C Mathew Barzal - Seattle Thunderbirds, WHL (2015, 16th, NYI) II

[KidLine93]

Pretty much this and the Oilers should have drafted him, instead of going for the quick fix right now with Reinhart who is a stretch anyways.

That being said Barzal is going to need to become more of a threat on actual goal scoring as his pass first mentality will limit the vast potential he has.

Oilers lost that trade value wise, and many cringed on the day it was made.

But the oilers should have moved Barzal for a D at some point.

He would be stuck on our 3rd or 4th line behind RNH,McDavid,Draisaitl

 

[Juxtaposer]

Oilers lost that trade value wise, and many cringed on the day it was made.

But the oilers should have moved Barzal for a D at some point.

He would be stuck on our 3rd or 4th line behind RNH,McDavid,Draisaitl

Barzal would have made a great trade chip, or back-up on Draisaitl if you traded RNH.

 

[First Blood]

His style is pretty similar to Krejci, but Barzal has more of a bite to him

If he pans out and hits his max potential he can be a top 6 center on any team, a sound 2nd line center.

 

[KidLine93]

Barzal would have made a great trade chip, or back-up on Draisaitl if you traded RNH.

exactly. Barzal dropped at the draft (basically steal territory) and will only increase his value over the next year or 2.

Some team will be looking for a high potential center and I'm sure the oilers could have gotten more than a 3rd pairing guy for Barzal and a 2nd eventually.

Just hoping Reinhart turns into a reliable 2nd pairing guy

 

[93LEAFS]

I'm just wondering how many of these consensus steals (aka Bob Mackenzie readers), actually turn out that way. I remember how big a steal Esposito was? There has to be a legitimate reason so many teams before the Bruins (who did 3 times) passed on him.

 

[boredmale]

I remember how big a steal Esposito was?

From my memories Esposito was a falling star going into his draft and 2007 was considered rather weak. Even though he was rated like 8th in 2007 it's not the same as being rated 9th or 10th last year. I think it was a basic case that it wasn't really surprising he dropped and teams decided to take their chances elsewhere

Here is a thread I dug up from about 3 months before the 2007 draft. As you can see there wasn't much excitement for him as a prospect, most viewed it as a swing for the fences type pick

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=355429&highlight=esposito

There has to be a legitimate reason so many teams before the Bruins (who did 3 times) passed on him.

Barzal was projected to go like 6th-12th so it's basically only 2 teams that didn't take him after that range that range(Dallas(12) and Boston(13,14,15)).

I'm just wondering how many of these consensus steals (aka Bob Mackenzie readers), actually turn out that way.

Getlzlaf and Parise are probably the 2 top 10 fallers that stick out. You can Add Fowler and Forsberg(he fell from top 5 to 11) to the list.

The jury is still out on Teuvo Teravainen

 

[93LEAFS]

From my memories Esposito was a falling star going into his draft and 2007 was considered rather weak. Even though he was rated like 9th or 10th in 2007 it's not the same as being rated 9th or 10th last year. I think it was a basic case that it wasn't really surprising he dropped and teams decided to take their chances elsewhere



Barzal was projected to go like 6th-12th so it's basically only 2 teams that didn't take him after that range that range(Dallas(12) and Boston(13,14,15)).




Getlzlaf and Parise are probably the 2 top 10 fallers that stick out. You can Add Fowler and Forsberg(he fell from top 5 to 11) to the list

True, I just remember how many times people said we got a steal with Finn in the 2nd round because of his Mackenzie ranking or in the Forsberg draft it being applied to Grigorenko or in the Fowler draft that Gormley was a steal. These teams have professional scouts and do their due diligence, obviously they make mistakes sometimes, just don't like the he was a steal narrative less than 6 months after the draft.

I like Barzal as a prospect, I just hate the narrative that he was a steal because he slipped a bit, but all fanbases do this. The only time I think its true is when guys like Tarasenko and Kuznetsov slipped only because of the KHL factor. Barzal's good and can end up a top 5 guy from the draft, but its way too early to say he was a steal and other teams messed up passing on him.

 

[boredmale]

True, I just remember how many times people said we got a steal with Finn in the 2nd round because of his Mackenzie ranking or in the Forsberg draft it being applied to Grigorenko or in the Fowler draft that Gormley was a steal. These teams have professional scouts and do their due diligence, obviously they make mistakes sometimes, just don't like the he was a steal narrative less than 6 months after the draft.

Everybody expected Grigorenko to drop, infact when Buffalo picked him it was almost surprising he didn't drop as far as most people predicted(I remember many saying they wouldn't even use a first rounder on him because he is "lazy"). I think Grigorenko sort of was like Esposito in that you wouldn't be surprised if somebody took a chance on them in the top 10 or if they fell to 25th depending on what team is picking(both guys were highly skilled with their share of warts)

As for Gormey, that is fair. If you consider Fowler a dropper, Gormley was rated top 5 as well that year and was picked 1 spot after Fowler so fair is fair

The only time I think its true is when guys like Tarasenko and Kuznetsov slipped only because of the KHL factor. Barzal's good and can end up a top 5 guy from the draft, but its way too early to say he was a steal and other teams messed up passing on him.

