Can someone clarify how original 6 teams acquired amateur talent?

[JianYang]

I've seen articles out there debunking the claim that the habs dominance was because they had first rights to French players.

However, it does confuse me at the same time, so I'm going to lay out some of these items below:

1) I think I've heard before that each team had territorial rights to players within a certain radius of their respective cities. If true, did these territorial rights deny other teams from signing a player to a C form under any circumstances.

2). How were the rights to certain regions established? I vaguely recall hearing how the habs and leafs had their areas in the east, and the wings in the west.

What were these rights based on? In orr's case, I read that the bruins funded the team that he played on so they had the rights, but I'm unclear what the exact components went into establishing a territory, and the extent of the rights that it gave a team.

Like, were the leafs completely handcuffed from offering orr a contract because he was on a bruins funded team?

3) If the territorial rights were a massive force, then how did some good Quebec born players like Keon, ratelle, and pronovost slip through the cracks and find themselves on teams other than the habs?

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[HFBS]

I've seen articles out there debunking the claim that the habs dominance was because they had first rights to French players.

Don't believe them. Do you think it's an accident that the two canadian teams dominated the 4 American teams for 30+ years but not since?

 

[JianYang]

Don't believe them. Do you think it's an accident that the two canadian teams dominated the 4 American teams for 30+ years but not since?

In reference to that paragraph you quoted, it's true that the habs for specific periods had certain rights to local players, but it had zero impact for the most part.

The key provision was that they couldn't use this on players who were already signed to c forms, so it was more of a supplemental draft for scraps that nobody wanted. It actually didn't result in anything meaningful until the very last years of the O6 era where they got Houle and tardiff.

Anyways, I'm more interested in the mechanisms behind signing amateur talent and how the rights worked beyond this supplemental draft. Besides the examples I listed in the OP, I'll throw in gordie Howe as well, and how it came to be that the wings were able to secure him out of western Canada.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Boston had the rights to certain parts of Alberta, there is a reason why Boston Pizza started in Edmonton. My father, who was a goalie, had his rights owned by the bruins, but since he was asked to pay his own way to training camp--he said no.

Teams owned area rights prior to the creation of the NHL entry draft.

It took awhile for the draft, started in 1963 to work, cause certain teams had signed players to contracts. It was also alledged that teams agreed not to draft some players, giving them no choice to sign with certain teams if they wanted to play. That is why the draft was only 4 rounds long, with some teams passing after a few round because they had stock pile of players already playing in the different pro leagues in Canada and the US. There were other pro leagues around prior to the world hockey association. in 65 the leafs did not draft at all due to all the good players were already called for.

It is when the late 60's rolled around and the nhl actual gave the rights to the best french players directly to the habs. Not all, just 2 per year, I think and that still did not really help them. If you look at the core of the habs dynasty in the 70's, only 1 or 2 they got from the "habs" rule. Most had turned pro prior the rule kicking in and rules changing for the draft.

There was a book out years ago that looked the business side of the NHL in the 60's and how they did business would not stand up in todays business. An example of that is the fact that the Wings and hawks shared owners. Each owned minority ownership % of the other team.

 

[kaiser matias]

Boston had the rights to certain parts of Alberta, there is a reason why Boston Pizza started in Edmonton. My father, who was a goalie, had his rights owned by the bruins, but since he was asked to pay his own way to training camp--he said no.

Teams owned area rights prior to the creation of the NHL entry draft.

It took awhile for the draft, started in 1963 to work, cause certain teams had signed players to contracts. It was also alledged that teams agreed not to draft some players, giving them no choice to sign with certain teams if they wanted to play. That is why the draft was only 4 rounds long, with some teams passing after a few round because they had stock pile of players already playing in the different pro leagues in Canada and the US. There were other pro leagues around prior to the world hockey association. in 65 the leafs did not draft at all due to all the good players were already called for.

It is when the late 60's rolled around and the nhl actual gave the rights to the best french players directly to the habs. Not all, just 2 per year, I think and that still did not really help them. If you look at the core of the habs dynasty in the 70's, only 1 or 2 they got from the "habs" rule. Most had turned pro prior the rule kicking in and rules changing for the draft.

