Can IIHF reffing be any worse?

[QnebO]

OT: To say in the start, refs didin't make Canada win last night. They would've won even if there was no referees or no matter who was the referee.

Last night, Aho was given penalty without any apparent reason. Canadian player came to hit aho, but fell himself as aho countered the contact. Aho got the penalty, some how, without any reason from hockey rulebook.

Captain of Team Finland, Kukkonen went to ask what was the penalty for. The Referee answered with **** you's and swearing other low terms. According to MTV news, said the f-u at least three times.

Then Kukkonen said to ref: "Relax, I'm just asking what was the penalty for".

After that, ref gave Kukkonen 10 minute penalty without hesitation. The ref who just himself sweared and used the words that usually give 10 minute penalty. Gives a player 10 minute penalty, who doesn't swear or shout. Situation that couldn't ever happen in Liiga. Ref breaks the rules himself basically, and judges some player for it. Insecure amateur ref probably realized his mistake, and this was his respond, this is how he dealth with it.

http://www.is.fi/mmkiekko/art-2000005213906.html


I've been saying along this tournament, the reffing is very bad. I would myself do way better job, than these current refs, 100% guaranteed. These current tournament refs do not even truly know the hockey rules, or anything about reffing them. Of course if you ask them, do they know the rules, they lie yes, but the show on ice shows that they do not even know the rules. They don't know what's clean check and whats not. They don't know how serious problem is slashing to hands for example in relation to a clean check. This is a serious problem.

Last night we saw Marner and Aho get slashed trought the game, so that even the sticks even broke when slashing, marner got his face cut ect. These refs didin't whistle anything for 90%. They whistled penalties for clean checks, waved off a good goal without review and let the game out of control by non-calling slashing. It was miracle that no one got injured. Aho and Marner seemed to be targeted for slashing, and it was 100% refs fault. They let that get out of their hands. They didin't care to whistle penalties for wicked slashes. Instead, they gave penalties with logics that seemed to be based on random number generator. Some times penalty for something, some times not and some times penalty for something that is not even illegal in rules. And some times trash talking for players and then giving 10 minute penalty for player, when you should basically cooldown yourself.

And that was just a one game. These refs are always as bad.

Only countries that have some-what legitimate refs outside NHL refs are Finland and Russia. Only refs from those two countries should be allowed to enter the Arena for now in my opinion. Finnish Liiga refs, I call them jackasses myself, BUT, they're professional copared to IIHF tournament refs, who truly do not know how to do their job. KHL's best refs, very good.

Anyways, if not that is changed, somethings gotta be done. Some people don't understand the seriousnes of problem, but basically these refs makes games outcome way more random, injuries way more likely - so it harms the game to have incompetent idiots, who aren't capable to follow the speed of game, don't know the rules and can't even keep their cool against the players.

There must be some kind of new rule that is forced against the refs. All refs need to be miced up every second of game and intermission, their every call should be evaluated. If there is more than 3 mistakes, they'd pay a fine or something, and after five games with 3 errors or more, ban them from reffing high level for a while. Would make those idiots ref by the book instead of letting their emotions win them and give penalties as a personal attack ect, like provenly happened last night.

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[Tomas W]

I usually doesnt complain, but this year have been a circus with the reffs as clowns. Mistake after mistake after mistake. And apparently they missed an obvious offside in the LAT - GER too. It really stinks.

And they gave Sweden a delay of the game penalty in the second period, against the Slovaks, despite that the Swedes were told to await the ice to freeze, before stepping in. What the f was that about? That whole game was terribly one sided reffed, with Sweden going to the penalty box every second minute, despite dominating and controllig the puck. How is that even possible?

 

[LiveeviL]

Sweden being told to stay on the locker room and then getting a penalty for being late to the ice was a good one too.

 

[scipio]

Then Kukkonen said to ref: "Relax, I'm just asking what was the penalty for". [...]

And that was just a one game. These refs are always as bad.

Only countries that have some-what legitimate refs outside NHL refs are Finland and Russia. [...]

Anyways, if not that is changed, somethings gotta be done. Some people don't understand the seriousnes of problem, but basically these refs makes games outcome way more random, injuries way more likely - so it harms the game to have incompetent idiots, who aren't capable to follow the speed of game, don't know the rules and can't even keep their cool against the players.

How do we know that the story Kukkonen tells is correct? Did he insult the ref himself in the first place? We don't know.

I agree that the refs made some questionable decisions throughout the tournament. But not only the refs, as well the IIHF/organizers was/were not always on top of the game.

Given your understanding of hockey rules as exemplified in the Finland vs Switzerland thread, I'm not sure if you are very neutral and objective when it comes to refs in general

 

[QnebO]

How do we know that the story Kukkonen tells is correct? Did he insult the ref himself in the first place? We don't know.

