've seen all year but at least give the boys credit for hanging on and endlessly praised Demko as underrated and glad they get to play him every night.

J.T. Miller: We didn't play well enough to win and Demko got us the two points. We didnt check fast enough. They took it to us, plain and simple.

 

[Stephen]

To be very clear, I’m not praising the Canucks quality of play like they’re geniuses but pointing out that a team of any quality can fall back to a slot defense and absorb a high volume number of shots and concede perimeter time and space and puck possession as a tactic for neutralizing Toronto, and there are other factors at play other than simply getting goalied.

The chances you’ll see a park the bus game in Seattle to be pretty high. Chances are you’ll see it in an elimination game. Deny its existence all you want but Toronto will have to find different ways to break this kind of game again in the future. Otherwise you’re just falling back on 1) their goalie is a Vezina candidate. 2) our goalie didn’t give us a chance 3) we are unlucky, this wouldn’t happen if you simulated this game over and over.

 

[Gallagbi]

To be very clear, I’m not praising the Canucks quality of play like they’re geniuses but pointing out that a team of any quality can fall back to a slot defense and absorb a high volume number of shots and concede perimeter time and space and puck possession as a tactic for neutralizing Toronto, and there are other factors at play other than simply getting goalied.

To be clear, it's a horrendous argument in regards to last night and the fact you don't see it is beyond amazing for anyone who has watched hockey for any time.

It's a solid argument for the CGY game, but the quality of chances last night doesn't suggest or show limiting anything. We generated significantly above our normal amount of chances and in dangerous areas.

 

[Stephen]

To be clear, it's a horrendous argument in regards to last night and the fact you don't see it is beyond amazing for anyone who has watched hockey for any time.

It's a solid argument for the CGY game, but the quality of chances last night doesn't suggest or show limiting anything

You’ve been denying the existence of this defensive strategy against Toronto since Game 6 of the Montreal series. Like you prefer to think the team is getting Patrick Roy’ed for some reason than to mix up the game plan.

The fact is any team of any quality with any type of goalie has a chance against Toronto if they stuff the slot, let their goalies stop the first shot from distance and then scramble on the rebound. Toronto has to find ways to disrupt that from happening. Simple.

 

[Gallagbi]

You’ve been denying the existence of this defensive strategy against Toronto since Game 6 of the Montreal series. Like you prefer to think the team is getting Patrick Roy’ed for some reason than to mix up the game plan.

I guess when you're down to this you have to make shit up.

If you don't understand just ask. Don't lie, it's not a good look.

 

[Zybalto]

You’ve been denying the existence of this defensive strategy against Toronto since Game 6 of the Montreal series. Like you prefer to think the team is getting Patrick Roy’ed for some reason than to mix up the game plan.

I don't deny sometimes teams try to rope a dope and trap and turtle/counterattack other strategies but you shouldn't deny that teams also get plain dominated and cannot do anything else but absorb the punishment and hope their goalie steals the game.

Toronto's only real tough time converting this season was the first 7 games of the season as Matthews had a late start and had to get up to speed, they were trying Robidas Ritchie on the first line and other hiccups were happening.

Since oct. 26th, the Leafs are:

5th for shot attempts
6th for shots on goal
1st for scoring chances for
3rd for high danger chances for
3rd for expected goals for
3rd for goals scored

Thats as consistent and stable a great offense as there is in the league.

Theyve only lost 10 games over this stretch and only possibly "goalied" in what, 4 of them? (Calgary Arizona, Vancouver, NYR)

I don't think they are an outlier in any way here....at least not in the way we've somehow faced two of the biggest goaltending outliers two playoffs in a row (and probably 3 considering Rask was the best keeper the playoffs before) Thats a pretty crazy outlier when you think about it....especially when you consider all three goaltenders were thought to have had a rough regular season giving no indication of what was coming in the playoffs and not just against the Leafs.

I'm more worried about our own goaltending right now though (as we all should be).

 

[Gallagbi]

I don't deny sometimes teams try to rope a dope and trap and turtle/counterattack other strategies but you shouldn't deny that teams also get plain dominated and cannot do anything else but absorb the punishment and hope their goalie steals the game.