There was a book out years ago that looked the business side of the NHL in the 60's and how they did business would not stand up in todays business. An example of that is the fact that the Wings and hawks shared owners. Each owned minority ownership % of the other team.

Boston Pizza started in Edmonton because that's where Gus Agioritis, the founder, lived. He wanted to go in the trend of New York and Chicago-style pizza, but picked Boston. It's not entirely clear why, but his brothers (who helped found the restaurant) later said it was because Boston was a well-known city, especially to Greek immigrants like themselves. It had nothing to do with Bruins' territorial rights, especially when you consider the WHL Edmonton Flyers were a Red Wings affiliate.

 

[Stephen]

Don't believe them. Do you think it's an accident that the two canadian teams dominated the 4 American teams for 30+ years but not since?

The 1970s Habs were built through the amateur draft and other non territorial means, but if you go back to the Original Six era, it's not like there were a ton of French Canadian players starring on teams that weren't the Montreal Canadiens.

 

[MadLuke]

Don't believe them. Do you think it's an accident that the two canadian teams dominated the 4 American teams for 30+ years but not since?

When was those 30 year's, beacuse the Red wings won more game from 37-38 to 67-68 ?
NHL Stats

And Montreal will still win the most games and cups the next 30 year's

 

[JianYang]

Boston had the rights to certain parts of Alberta, there is a reason why Boston Pizza started in Edmonton. My father, who was a goalie, had his rights owned by the bruins, but since he was asked to pay his own way to training camp--he said no.

Teams owned area rights prior to the creation of the NHL entry draft.

It took awhile for the draft, started in 1963 to work, cause certain teams had signed players to contracts. It was also alledged that teams agreed not to draft some players, giving them no choice to sign with certain teams if they wanted to play. That is why the draft was only 4 rounds long, with some teams passing after a few round because they had stock pile of players already playing in the different pro leagues in Canada and the US. There were other pro leagues around prior to the world hockey association. in 65 the leafs did not draft at all due to all the good players were already called for.

It is when the late 60's rolled around and the nhl actual gave the rights to the best french players directly to the habs. Not all, just 2 per year, I think and that still did not really help them. If you look at the core of the habs dynasty in the 70's, only 1 or 2 they got from the "habs" rule. Most had turned pro prior the rule kicking in and rules changing for the draft.

There was a book out years ago that looked the business side of the NHL in the 60's and how they did business would not stand up in todays business. An example of that is the fact that the Wings and hawks shared owners. Each owned minority ownership % of the other team.

Okay, so if we establish that teams had certain territories all across Canada, then are we saying that guys like ratelle, Keon, and pronovost were never in the habs territory even though they were from Quebec?

Does that imply that certain parts of Quebec contained territories that didn't belong to Montréal?

 

[MadLuke]

Why would team put so much effort into signing player early if they had some really strong regional right to them (and what happen if a player simply move ?)

I would imagine that any regional right if any where informal a la do not send offer sheet too much to not be hated today and what we see is a mix of the very few not signed player and before the regular draft regional right that did happen (but with little consequence) and team having a much better track record of signing local talent because of the infrastructure, junior team, etc... they owned, but the Bruins could still sign Orr and so on.

I could be totally wrong.

 

[Sanf]

I've seen articles out there debunking the claim that the habs dominance was because they had first rights to French players.

However, it does confuse me at the same time, so I'm going to lay out some of these items below:

1) I think I've heard before that each team had territorial rights to players within a certain radius of their respective cities. If true, did these territorial rights deny other teams from signing a player to a C form under any circumstances.

2). How were the rights to certain regions established? I vaguely recall hearing how the habs and leafs had their areas in the east, and the wings in the west.

What were these rights based on? In orr's case, I read that the bruins funded the team that he played on so they had the rights, but I'm unclear what the exact components went into establishing a territory, and the extent of the rights that it gave a team.

Like, were the leafs completely handcuffed from offering orr a contract because he was on a bruins funded team?

3) If the territorial rights were a massive force, then how did some good Quebec born players like Keon, ratelle, and pronovost slip through the cracks and find themselves on teams other than the habs?