There was replays, so lip reading and he's body language.

If Kukkonen wouldn't speak truth, IIHF would probably claim that he lies. It's obvious that he speaks the truth.

Given your understanding of hockey rules as exemplified in the Finland vs Switzerland thread, I'm not sure if you are very neutral and objective when it comes to refs in general

I have selected to not stay silent on any reffing mistake. In swiss game, I said many times there was mistakes other way, too. Example Ohtamaa's Dive. The refs blew both ways.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Reffing wasn't that bad

 

[scipio]

There was replays, so lip reading and he's body language.

If Kukkonen wouldn't speak truth, IIHF would probably claim that he lies. It's obvious that he speaks the truth.

I'm not convinced that we know the full story. Are there actual reports of lip reading? Did somebody do that? It's not unlikely that the ref insulted the player - but we don't know what Kukkonen exactly said to him.

I have selected to not stay silent on any reffing mistake. In swiss game, I said many times there was mistakes other way, too. Example Ohtamaa's Dive. The refs blew both ways.

You were complaining the whole game how Swiss players were diving, even after clear cross-checks or when they just simply tripped and fell without getting any penalty. In fact the only clear ref mistake in this game was the 2+10 against Ambühl for a clean hit. It's true you said that Ohtamaa dived ("More of this please. Swiss dived the whole game."), but that was as well a really obvious one.

I don't blame you for being biased. We all are to a certain degree due to our emotions when rooting for our teams. But after all in that game the refs were not that terrible.

 

[QnebO]

You were complaining the whole game how Swiss players were diving, even after clear cross-checks or when they just simply tripped and fell without getting any penalty. In fact the only clear ref mistake in this game was the 2+10 against Ambühl for a clean hit. It's true you said that Ohtamaa dived ("More of this please. Swiss dived the whole game."), but that was as well a really obvious one.

I don't blame you for being biased. We all are to a certain degree due to our emotions when rooting for our teams. But after all in that game the refs were not that terrible.

I was calling Ohtamaas Dive good, and wanted more diving from our team, because refs seemed to buy every another dive. It wasn't really more obvious than some of swiss dives. When the ref is not competent, diving starts. Players will exploit everything refs let them to exploit, and also have retaliation mentality. Thats why Canada game looked like slashing war.

KHL refs call 2min for diving pretty frequently. Saw those in liiga playoffs too. Never see those calls from generic-iihf refs.

About bias.. Watching hockey is emotion to me. After the games, I tend to think which things my team did bad and be critical, and think how it could improve. During games, I mostly go with emotion. Of course, I follow or "scout" individual players and how they do also, and give crap+kudos for my teams players. Emotion is really what hockey game is all about to me.. No matter if im in beer league game as a player or watching my teams game.

[MOD]

 

[mattihp]

Say what you want about Kukkonen, but he is a trusworthy, humble and down to the earth kind of guy. He has no reason to lie and it would be greatly out of his character.

 

[Eisen]

They let an awful lot of stick fouls go, especially at the beginning of the tournament.

 

[Past Considerations]

I've been saying along this tournament, the reffing is very bad. I would myself do way better job, than these current refs, 100% guaranteed. These current tournament refs do not even truly know the hockey rules, or anything about reffing them. Of course if you ask them, do they know the rules, they lie yes, but the show on ice shows that they do not even know the rules. They don't know what's clean check and whats not. They don't know how serious problem is slashing to hands for example in relation to a clean check. This is a serious problem.

Sure you would do a better job. What a hyperbole.

There must be some kind of new rule that is forced against the refs. All refs need to be miced up every second of game and intermission, their every call should be evaluated. If there is more than 3 mistakes, they'd pay a fine or something, and after five games with 3 errors or more, ban them from reffing high level for a while. Would make those idiots ref by the book instead of letting their emotions win them and give penalties as a personal attack ect, like provenly happened last night.

Direct fining simply WILL NOT work and would be only detrimental, because then the refs will attempt to call even less penalties, since a wrong call means a fine - but you can't fine a call that was never made, so better to play it safe and not call anything.

 

[Past Considerations]

I don't think it's anything to do with political correctness but this is where the problem lies. IIHF likes to use refs from as many countries as possible and the ones from the bigger countries have to "take turns" to have their chance at international level.

What they should be doing is just using the very best referees outside of the NHL/AHL (who are still in their season) for international tournaments at all levels and age groups. Obviously you still need enough different nationalities to have enough neutral refs for the top division games, but it's still possible to have competent referees, you just need to have more from the bigger countries. I watch a lot of the lower level tournaments that Great Britain plays in (u18/u20 and senior men) and some of the officiating is dreadful because they use referees from smaller countries who are of a similar level, when they should be having better referees from countries like Sweden and Russia. I would rather have the worst ref in the KHL than some guy from Hungary, they'll still be better.

