C Mikhail Grigorenko (2012, 12th, BUF; traded to COL) IV

[stokes84]

If Buffalo had been patient with him but not making him play where he wasn't ready, he'd be just another youngster doing great in his first NHL camp as a pro...

He gained like 15 lbs this summer and seems to be faster. He's still developing. The **** about his age made people forget he's still a prospect in development.

Yes and no to this. It seems that he did a lot of soul searching after the past two seasons of failure in the NHL and made the decision to put in the work. Without that adversity, would he still be the lazy prospect he was when he first started? I think you can credit his dedication to the fact that he has now experienced failure. So, while the easy take is that Buffalo screwed up, it may have been the best thing to happen to him.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Stokes put it perfectly. Grigorenko doesn't improve without failure

 

[SergeConstantin74]

Yes and no to this. It seems that he did a lot of soul searching after the past two seasons of failure in the NHL and made the decision to put in the work. Without that adversity, would he still be the lazy prospect he was when he first started? I think you can credit his dedication to the fact that he has now experienced failure. So, while the easy take is that Buffalo screwed up, it may have been the best thing to happen to him.

He has never been lazy in his off ice training since he's in NA, at least, never heard of it. Roy even praised his work ethic off ice when he was his coach. He pretty much did the same thing last year. He doesn't go back to Russia, he just trains here.

But I agree that his failures might help him grow as a player and work on his issues.

 

[pigpen65]

Yes and no to this. It seems that he did a lot of soul searching after the past two seasons of failure in the NHL and made the decision to put in the work. Without that adversity, would he still be the lazy prospect he was when he first started? I think you can credit his dedication to the fact that he has now experienced failure. So, while the easy take is that Buffalo screwed up, it may have been the best thing to happen to him.

Looking better suited to the NHL at 20 than 18 isn't due to more dedication. There was no failure. Buffalo didn't screw up. There wasn't even that much adversity. What you wrote you made up.

 

[ZeroPT*]

Looking better suited to the NHL at 20 than 18 isn't due to more dedication. There was no failure. Buffalo didn't screw up. There wasn't even that much adversity. What you wrote you made up.

What? He added weight, got faster,bigger,stronger and improved his skating. Had he stayed in junior for 2 years instead of Buffalo, he wouldn't have done those things.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

What? He added weight, got faster,bigger,stronger and improved his skating. Had he stayed in junior for 2 years instead of Buffalo, he wouldn't have done those things.

Why couldn't he have done those things while being sent back in junior without forfeiting 2 years of his ELC? His weaknesses were known even before playing NHL and it's not like he started training just this year. And Buffalo could evaluate him before his contract kicked in. Training and developing, it's a process every junior player go through. Buffalo didn't manage him well but it doesn't mean they screwed up forever. Every junior follower knew he wasn't ready at 18. Fans and Buffalo management just looked at his stats sheets.

 

[pigpen65]

What? He added weight, got faster,bigger,stronger and improved his skating. Had he stayed in junior for 2 years instead of Buffalo, he wouldn't have done those things.

As stated just a couple posts before, dedication was never an issue for Grigorenko. That he didn't tear up the league his first two years doesn't automatically point to a lack of dedication being the issue. Samson isn't tearing anything up. Is it because he's not dedicated?

 

[pigpen65]

Why couldn't he have done those things while being sent back in junior without forfeiting 2 years of his ELC? His weaknesses were known even before playing NHL and it's not like he started training just this year. And Buffalo could evaluate him before his contract kicked in. Training and developing, it's a process every junior player go through. Buffalo didn't manage him well but it doesn't mean they screwed up forever. Every junior follower knew he wasn't ready at 18. Fans and Buffalo management just looked at his stats sheets.

Most of this is accurate but it's a little bit oversimplified. Buffalo was in desperate need to center help. His first year was the lockout year. Buffalo decided to keep him without the full evaluation. I think that year it was only 4 or 5 games they got to keep him up instead of the regular 9. Ultimately they chose wrong, as he wasn't ready, but there were some extenuating circumstances. Part 2 you nailed. People keep saying Buffalo screwed up him or his development. That's obviously completely wrong or else we wouldn't be having this conversation. His development has been fine. He was never screwed up. The ONLY issue is his ELC kicking in early, which quite frankly isn't even that big of a deal. He gets a 2nd contract a couple years earlier than he should have. Who cares? Fans aren't writing the checks.