I haven´t done as much research on O6 than other eras, but I can do long post on weekend about this.

I have never really seen solid proof of this regional right thing. I have seen opinions, hearsays, speculation and stories. I haven´t been that convinced.

I have seen even from past good articles with solid proof debunking this.

Personally I tend to believe it is more of ability to build system, contacts and naturally where your team is based etc. O6 era brought C Form and other ways to screw players rights.

I think the reason why Canadiens seem to have "exclusivity" to French-Canadien players is probably quite complex. And because I have never made deep research on that I´m probably wrong person to talk about that. But for example in my goalie research I have seen non French-Canadian goalies refused to sign for French-Canadian team. NHL history books have goalie Claude (Hennesey) Bourque from the time just before O6. Now when he wasn´t playing for Canadiens he was known as Claude Burke (which is claimed to be his birth name).

But I try to make longer post explaining my opinion.

 

[HFBS]

Okay, so if we establish that teams had certain territories all across Canada, then are we saying that guys like ratelle, Keon, and pronovost were never in the habs territory even though they were from Quebec?

Does that imply that certain parts of Quebec contained territories that didn't belong to Montréal?

It wasn't just Montreal, it was also Toronto. I've heard varying statements that they each were allowed to claim the rights to two players each year within their territory. Some years there were more good players, and sometimes they were wrong. That's how American teams sometimes got better players. But from (I'm not looking this up, off the top of my head) 1942 to 1969, Montreal and Toronto won all but 5 Cups. That's not an accident.

 

[Voight]

The 1970s Habs were built through the amateur draft and other non territorial means, but if you go back to the Original Six era, it's not like there were a ton of French Canadian players starring on teams that weren't the Montreal Canadiens.

Pollock also wrote the expansion rules and certainly took advantage of them.

 

[PurpleMouse]

Okay, so if we establish that teams had certain territories all across Canada, then are we saying that guys like ratelle, Keon, and pronovost were never in the habs territory even though they were from Quebec?

Does that imply that certain parts of Quebec contained territories that didn't belong to Montréal?

I could be wrong but I thought I recall reading somewhere once that each team had exclusive rights to players within a certain kilometre radius- which in Detroit's case, would stretch into Canada.

Worth noting that Keon is from Rouyn-Noranda and Ratelle the Chiocoutimi era, so likely out of the Montreal radius.

My understanding was always that Montreal & Toronto were dominant because of this, while Detroit was dominant to a combination of that plus the ownership structure. That could explain why there was such a clear have/have-not divide between those three and the rest of the league, but again, no idea if any of this is accurate.

 

[MadLuke]

It wasn't just Montreal, it was also Toronto. I've heard varying statements that they each were allowed to claim the rights to two players each year within their territory. Some years there were more good players, and sometimes they were wrong. That's how American teams sometimes got better players. But from (I'm not looking this up, off the top of my head) 1942 to 1969, Montreal and Toronto won all but 5 Cups. That's not an accident.

I am not sure how you can distinguish between hockey team owning the rights of players depending where the players are (and what age would that be, what happen if a team convince them to move in an other region ?) with hockey teams owning minors league system in some regions and signing players for life via c-form at young age with local player having an almost cult like devotion to their local hockey club in some case.

If teams own development farm, that there is 0 parity system like a draft, player owned by the juniors league until they turn 20, salary cap, giant disparity in a league can easily happen, if local player are more likely to sign with the local team and that talent is quite different from region to region even more, all that without any official special claim system in place.

The 2 players did happen in a certain windows, but very few non signed players.

Are you 100% certain than when Maurice Richard signed this:
SIGNED MAURICE RICHARD FIRST NHL CONTRACT 1942/43 COA | #24135085

It would have been absolutely impossible for him to go play for the Leafs or Wings instead if they made him an offer ? Why pay him so much if that the case ?

At what point would he have been possible for him to play elsewhere if Montreal never make him an offer ?

