C Jiri Kulich - Rochester Americans, AHL (2022, 28th, BUF)

[Vasilevskiy]

Kulich's U18 and U20 tournaments are similar to an elite player. Quinn never did that.

Just no. McTavish's production was elite.

If Kurich's was elite what does that make of Kemell's?

 

[Belloco]

Just no.

World Championship U18 : MVP World championship U18
World Championship U20 : Best Czech U20 as U18 a front of Jiricek - does better than Hertl, Voracek, Krejci & Pastrnak, Vrana, etc... when they was U20.

Just yes.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

MVP World championship U18
Best Czech U20 a front of Jiricek - does better than Hertl and Pastrnak

Just yes.

Better than Jiricek who just had COVID a week before.
If 8 points in 7 games is elite what does that mean for McTavish? Generational?
I guess Kemell is the new Selanne if we go by the small sample size

 

[Belloco]

Better than Jiricek who just had COVID a week before.
If 8 points in 7 games is elite what does that mean for McTavish? Generational?
I guess Kemell is the new Selanne if we go by the small sample size

I just said he just did 2 elite quality tournaments.

A U18 tournament where he was voted MVP and a U20 tournament where he had the best Czech performance since Jaromir Jagr.

He did it, he did it, that's all.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Better than Jiricek who just had COVID a week before.
If 8 points in 7 games is elite what does that mean for McTavish? Generational?
I guess Kemell is the new Selanne if we go by the small sample size

Mctavish’s points were empty calories. Padded stats in blowout games in a tournament where the best players and teams didn’t even participate

 

[Bevans]

I just shook up the AHL U21 stat chart and there are very few players falling into his category as most only play a few games. Bordeleau for example, aligns 5 points in 3 games then will play in the NHL. Radulov only played 11 games, Kucherov & Getzlaf only 17, Perry 19. W.Nylander played in NHL up to U20. Cammalleri ok, but it was another generation, when the NHL fielded a majority of thirtys on the ice.

The player ranked after Jack Quinn according to the criteria retained is Liam Foudy. And you can see that Jack Quinn, despite all the points, has a negative presence on the ice. So talking about domination, in addition to the fact that his record during the playoffs was catastrophic, is completely false.

You said (about draft -1 player) : "Between his trajectory and shot volume he's starting to sound like a poor man's Jack Quinn."

You said (about draft + 2 players) : "We get it you over react to extremely small sample sizes. Let the kids play some hockey."

No misrepresentation.

I pointed out that they're both shoot-first Buffalo prospects, who raised their stock significantly in their draft year. Then you went off the rails.

You are re-ordering drafts every 15 minutes. When I saw the length of your post I was expecting a re-draft of the 2023 draft.

 

[Belloco]

I pointed out that they're both shoot-first Buffalo prospects, who raised their stock significantly in their draft year. Then you went off the rails.

You are re-ordering drafts every 15 minutes. When I saw the length of your post I was expecting a re-draft of the 2023 draft.

your only analysis was to evaluate in relation to the rank of draft, I told you that it was stupid because it evolved a lot.

Jack Quinn is the perfect example. If he had been born 4 days earlier, he might not have been selected in 2019. At best 6th-7th round. And that would not have changed anything at his level in 2019 as in 2022.

Kulich was not perceived as a Round 1 player until very late. If the draft had been done after this tournament, he would have been selected much sooner because the order of the boards would not have been the same as they were in June.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

Mctavish’s points were empty calories. Padded stats in blowout games in a tournament where the best players and teams didn’t even participate

Exactly, that was my point. Going by production in this tournament is misleading

 

[FlyguyOX]

Exactly, that was my point. Going by production in this tournament is misleading

Yeah but in combo with the WJC-18 it helps paint a picture of potential when playing against age-group peers.

 

[Belloco]

Exactly, that was my point. Going by production in this tournament is misleading

His argument was bogus.

But Kulich, beyond the points, was the best Czech player and his progress is impressive.

Going from Czech U17 to Extraliga in 2 years, going from 0pt to MVP of the U18 tournament in 1 year, producing more at U18 than the best Czech strikers when they were U20, his game against USA... when you combine these 4 performances, you can't say it's luck or a statistical incongruity.

When has this player disappointed in recent months? Never.

 

[Bevans]

your only analysis was to evaluate in relation to the rank of draft, I told you that it was stupid because it evolved a lot.

Jack Quinn is the perfect example. If he had been born 4 days earlier, he might not have been selected in 2019. At best 6th-7th round. And that would not have changed anything at his level in 2019 as in 2022.