Toronto's only real tough time converting this season was the first 7 games of the season as Matthews had a late start and had to get up to speed, they were trying Robidas Ritchie on the first line and other hiccups were happening.

Since oct. 26th, the Leafs are:

5th for shot attempts
6th for shots on goal
1st for scoring chances for
3rd for high danger chances for
3rd for expected goals for
3rd for goals scored

Thats as consistent and stable a great offense as there is in the league.

Theyve only lost 10 games over this stretch and only possibly "goalied" in what, 4 of them? (Calgary Arizona, Vancouver, NYR)

I don't think they are an outlier in any way here....at least not in the way we've somehow faced two of the biggest goaltending outliers two playoffs in a row (and probably 3 considering Rask was the best keeper the playoffs before) Thats a pretty crazy outlier when you think about it....especially when you consider all three goaltenders were thought to have had a rough regular season giving no indication of what was coming in the playoffs and not just against the Leafs.

I'm more worried about our own goaltending right now though (as we all should be).

Nobody has denied teams try to defend. There's definitely questions on how effective some have been in doing so, especially for actual chances and not just GA.

 

[zeke]

Leafs walk into a game, dramatically outshoot an opposition goalie, hold the puck much longer than the opposition, the heat maps look fantastic and yet are inexplicably Patrick Roy'ed and the big guns limited in effectiveness by a park the bus defensive approach by the opposition. It's a fairly specific game plan. Seems usual people don't want to believe there's some thought process from the opposition that produces these kind results.

Do you think this happens more to the Leafs than other teams?

 

[Gabriel426]

I kept hearing opposing team can clog the middle and play the zone defence in front of the goalie and allow outside possession for the other team…but won’t crowding in front of the net also means blocking the goalie. Now I know the players can also block shots but as long as the shots are through, it would make the goalie hard to make a save on tip ins or shots bouncing off someone or even going straight in the net due to all the bodies in front of him.
My question is why don’t the Leafs practice getting shots through? Or why don’t the players continue to shoot and hope for tip ins, bouncing off someone or sneaking the shot into the net?

 

[Gary Nylund]

Nope, not getting sucked into this again (I actually wrote a paragraph too lol).

Good idea. We've played poorly in game 7's, trying to argue otherwise is what's known as a fool's errand.

 

[Dekes For Days]

My question is why don’t the Leafs practice getting shots through? Or why don’t the players continue to shoot and hope for tip ins, bouncing off someone or sneaking the shot into the net?

But they do... We had 53 shots in this game... Sometimes you just don't get the bounces.

As much as some people don't like to admit it, goalies have a massive impact, and sometimes you do everything right - everything better than the other team - and you still lose. That's hockey.

There was no "defensive strategy" that shut us down this game. We got quality shots and chances of all kinds.

 

[ER89]

As much as Marzek should have had the 2nd goal it was John Tavares that blew it last night.

Not only with a terrible, pointless pass that led to the winner but also with his stupid penalty.

Usually Tavares is great but last night he blew it.

The Leafs had ALL the momentum if they they go into the tied I believe they win.

They didn't because Tavares made 2 stupid plays

Honestly Taveras has been shit for quite awhile and he did blow the play. But the penalty was bullshit and i don't think it was on him. The refs were just borderline brain-dead.

 

[Bluelines]

Do you think this happens more to the Leafs than other teams?

There are 32 teams, odds are, yes there are teams that this happens to more than the Leafs.

 

[Bluelines]

Kinda one of those things where we faced two great goalies, we out played the other team and shit happens sometimes in team sports that is not "fair". If we get 50 shots a night every night in the SC Playoffs, our chances of winning a cup go up exponentially. I don't like the outcome of the last 2 games but I do like the effort. Campbell wont suck for ever, he will shake it off, our shooters will do their thing. This Leafs team is one dang good team, no matter how much I dislike Keefes approach, they are playing great despite his limitations.

 

[Mess]

You’ve been denying the existence of this defensive strategy against Toronto since Game 6 of the Montreal series. Like you prefer to think the team is getting Patrick Roy’ed for some reason than to mix up the game plan.