For exemple that story is really hard to make sense of:

Jean Béliveau timeline | Montreal Gazette

1948: Not yet 17, walking home from a baseball game, he is approached by Mickey Hennessey, who works for Canadiens GM Selke. Over soft drinks at a snack bar, Hennessey invites Béliveau to sign a C-form, legally tying him to the Canadiens, for which the scout will pay him $100 on the spot. Then Hennessey puts $200 cash on the table. Sorely tempted, Béliveau asks Hennessey to speak to his father.
1948: On several occasions, a number of Canadiens representatives, including captain Émile (Butch) Bouchard, visit the Béliveau home in Victoriaville. Each time, Arthur Béliveau turns them down, refusing to yield control of his teenage son to someone else.
1948: Béliveau signs a consent form with Sam Pollock’s Junior Canadiens, a non-binding invitation to attend training camp that fall.

Why the montreal canadian would be making so much effort to sign a player they already own the professional rights too ?

 

[tarheelhockey]

Don't believe them. Do you think it's an accident that the two canadian teams dominated the 4 American teams for 30+ years but not since?

Don't underestimate the deep, deep incompetence of the American franchises during that period.

Today's NFL has extremely high parity, but that doesn't stop the Patriots from being a different class of organization than the Jaguars.

 

[JianYang]

I am not sure how you can distinguish between hockey team owning the rights of players depending where the players are (and what age would that be, what happen if a team convince them to move in an other region ?) with hockey teams owning minors league system in some regions and signing players for life via c-form at young age with local player having an almost cult like devotion to their local hockey club in some case.

If teams own development farm, that there is 0 parity system like a draft, player owned by the juniors league until they turn 20, salary cap, giant disparity in a league can easily happen, if local player are more likely to sign with the local team and that talent is quite different from region to region even more, all that without any official special claim system in place.

The 2 players did happen in a certain windows, but very few non signed players.

Are you 100% certain than when Maurice Richard signed this:
SIGNED MAURICE RICHARD FIRST NHL CONTRACT 1942/43 COA | #24135085

It would have been absolutely impossible for him to go play for the Leafs or Wings instead if they made him an offer ? Why pay him so much if that the case ?

At what point would he have been possible for him to play elsewhere if Montreal never make him an offer ?

For exemple that story is really hard to make sense of:

Jean Béliveau timeline | Montreal Gazette

1948: Not yet 17, walking home from a baseball game, he is approached by Mickey Hennessey, who works for Canadiens GM Selke. Over soft drinks at a snack bar, Hennessey invites Béliveau to sign a C-form, legally tying him to the Canadiens, for which the scout will pay him $100 on the spot. Then Hennessey puts $200 cash on the table. Sorely tempted, Béliveau asks Hennessey to speak to his father.
1948: On several occasions, a number of Canadiens representatives, including captain Émile (Butch) Bouchard, visit the Béliveau home in Victoriaville. Each time, Arthur Béliveau turns them down, refusing to yield control of his teenage son to someone else.
1948: Béliveau signs a consent form with Sam Pollock’s Junior Canadiens, a non-binding invitation to attend training camp that fall.

Why the montreal canadian would be making so much effort to sign a player they already own the professional rights too ?

I guess in beliveau's case, he had leverage with the Quebec senior league where he was able to make good money.

But yes, it does beg the question, were there defined territories where it was legally impossible for other teams to scoop up an out of town player?

And if there was no such territories, why did we not see alot of player movement back then out of their home regions? Was there collusion going on?

What was the point for c forms if you could just inherently make a player your property to begin with?

It all just seems like a murky picture to me.

 

[MadLuke]

I guess in beliveau's case, he had leverage with the Quebec senior league where he was able to make good money.

Which did not change by him signing a exclusive professional contract with Montreal (maybe you are talking about the amount of money, then yes).

Maybe the wording is misleading but it really seem to imply team fought for professional control and paid parents/kids for it and if that was the case that would easily explain why teams closer to the best kids were better, they had more local resource to spot them and sign them, with kids/parents more willing to go for their favorite teams and involved less moving around to join the farm system, outside for Bobby Orr type prospect where teams would pay for everything, it would create way different signed prospect pool from region to region without any rules.