This might sound stupid but I probably would consider it more of a slipping if 3 different teams passed on him instead of the Bruins 3 times. As I said if you go on the assumption Barzal should have went 6-12, only 2 teams didn't take him when he was the last player of those 12 guys left

 

[93LEAFS]

Everybody expected Grigorenko to drop, infact when Buffalo picked him it was almost surprising he didn't drop as far as most people predicted. lol

As for Gormey, that is fair. If you consider Fowler a dropper, Gormley was rated top 5 as well that year and was picked 1 spot after Fowler so fair is fair



This might sound stupid but I probably would consider it more of a slipping if 3 different teams passed on him instead of the Bruins 3 times. As I said if you go on the assumption Barzal should have went 6-12, only 2 teams didn't take him when he was the last player of those 12 guys left

Pretty much in agreement on this, Boston caused Barzal and Connor to slip more than people expected. Bruins clearly had a different board to what people expected, I would really love to hear Boston's reasoning. I'll admit the Grigorenko fall had some weird aspects to it (alleged to of been taken off teams board because they thought he was an age cheat), but even up to the draft some of the writers had him as a top 5 or 8 guy ane people were shocker when guys like Slater Koekkoek (and even Lindholm and Pouliot) went ahead of him.

 

[Zaddy]

I'm just wondering how many of these consensus steals (aka Bob Mackenzie readers), actually turn out that way. I remember how big a steal Esposito was? There has to be a legitimate reason so many teams before the Bruins (who did 3 times) passed on him.

Generally I'd agree with this sentiment but I think Barzal only fell due to his injury and playing on a pretty bad Seattle team so his numbers wasn't as big as people wanted them to be. I mean, I don't know if that was the reason why teams passed on him but I'd assume so. Thing is, if you watched him after he came back from the injury, both in the U18's and the rest of the season in Seattle you could see just how good he was. I guess for some scouts they had already made up their mind by then and wasn't willing to change their rankings of him. So I don't know if there really was a "legitimate" reason why he fell. Most of the time, however, I'd agree that there is legitimate reasons why someone falls that the public just don't know about. Case in point: Ryan Pilon.

 

[Darth Milbury]

Parise was the poster child for that players that fell. There are players like that almost every year. A minor example is Casey Czikas, our fourth line center and stud pk'er who fell because of legal problems.

The best example in hockey history, imo, is Brian Propp. Projected top 10, fell due to the incredible depth of that draft, and when on to become an elite winger.

The stuff about Barzal falling is not really that relevant though. He likely would have gone a few shots earlier if not for Boston, but so what? Point is that he is a mid first round pick who developed nicely since then and whose stock appears to be rising.

 

[Felix Unger]

Parise was the poster child for that players that fell. There are players like that almost every year.

Steve Bernier:Zach Parise as Zach Senyshyn:Matt Barzal

 

[First Blood]

I wonder if it had to do with the knee injury, when he fractured his knee cap or whatever. Maybe that turned scouts/GM's off

Idk, but it is not bothering him this year

 

[Darth Milbury]

I wonder if it had to do with the knee injury, when he fractured his knee cap or whatever. Maybe that turned scouts/GM's off

Idk, but it is not bothering him this year

Or, he just wasn't as good a prospect as some of the other kiddies in his draft year. It was a strong draft.

 

[93LEAFS]

I wonder if it had to do with the knee injury, when he fractured his knee cap or whatever. Maybe that turned scouts/GM's off

Idk, but it is not bothering him this year

Maybe Boston's medical team flagged it but who knows, they also caused Kyle Connor to slip who didn't have these issues.

 

[Jester9881]

He's considered a steal because of what he's doing after being drafted. The guy is posting 2ppg. What did Gormley do? Grigorenko? Fowler IMO was a steal.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

Or, he just wasn't as good a prospect as some of the other kiddies in his draft year. It was a strong draft.

I would say it was a strong draft more than anything else. As others have mentioned Barzal was hurt and he didn''t exactly play on a strong team last year. Sort of the same thing that happened to Crouse last year when Bennett was hurt.

I love fallers for this reason. Some come back years later to prove it was a mistake they were passed on.

One of the great Islanders of all time Mike Bossy was once overlooked.

 

[boredmale]

I would say it was a strong draft more than anything else. As others have mentioned Barzal was hurt and he didn''t exactly play on a strong team last year.

As I pointed out above the low end expectation for Barzal was to be picked 12th(you can even argue 13th if somebody like Kyle Connor better). All that happened was we got 2 teams that didn't believe Barzal was the 12th best player in the draft(or that their was other players who should be taken in the top 12 before the consensus top 12), it looks much worse on paper then it is because one of those 2 teams just happened to have 3 picks

 

[93LEAFS]

He's considered a steal because of what he's doing after being drafted. The guy is posting 2ppg. What did Gormley do? Grigorenko? Fowler IMO was a steal.