 

[buttman*]

If Buffalo had been patient with him but not making him play where he wasn't ready, he'd be just another youngster doing great in his first NHL camp as a pro...

He gained like 15 lbs this summer and seems to be faster. He's still developing. The **** about his age made people forget he's still a prospect in development.

Guy is big, but he isn't fast.

 

[JRiz13]

Guy is big, but he isn't fast.

Who said he was fast? He is faster than before. Compared to his skating the last two years hes much faster.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I've been a fan of Grig's potential for some time now. Good to see him doing well in camp this fall.

 

[tsujimoto74]

Why couldn't he have done those things while being sent back in junior without forfeiting 2 years of his ELC? His weaknesses were known even before playing NHL and it's not like he started training just this year. And Buffalo could evaluate him before his contract kicked in. Training and developing, it's a process every junior player go through. Buffalo didn't manage him well but it doesn't mean they screwed up forever. Every junior follower knew he wasn't ready at 18. Fans and Buffalo management just looked at his stats sheets.

It's not that he couldn't have done those things in junior, it's that we don't think he would have. Grigorenko is a very skilled prospect, and up until experiencing the NHL, that alone was enough for him to be very successful. Those failures may have awakened him to just how much more there is to being a successful pro than being talented. He's like a brand new player now. He's stronger, he's more detail-oriented, he's competing hard in every area of the ice. Being "rushed" into the NHL hurt his stock/perceived value some, but I think it actually helped him as a player.

 

[Paxon]

So, he wil start the season in the AHL anyway?

Maybe. There's a third line spot with pretty solid wingers (Foligno and Stewart at the moment) open and the main contestants seem to be Reinhart, who is less ready than Grigorenko, Larsson, who was just concussed last night, and Torrey Mitchell, who in my opinion shouldn't even be a lock for the 4th line spots being fought for. Just by who appears most ready and deserving of it from camp it should be Grigorenko's spot, but they will surely consider what they think is best for his development as well as Reinhart's. At this point I'm leaning towards thinking he should get the spot, but if he starts out in the AHL getting top minutes that should be just fine for him.

As to the conversation about the mishandling, the most concrete damage done was in burning his ELC. What if he has a strong year in Buffalo and demands to get paid based solely on that, a la Johanssen (without as strong a season obviously), with the more legitimate leverage of the KHL (not that he wants to go there, but neither does RJ yet he's using the leverage, at least Grigorekno is Russian)? It could bite them a bit in that specific situation.

In terms of development I don't think it's harmed him. I did the tallies the other day and he had something like 70+ juniors games and 50+ NHL/AHL games the last two seasons. There were stretches in Buffalo where he was scratched or playing the fourth line but all things considered he got big ice time over a good number of juniors games, got ice and practice time with the pros, and played in two WJC's. I don't think he's been harmed any as he's grown tremendously in his off-puck play, board battles, driving to the net, etc, as well as his physicality which made him more effective in battles and a faster skater. That's not to say he developed this way specifically because of the exact circumstances he developed in, but it's possible, and at any rate it's hard to imagine he'd have developed any better if just left in juniors. That's not to say I don't think they mishandled him, because they did, but I think he's developed pretty much ideally despite that. The other area where he's been harmed, other than burning his ELC, is in perception and value, which shouldn't really matter. Hopefully in a few months he flips that perceptions league-wide, because he's a dedicated and extremely talented young player who deserves to be considered at least as highly as he was on draft day.

 

[stokes84]

He was interviewed on Sabres Hockey Hotline last week where he basically acknowledged that he needed an attitude overhaul, talking about it was nobody's fault but his own that he wasn't having success, and that he regretted complaing about ice time and linemate. I can't give a link because I am on mobile.

 

[start winnin]

If you watched him last year and compared him to this year, you would think he was two different players. His compete level is much higher, he's quicker, stronger on pucks, all that jazz. I remember one particular moment where he was trying to beat the Leafs' defender to the puck and he was skating so fast I didn't think it was him.

Obviously it's just preseason and it really means nothing, but his progress is definitely encouraging to see, the kid isn't even old enough to drink.

 

[Paxon]

If you watched him last year and compared him to this year, you would think he was two different players. His compete level is much higher, he's quicker, stronger on pucks, all that jazz. I remember one particular moment where he was trying to beat the Leafs' defender to the puck and he was skating so fast I didn't think it was him.

Obviously it's just preseason and it really means nothing, but his progress is definitely encouraging to see, the kid isn't even old enough to drink.