The fact is any team of any quality with any type of goalie has a chance against Toronto if they stuff the slot, let their goalies stop the first shot from distance and then scramble on the rebound. Toronto has to find ways to disrupt that from happening. Simple.

There are 2 philosophies in play here.

1) Playing Offense ..[Generate as many shots and scoring chances]

If you theoretically control the time possession clock & the shot clock in a game = you're the A) better team & B) you should have the better odds of winning. Have the puck more and shoot more = winning more and when it doesn't happen "dammit the goalie beat us again" as often the only excuse to explain away the loss. Doesn't matter if its playoffs like CBJ or Montreal or its regular season losing to weak teams like Vancouver with Demko or Arizona (to a goalie I'd never even heard of at the time). Leafs did all they could so it must be the opposition goalie only. They even pull out their fancy excel spreadsheets #'s to support their case the Leafs were the better offensive team on paper and the ice.

2) Playing Defense ..[Reduce as many shots and scoring chances]

Weaker teams, particularly underdog ones going up against strong offenses are not going to want to play run and gun with the Leafs and exchange chances at par. They know they will not control the shot nor the time of possession so they concede that even before the puck drops.. Their objective is a defense first strategy and a very passive offense, simply take advantages of mistakes and limited opportunities with the focus on insulating their goalie by shot blocking or clogging up the neutral zone (via trap) to disrupt the rush, or as you have been discussing attempting to block out high danger scoring areas in their own Dzone via system [ via tight box], and structure and sometimes use physicality to offset Leafs attack. Not all teams are equal nor does it eliminate all good scoring opportunities as the goalie still has to do his part and make key saves, but the objective is to WIN the game through Defense not Offense.

A lot of fans simply don't understand #2 "Defense wins Championships" philosophy as its not the "Goalie alone wins Championships", as he is just the last line of the defense. They believe only in theory #1 its all about the "Offense Wins championships" and look at all the offensive talent the Leafs have and how much Cap they spend on those high-end high skilled players.. Even in this game they point to scoring opportunities and HDSC created to dispute the other team was strategically trying to play defense to slow down as key objective to reduce goals against.

So when the #3 lowest scoring team CBJ defeats the #3 highest scoring team TOR and knocks them out of the playoffs then "bad luck opposition Goalie beat us, too bad so sad nothing we can do about that". No other reason like strong opposition coaching, or system/structure or game plan, or line matching or shutdown lines etc.

The objective again is the win the game, so you see a version of defense vs offense play out in varying degrees each game, to varying degrees of success.

 

[Gallagbi]

There are 2 philosophies in play here.

1) Playing Offense ..[Generate as many shots and scoring chances]

If you theoretically control the time possession clock & the shot clock in a game = you're the A) better team & B) you should have the better odds of winning. Have the puck more and shoot more = winning more and when it doesn't happen "dammit the goalie beat us again" as often the only excuse to explain away the loss. Doesn't matter if its playoffs like CBJ or Montreal or its regular season losing to weak teams like Vancouver with Demko or Arizona (to a goalie I'd never even heard of at the time). Leafs did all they could so it must be the opposition goalie only. They even pull out their fancy excel spreadsheets #'s to support their case the Leafs were the better offensive team on paper and the ice.

2) Playing Defense ..[Reduce as many shots and scoring chances]

Weaker teams, particularly underdog ones going up against strong offenses are not going to want to play run and gun with the Leafs and exchange chances at par. They know they will not control the shot nor the time of possession so they concede that even before the puck drops.. Their objective is a defense first strategy and a very passive offense, simply take advantages of mistakes and limited opportunities with the focus on insulating their goalie by shot blocking or clogging up the neutral zone (via trap) to disrupt the rush, or as you have been discussing attempting to block out high danger scoring areas in their own Dzone via system [ via tight box], and structure and sometimes use physicality to offset Leafs attack. Not all teams are equal nor does it eliminate all good scoring opportunities as the goalie still has to do his part and make key saves, but the objective is to WIN the game through Defense not Offense.

A lot of fans simply don't understand #2 "Defense wins Championships" philosophy as its not the "Goalie alone wins Championships", as he is just the last line of the defense. They believe only in theory #1 its all about the "Offense Wins championships" and look at all the offensive talent the Leafs have and how much Cap they spend on those high-end high skilled players.. Even in this game they point to scoring opportunities and HDSC created to dispute the other team was strategically trying to play defense to slow down as key objective to reduce goals against.