People were claiming Barzal was a steal before he even played a game this year. He's a great prospect, but lets wait a bit before we say he's the Fowler to Senyshyn's McIlraith. There's a chance he's a top 5 guy from the draft, there's also (I believe a way smaller one) that Gurianov, Zboril, DeBrusk and Senyshyn are better.

 

[SI90]

It was a deep draft mixed with a perfect storm. Barzal and Connor could have easily fgond higher but really they didn't free fall like a Fowler. Fowler was expected to go TOP 3-5

Barzal was expected to go between 6-15 range. It just happens to work out for the isles.

 

[Anthony Mauro]

This was an identity draft for Boston. The entire top ten was a stable group meaning Barzal not being picked doesn't need a reason. 11 and 12 were targets as BPA for Florida and Dallas - another sign there was nothing 'wrong' with Barzal.

Boston's collection was a group of preference not ability. Zboril's physicality, Senyshyn's speed, and DeBrusk's net presence all distinguished them vs. others. Against those players, Barzal is 'soft and small'. Simply not the direction they wanted to go.

Barzal is not a negatively charged faller. It's less about him having flaws, and more about things just landing the way they did.

 

[The Greatest 101]

This was an identity draft for Boston. The entire top ten was a stable group meaning Barzal not being picked doesn't need a reason. 11 and 12 were targets as BPA for Florida and Dallas - another sign there was nothing 'wrong' with Barzal.

Boston's collection was a group of preference not ability. Zboril's physicality, Senyshyn's speed, and DeBrusk's net presence all distinguished them vs. others. Against those players, Barzal is 'soft and small'. Simply not the direction they wanted to go.

Barzal is not a negatively charged faller. It's less about him having flaws, and more about things just landing the way they did.

It still doesn't explain why Boston past on Svechnikov.
GM can make mistakes when they are under pressure.People need to stop defending the indefensible.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

When has drafting for "need" over talent ever worked ? A skilled player will always be superior to a grinder.

 

[Zaddy]

This was an identity draft for Boston. The entire top ten was a stable group meaning Barzal not being picked doesn't need a reason. 11 and 12 were targets as BPA for Florida and Dallas - another sign there was nothing 'wrong' with Barzal.

Boston's collection was a group of preference not ability. Zboril's physicality, Senyshyn's speed, and DeBrusk's net presence all distinguished them vs. others. Against those players, Barzal is 'soft and small'. Simply not the direction they wanted to go.

Barzal is not a negatively charged faller. It's less about him having flaws, and more about things just landing the way they did.

Honestly the more I think about it the more I'm coming back to the conclusion that Boston screwed up. Also you just look at how this season has gone so far and which the guys who stand out are. Barzal and Chabot has both been terrific and Connor I have not seen play but he has good point totals so I'd assume he is doing quite well too. If Bruins had drafted those three guys they would've been set and would've had a very promising future even after Chara/Bergeron/Krejci.

It's not like you would've drafted three identical players or anything by going BPA there either. You would've gotten one really good playmaking centre in Barzal, one really quick, smart, point-producing guy who most likely ends up a winger in Connor and one hell of a d-man in Chabot. Basically you get 3 guys who all have excellent hockey IQ and mobility. Very hard to go wrong with that. It's not that the other three guys are bad or anything but not going BPA when there's such great talent available is head-scratching and a giant gamble. If I were Sweeney I would've been ecstatic to see all those three guys still on the board when you have 3 consecutive picks...

 

[Darth Milbury]

What Boston did at the draft was, indeed, curious. But, its not like Boston doesn't have a capable scouting staff. They likely saw something in the kids drafted that none of us have. My guess is that, in the end, their moves will not look all that bad.

Over the years, I've seen a lot of second guessing of team's drafts, and 90% of the time, the scouts turn out to win. As examples from Isles history, I can remember folk laughing when Snow took Okposo over Mueller, Bailey over Schenn and Filatov. There was also laughter when Snow moved up to take de Haan and Nelson. Scouts may know something that we don't.

The only aspect of the entire Barzal draft that I feel any need to gloat about relates to the manner in which the Reinhart trade was spun by some Oiler fans. There is this dialogue on the Oiler board suggesting that Reinhart was a great prospect, who was ruined by the Isles poor development system and failure to emphasize power skating. Of course, the Oilers system, which has done such a fantastic job with guys like Yak, is far superior. There is also a lot of snide remarks about how good Isles fans once thought Reinhart would be (ignoring all the Oilers fans who used to slag on Reinhart). If Barzal does work out and Reinhart fails, I would take pleasure laughing at that silliness.

My personal feeling though is, at the end of the day, the Bruins will get three good young players with their picks, Barzal will work out nicely, and Reinhart will be great for the Oil. Call me an optimist, but I predict everybody wins.