 

[jigglysquishy]

This was an era of literally zero minor hockey tape and close to zero junior hockey tape and radio coverage. To scout a player you needed to physically travel.

Teams were incredibly cheap with everything, including scouting staff.

Is anyone surprised that teams tended to have scouting monopolies of driving distance? Did anyone really expect a Harold Ballard or a Wirtz to fly a staffmember out to Montreal or Regina or Halifax? They were barely accepting of paying their players.

Scouting staff pre 1967 was below barebones.

 

[overpass]

Players were always free to sign C forms with any of the NHL teams. The teams didn't own territory where they had exclusive rights to players.

Every team had at least one full time scout, and also "bird dogs" in every city and town Canada who gave the scouts tips on young players to watch.

Montreal and Toronto had the edge when it came to signing young talent for several reasons. For one, they had deeper pockets and were willing to shell out the money to sign more young players and outbid others for the best players. They had more affiliated minor hockey teams across Canada, so young players who signed with them would get more support and were less likely to have to travel to play junior hockey. They had the best reputation for developing and supporting their young talent -- for example, the Leafs junior hockey program with the St Michaels Majors was considered first class for both hockey and education, which was attractive to parents of these teenagers who were weighing offers from multiple teams.

The weaker teams like Boston, the Rangers, Chicago in the 50s would compete for players by telling them they would get more opportunity to make the NHL with them, but if they signed with Montreal they would never make the league because Montreal was so deep. Bobby Orr chose the Bruins over other competing offers in part because Boston was rebuilding and he wanted to be part of a team of the future.

Here are some articles that touch on the system as it was.

They beat the bushes for stars | Maclean's | MARCH 31 1956

MONTREAL’S GREY-FLANNEL HOCKEY CARTEL | Maclean's | DECEMBER 3, 1960

 

[Sanf]

Players were always free to sign C forms with any of the NHL teams. The teams didn't own territory where they had exclusive rights to players.

Every team had at least one full time scout, and also "bird dogs" in every city and town Canada who gave the scouts tips on young players to watch.

Montreal and Toronto had the edge when it came to signing young talent for several reasons. For one, they had deeper pockets and were willing to shell out the money to sign more young players and outbid others for the best players. They had more affiliated minor hockey teams across Canada, so young players who signed with them would get more support and were less likely to have to travel to play junior hockey. They had the best reputation for developing and supporting their young talent -- for example, the Leafs junior hockey program with the St Michaels Majors was considered first class for both hockey and education, which was attractive to parents of these teenagers who were weighing offers from multiple teams.

The weaker teams like Boston, the Rangers, Chicago in the 50s would compete for players by telling them they would get more opportunity to make the NHL with them, but if they signed with Montreal they would never make the league because Montreal was so deep. Bobby Orr chose the Bruins over other competing offers in part because Boston was rebuilding and he wanted to be part of a team of the future.

Here are some articles that touch on the system as it was.

They beat the bushes for stars | Maclean's | MARCH 31 1956

MONTREAL’S GREY-FLANNEL HOCKEY CARTEL | Maclean's | DECEMBER 3, 1960

I wonder if the regional right stories derives from negotiation list. That was way to take players negotiation rights without player even knowing it. That had nothing to do with regions either though. There was time limit (one year after 1945 I believe) and limited spots on that list, but was somesort of way to force player to sign contract or form of somekind. There were few standstill situation even with player and club.

Source Ottawa Citizen 19. March 1952

MacLean article about that here...
Hog-tied Hockey | Maclean's | December 15, 1945

 

[overpass]

Here’s a blog post that goes into detail on the relationship between the NHL teams and amateur talent.

Historical Hockey Stats & Trivia: The Sponsorship System - The Pre-Expansion NHL's Monopsony on Players

One key point is that if a player chose to play for a junior team or league that was sponsored by an NHL club, his NHL rights were held by that club. This may be the source of the myth that the Canadiens held territorial rights. They held the rights to over 300 players through the dozens of teams they sponsored, not just in Quebec but across Canada. Other NHL teams also sponsored junior clubs in Quebec as there was no territorial restriction. But nobody sponsored as many teams as Montreal. They were willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain their junior network and have a pipeline of players to allow them to stay at the top of the league standings year after year.