Kulich was not perceived as a Round 1 player until very late. If the draft had been done after this tournament, he would have been selected much sooner because the order of the boards would not have been the same as they were in June.

And I thought this was going to be a 2024 re-draft.

As you said both would have gone later, but for their much improved draft year performance. Weird for you to call me stupid then reiterate what I was able to communicate in a sentence with several paragraphs.

His argument was bogus.

But Kulich, beyond the points, was the best Czech player and his progress is impressive.

Going from Czech U17 to Extraliga in 2 years, going from 0pt to MVP of the U18 tournament in 1 year, producing more at U18 than the best Czech strikers when they were U20... when you combine these 3 performances, you can't say it's luck or a statistical incongruity.

Fact of the matter is every single poster here is a huge kulich fan and you're acting like this is a witch hunt.

Are you Kulich's mother?

 

[Belloco]

And I thought this was going to be a 2024 re-draft.

As you said both would have gone later, but for their much improved draft year performance. Weird for you to call me stupid then reiterate what I was able to communicate in a sentence with several paragraphs.


Fact of the matter is every single poster here is a huge kulich fan and you're acting like this is a witch hunt.

Are you Kulich's mother?

What was the use of your message other than to despise me?

I let other users make up their minds about our exchange.

I have my opinion on that.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Draft rank does not mean player value. Many (podcast that i follow, me) thought Kulich was better than Ostlund before the tournament and I am one of them. Many also thought Quinn was an 8th-ranked reach.

Sportingly, Kulich's 2021/22 season is more significant than Quinn's 2020/21 season.

I'm sure if there was a redraft, Quinn wouldn't be 8 and Kulich would already be way over 28 after this tournament.

Kulich's U18 and U20 tournaments are similar to an elite player. Quinn never did that.

Kulich is a pretty bad passer, and in Quinn's D+2 season, he developed into quite the playmaker. They have a lot of differences. Quinn is notably better, and projects to have a far better career in the NHL.

 

[Bevans]

Kulich is a pretty bad passer, and in Quinn's D+2 season, he developed into quite the playmaker. They have a lot of differences. Quinn is notably better, and projects to have a far better career in the NHL.

D+1*. This is his D2 season coming up.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

D+1*. This is his D2 season coming up.

No, he played in the AHL for 15 games in his D+1 (2020-2021), then got 45 games in his D+2 (2021 - 2022). He's about to start his third seaosn after being drafted in 2020.

 

[Bevans]

No, he played in the AHL for 15 games in his D+1 (2020-2021), then got 45 games in his D+2 (2021 - 2022).

My bad.

 

[thrillhous]

Your stats don't mean anything because the best players go straight to the NHL in most cases and have never played in the AHL.

If Peterka plays in the AHL this year, he'll probably do better than Quinn. During the playoffs, he clearly seems to have eclipsed Quinn.

An exceptional player Peterka ?

You said it is not exceptional for a player to dominate the AHL at U21 like Quinn did. That was your statement. I showed you that it is not common at all, using Quinn as a basement for what constitutes dominance. Only a handful of players in the past 20 years had better U21 seasons. To be one of those players means it is by definition “exceptional”. An exception to the typical and expected. And more than that, as an added bonus that wasn’t even central to my point, all of the players listed went on to have exceptional NHL careers.

Now you shift the goalposts and say that your statement, that It is not exceptional for a player to dominate the AHL at U21, was a reference to players that didn’t play in the AHL? Or that you meant the player needs to be considered exceptional, rather than talking about their season itself?

That makes no sense and you clearly aren’t prepared to defend your statement earnestly so unless you acknowledge that your statement is incorrect (it clearly is) I am done with this discussion.

 

[cg98]

Your stats don't mean anything because the best players go straight to the NHL in most cases and have never played in the AHL.

If Peterka plays in the AHL this year, he'll probably do better than Quinn. During the playoffs, he clearly seems to have eclipsed Quinn.

An exceptional player Peterka ?

You may have had an argument up to this point. Now it's all been tossed out the window.

The AHL is the NHLs development pro league. It is not an easy league for any young player to play in. Look up a shit ton of the NHLs best players or young stars and you'll see quite a few of them played in the AHL before the NHL, a lot of them even had to play more than one year. Your argument is not valid.

 

[Belloco]

You said it is not exceptional for a player to dominate the AHL at U21 like Quinn did. That was your statement. I showed you that it is not common at all, using Quinn as a basement for what constitutes dominance. Only a handful of players in the past 20 years had better U21 seasons. To be one of those players means it is by definition “exceptional”. An exception to the typical and expected. And more than that, as an added bonus that wasn’t even central to my point, all of the players listed went on to have exceptional NHL careers.