So when the #3 lowest scoring team CBJ defeats the #3 highest scoring team TOR and knocks them out of the playoffs then "bad luck opposition Goalie beat us, too bad so sad nothing we can do about that". No other reason like strong opposition coaching, or system/structure or game plan, or line matching or shutdown lines etc..

What a limited understanding of the game. How do you continue to post such utter nonsense on here?

 

[Dekes For Days]

The objective again is the win the game, so you see a version of defense vs offense play out in varying degrees each game, to varying degrees of success.

Putting aside everything else that was wrong, Leafs were the better offensive and defensive team. The only thing they weren't better at was goaltending.

 

[Gallagbi]

Leafs were the better offensive and defensive team.

It's singular though, right @Mess? Teams only try to accomplish one or the other.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I don't deny sometimes teams try to rope a dope and trap and turtle/counterattack other strategies but you shouldn't deny that teams also get plain dominated and cannot do anything else but absorb the punishment and hope their goalie steals the game.

Toronto's only real tough time converting this season was the first 7 games of the season as Matthews had a late start and had to get up to speed, they were trying Robidas Ritchie on the first line and other hiccups were happening.

Since oct. 26th, the Leafs are:

5th for shot attempts
6th for shots on goal
1st for scoring chances for
3rd for high danger chances for
3rd for expected goals for
3rd for goals scored

Thats as consistent and stable a great offense as there is in the league.

Theyve only lost 10 games over this stretch and only possibly "goalied" in what, 4 of them? (Calgary Arizona, Vancouver, NYR)

I don't think they are an outlier in any way here....at least not in the way we've somehow faced two of the biggest goaltending outliers two playoffs in a row (and probably 3 considering Rask was the best keeper the playoffs before) Thats a pretty crazy outlier when you think about it....especially when you consider all three goaltenders were thought to have had a rough regular season giving no indication of what was coming in the playoffs and not just against the Leafs.

I'm more worried about our own goaltending right now though (as we all should be).

Yeah pretty crazy how our expected this and that seem to always be more than we actually end up with in the playoffs. And how many "goaltending outliers" do we have to lose to in the playoffs before you consider the possibility that we're making them look better than they really are?

If our offence is "as consistent and stable a great offense as there is in the league", why can't we score when it matters most? Our last three game 7's, we've scored a grand total of 2 goals but there is no problem, we'll just keep doing what we do and be confident of success?

 

[ToneDog]

Putting aside everything else that was wrong, Leafs were the better offensive and defensive team. The only thing they weren't better at was goaltending.

Not the first time we've heard this. I get it with the Habs and their big, strong, hard hitting dmen and Price but with the sad Canucks D (missing their best dman) and Demko ?? Leafs need to find a way to break through or polish up the golf clubs.

 

[Zybalto]

Vancouver has been much better lately but has overall been bad and has played 49 games this year.

Their 5v5 differentials last game were:

Scoring Chances: 2nd worst game out of 49
High Danger Chances: 3rd worst game out of 49
Expected Goals: 4th worst game out of 49
Shots: #1 worst game out of 49

Literally, one of the worst games a not great team played this season and they even say so themselves.

We can all argue about everything around here from what happened in the playoffs to who should be on what lines, etc.., but to try and argue anything other than Demko (a goalie with the best 5v5 save% in the NHL!) was the deciding factor is just bizarre. They were dominated in every way and a goaltending difference between the teams (and some shoddy officiating I would argue) got them the two points.

Why have the Leafs gotten goalied by teams who win by their goalie doing that to other teams? I mean..... This is all pretty simple isnt it. Is this crazy level devil's advocate or something?

 

[Gallagbi]

Not the first time we've heard this. I get it with the Habs and their big, strong, hard hitting dmen and Price but with the sad Canucks D (missing their best dman) and Demko ?? Leafs need to find a way to break through or polish up the golf clubs.

Do you think the Canucks game was similar to any of the losses we had to the Habs? Did we generate anything close in those Habs get to what you saw on Saturday?