The sponsorship of junior clubs was the main differentiator between NHL teams in acquiring amateur talent. Boston, for one, was unwilling to spend in this area until Walter Brown died and Weston Adams took over in 1964.

 

[overpass]

Ken Dryden's book on Scotty Bowman covers how Bowman, as a teenager, joined the Montreal Canadiens system.

Scotty Bowman played on a midget team in Verdun called Norman's Spartons (not Spartans). The team was sponsored by Norman Bracegirdle who owned a local appliance store. Led by their star Camille Henry, the Spartons won the provincial finals and were the champions of Quebec. To this day, Dryden writes, Bowman speaks about this championship team just as often and just as excitedly as he speaks about any of his nine Stanley Cups.

A month after they won the championship, Ken Brown, a local man from Verdun, was recruiting players for a new midget team sponsored by the Canadiens, the Verdun Canadiens. Sam Pollock had hired Brown to put the team together. Brown got in touch with Scotty Bowman and promised Scotty new hockey pants and gloves if he signed with them, along with a standing room pass to watch the Canadiens any time he wanted. Scotty signed the contract, and now he was property of the Montreal Canadiens organization.

He played for the Verdun Canadiens midget team, then the Verdun Canadiens Junior B team, then the Montreal Canadiens Junior A team, all as property of the Canadiens organization.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Here’s a blog post that goes into detail on the relationship between the NHL teams and amateur talent.

Historical Hockey Stats & Trivia: The Sponsorship System - The Pre-Expansion NHL's Monopsony on Players

One key point is that if a player chose to play for a junior team or league that was sponsored by an NHL club, his NHL rights were held by that club. This may be the source of the myth that the Canadiens held territorial rights. They held the rights to over 300 players through the dozens of teams they sponsored, not just in Quebec but across Canada. Other NHL teams also sponsored junior clubs in Quebec as there was no territorial restriction. But nobody sponsored as many teams as Montreal. They were willing to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars to maintain their junior network and have a pipeline of players to allow them to stay at the top of the league standings year after year.

The sponsorship of junior clubs was the main differentiator between NHL teams in acquiring amateur talent. Boston, for one, was unwilling to spend in this area until Walter Brown died and Weston Adams took over in 1964.

This is tremendous information.

Do we have a list of which junior teams were attached to which pro team? Was every junior team sponsored, or were some "outlaw" teams?

 

[overpass]

This is tremendous information.

Do we have a list of which junior teams were attached to which pro team? Was every junior team sponsored, or were some "outlaw" teams?

I can post at least some of the junior teams. The Dryden/Bowman book has a fair bit of information because Scotty Bowman was involved in the system as a player and then a scout and a coach.

The Canadiens had the Montreal Junior Canadiens (later the Ottawa-Hull Junior Canadiens) for Quebec, the Peterborough Petes for Ontario, and the Regina Pats for the west.

 

[overpass]

I can post at least some of the junior teams. The Dryden/Bowman book has a fair bit of information because Scotty Bowman was involved in the system as a player and then a scout and a coach.

The Canadiens had the Montreal Junior Canadiens (later the Ottawa-Hull Junior Canadiens) for Quebec, the Peterborough Petes for Ontario, and the Regina Pats for the west.

Here's a more complete list. I'm pulling this from the Dryden/Bowman book, I'm sure there's more information out there elsewhere.

Montreal Canadiens
Quebec: Montreal Junior Canadiens, later moved to Ottawa-Hull
Ontario: Peterborough Petes, Fort William Canadiens (Fort William was later joined with Port Arthur to create the city of Thunder Bay).
Manitoba: St. Boniface Canadiens
Saskatchewan: Regina Pats

These were the Ontario teams for the other NHL clubs.

Boston Bruins
Barrie Flyers, later Niagara Falls

New York Rangers
Guelph Platers

Detroit Red Wings
Hamilton Red Wings

Chicago Black Hawks
St Catharines Black Hawks

Toronto Maple Leafs
St Michaels Majors, Toronto Marlboros