Game one I was definitely checking the jersey number every shift. He's no trailblazer but he now moves more than well enough for his size with some room for improvement. I thought he looked good in a lot of the areas you mentioned as the season went on (especially when in Rochester at the end) but it's been further improved upon over the offseason and then amplified by his physical gains. We'll see how things hold up when he hits rough patches whichever league he's in, but there are some pretty clear changes to his game that aren't just a preseason fluke, particularly starting with what improved strength and conditioning allows him to do and allows him to be confident in.

 

[FamilyGuy716]

Said it before and I'll say it again. Bust.

I said the same thing but I think I'm going to have to eat my words (gladly). He's a changed man. Put on 20 lbs of muscle and his compete level has done a 180. He's also skating much better. All this with his ridiculous skill set probably means he'll be successful top 6 forward in the NHL.

 

[SergeConstantin74]

I said the same thing but I think I'm going to have to eat my words (gladly). He's a changed man. Put on 20 lbs of muscle and his compete level has done a 180. He's also skating much better. All this with his ridiculous skill set probably means he'll be successful top 6 forward in the NHL.

I'd be surprised if it was true. He can improve it but that much?

 

[Moskau]

If Buffalo had been patient with him but not making him play where he wasn't ready, he'd be just another youngster doing great in his first NHL camp as a pro...

He gained like 15 lbs this summer and seems to be faster. He's still developing. The **** about his age made people forget he's still a prospect in development.

Pretty much this. If Grigorenko had 0 pts in 0 NHL games he would be looked at as a top 15 prospect likely. If Buffalo was a Canadian market all you would have been hearing about the past month was what a great Summer he had.

 

[kp61c]

He was interviewed on Sabres Hockey Hotline last week where he basically acknowledged that he needed an attitude overhaul, talking about it was nobody's fault but his own that he wasn't having success, and that he regretted complaing about ice time and linemate. I can't give a link because I am on mobile.

and? looks like he says what all around want him to say. i wouldn't jump to conclusions here.

 

[Moskau]

Here come the Russian posters who hate Grigorenko because he came over to the NA to develop and it "ruined him".

 

[FamilyGuy716]

I'd be surprised if it was true. He can improve it but that much?

Really?

OK... to be exact for all the ******* nitpickers, his compete level has improved 33.28456778%

Is that better?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Here come the Russian posters who hate Grigorenko because he came over to the NA to develop and it "ruined him".

Any actual evidence that there are those claiming this in the thread, or are you wildly speculating?

 

[Paxon]

I'd be surprised if it was true. He can improve it but that much?

It depends how you look at it. I've always maintained that he simply lacked the confidence to go skate into puck battles and engage convincingly, somewhat rightly because he did not have the foot speed to get there on time and he did not have the strength to be effective. I've believed that if he adds the strength and improves his skating that we might just see he already has it in him to be effective off the puck. I do think he's probably learned that every area of the game is as important as offense and learned a lot of specifics about what each situation requires, as most players his age have, but I think the biggest difference is simply the confidence that experience and strength have given him. So, I think his mental drive to compete has improved a bit but not a lot -- it was there, he just couldn't/didn't know how to apply it. The results though really are a 180.

At the NHL level, especially in season one, he was extremely hesitant to get into the corners, he was too reliant on his stick in open ice and near the boards, going flat-footed to reach with his stick. He's strong with his stick due to its length and his hand-eye coordination but he had to learn that you have to keep your feet moving and use a variety of approaches (like taking the body). As I said, I think a lot of it was his inability to get where he wanted on time with his skating, and I think he knew he would lose in the corners against most players, so he tried to stand back and pick off the puck after the player peeled off the boards instead. A lot of this improved a bit at the beginning of last season with the Sabres, just not enough for him to earn regular ice time. It further improved very noticeably when he was up in Rochester after the Remparts' season ended, where his lack of skating was a bit less limiting than it was in the NHL, where he looked like a player who had learned a lot over the course of the season. This off-season was a gamechanger. Whether he's in the NHL or not come game 1, he's developed on and off the ice to the point where he looks like an NHLer waiting to break through, like other top prospects who're between the AHL and NHL, as opposed to a highly skilled player who might one day develop into an NHLer.

 

[Paxon]

Long highlights from last night's game if anyone wants to see him in action. It was a really entertaining game for both sides, save for unfortunate injuries to Franson, Kaleta, and Larsson.