+1.

Also I wonder if the problem more that they rotate the refs too much, or that they select the same ones again and again who have performed badly in previous tournaments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_IIHF_World_Championship#Officials

Mark Lemelin is an American, not sure why he is under Austrian flag in that list (he officiates in the Austrian league).

 

[QnebO]

Sure you would do a better job. What a hyperbole.


Direct fining simply WILL NOT work and would be only detrimental, because then the refs will attempt to call even less penalties, since a wrong call means a fine - but you can't fine a call that was never made, so better to play it safe and not call anything.

I dont believe that fining will take place for various reasons, but it could work. You could definitely fine or punish also from non-calls. The evaluation would had to be made by an official "video referee comitee", something like Toronto in NHL. That party would also check the in-game unclear goal scoring situations. That comitee should have lots of high level (NHL) experience and of course, you wouldn't fine / punish for every little mistake. But blatant non calls could be provable, there is rules in hockey and if they're clearly broke and some one gets injured or the game gets affected way too much other way, there could be sanction on non-call. Sanctions wouldn't have to be the level that truly makes referee suffer financially, but it would add control. They could be also used to evaluate, which referees are the best and who to select in important games ect.

 

[krax]

I've been saying along this tournament, the reffing is very bad. I would myself do way better job, than these current refs, 100% guaranteed.

What keeps you from starting a reffing career? With your talent you could probably start reffing right at international A level, without spending years in the minor leagues.

 

[Spender]

Should only have refs from the highest leagues in the top hockey nations. It's ridiculous to have these amateurs not knowing what they're doing.

 

[QnebO]

What keeps you from starting a reffing career?

Lack of Experience in pro hockey.

 

[BruinLVGA]

How do we know that the story Kukkonen tells is correct? Did he insult the ref himself in the first place? We don't know.

I agree that the refs made some questionable decisions throughout the tournament. But not only the refs, as well the IIHF/organizers was/were not always on top of the game.

Given your understanding of hockey rules as exemplified in the Finland vs Switzerland thread, I'm not sure if you are very neutral and objective when it comes to refs in general

You put it VERY mildly.

 

[scipio]

You put it VERY mildly.

I'm Swiss, at least I have to try to remain neutral

 

[Bloomfield*]

Reffing is worst i ever seen

 

[Braunbaer]

Should only have refs from the highest leagues in the top hockey nations.

Yeah, they're doing great in the NHL.

 

[krax]

Lack of Experience in pro hockey.

That sure might help, but it's not a mandatory criterion. You should give it a try. Everybody starts at the bottom. Depending on what you bring to the table you climb up the ladder faster or slower.

 

[sandysan]

Yeah, they're doing great in the NHL.

you might not like how the rules are enforced in the NHL, but even in the playoffs they are consistent, we dont have phantom calls that decide games or linesmen or refs who struggle to keep up with the pace.

IIHF reffing has always, always been a complete crapshoot and its unfair to throw a lot of these guys out there to the lions where despite their best intentions by 10 mins into the game you know that the next 50 mins are going to be a dumpster fire.

As for the alleged back and forth, my guess is that in most leagues if you had a player tell a linesman " you can't talk to me that way" that's going to provoke a response pretty much every single time. Have you heard how the players talk to each other and to the refs on the ice ????? its not Sunday school out there as gordie howe pointed out.

 

[Past Considerations]

I dont believe that fining will take place for various reasons, but it could work. You could definitely fine or punish also from non-calls. The evaluation would had to be made by an official "video referee comitee", something like Toronto in NHL. That party would also check the in-game unclear goal scoring situations. That comitee should have lots of high level (NHL) experience and of course, you wouldn't fine / punish for every little mistake. But blatant non calls could be provable, there is rules in hockey and if they're clearly broke and some one gets injured or the game gets affected way too much other way, there could be sanction on non-call. Sanctions wouldn't have to be the level that truly makes referee suffer financially, but it would add control. They could be also used to evaluate, which referees are the best and who to select in important games ect.

And what you first suggested was this:

"If there is more than 3 mistakes, they'd pay a fine or something, and after five games with 3 errors or more, ban them from reffing high level for a while."

 

[Past Considerations]

Lack of Experience in pro hockey.

But at the same time this makes you better than those who have experience in pro hockey?

 

[Past Considerations]

Should only have refs from the highest leagues in the top hockey nations. It's ridiculous to have these amateurs not knowing what they're doing.

Are most refs even in top European leagues fully pros?