Now you shift the goalposts and say that your statement, that It is not exceptional for a player to dominate the AHL at U21, was a reference to players that didn’t play in the AHL? Or that you meant the player needs to be considered exceptional, rather than talking about their season itself?

That makes no sense and you clearly aren’t prepared to defend your statement earnestly so unless you acknowledge that your statement is incorrect (it clearly is) I am done with this discussion.

I took a good look. In your retained statistics, the overwhelming majority of players selected in the 1st round are missing. What makes Quinn's season unique is the rarity of the situation, a 1st round prospect who does an entire season in the AHL at U21. The table is filled with examples of players who only played a few games before going to play in the NHL. As already said, I quoted Thomas Bordeleau who only played 3 games and who left for the NHL from U20. What is the list of players who have played in the AHL more than 10 games recently ?

Best players very rarely do this. Lafreniere, Mercer, Lundell, Hughes, Kakko, Dach, Cozens, Zegras, Caufield, Podkolzin, Boldy, Newhook, Krebs, McMichael, Tomasino, Kaliyev was in NHL at U21.

After the points that is not everything. Quinn was also constantly in negative presence on the ice (-28 in 70 games). His record in the playoffs is catastrophic.

Jiri Kulich's performance has become more impressive than that of Martin Necas... who was playing in the NHL at U21.

The original purpose was to contradict the Jack Quinn label of the poor. What had Jack Quinn done at Jiri Kulich's current age that Kulich hasn't done yet ? Nothing.

 

[Nikolajs Sillers]

No he can't 0% chance.

How you can now?

 

[GettingYourMoms]

How you can now?

I can see.

 

[FlyguyOX]

Kulich is a pretty bad passer, and in Quinn's D+2 season, he developed into quite the playmaker. They have a lot of differences. Quinn is notably better, and projects to have a far better career in the NHL.

Someone has never watched Kulich

 

[WhereAreTheCookies]

After the points that is not everything. Quinn was also constantly in negative presence on the ice (-28 in 70 games). His record in the playoffs is catastrophic.

+/- is also not everything and leaves out both context and the fact that hockey is a team sport.

Quinn was -6 in the regular season in 45 games, not the worst on the team and not the best. The team as a whole had a -16 goal differential and most of the roster had a negative +/-. They were playing ECHL depth Dmen for large parts of the season along with a goalie carousel.

Quinn was -8 in the playoffs. He was also focused on by opposing teams which allowed players like Peterka to thrive because they shifted Quinn and Peterka onto different lines. While he does need to figure out how to play through factors like this, that can take time.

Does Quinn need to improve his defensive play? Sure. However he is also relied upon for his scoring not his ability to get back defensively, not to mention the Dmen and Centers are far more important to team defensive play than the wingers.

Until Kulich proves otherwise Quinn is still the more high end prospect, and I say this with Kulich being one of my favorite Sabres prospects.

 

[thrillhous]

I took a good look. In your retained statistics, the overwhelming majority of players selected in the 1st round are missing. What makes Quinn's season unique is the rarity of the situation, a 1st round prospect who does an entire season in the AHL at U21. The table is filled with examples of players who only played a few games before going to play in the NHL. As already said, I quoted Thomas Bordeleau who only played 3 games and who left for the NHL from U20. What is the list of players who have played in the AHL more than 10 games recently ?

Best players very rarely do this. Lafreniere, Mercer, Lundell, Hughes, Kakko, Dach, Cozens, Zegras, Caufield, Podkolzin, Boldy, Newhook, Krebs, McMichael, Tomasino, Kaliyev was in NHL at U21.

After the points that is not everything. Quinn was also constantly in negative presence on the ice (-28 in 70 games). His record in the playoffs is catastrophic.

Jiri Kulich's performance has become more impressive than that of Martin Necas... who was playing in the NHL at U21.

The original purpose was to contradict the Jack Quinn label of the poor. What had Jack Quinn done at Jiri Kulich's current age that Kulich hasn't done yet ? Nothing.

So you acknowledge that your statement that dominating the AHL as a U21 player is “not exceptional” was incorrect and instead meant to argue that Quinn as a first rounder being in the AHL as a U21 makes him not exceptional. I won’t wade into anything related to Kulich v Quinn or anything about that. All I wanted to do was call you out on a BS statement. Glad you agree with me.

 

[Doug Prishpreed]

Someone has never watched Kulich

Do you have highlights or stats that show this great passing? Any examples at all? I'm mainly just going by what the scouts, coaches and adv stats say -- he almost never has any high danger passes, which people tend to put a lot of weight into these days.

He had one pretty amazing pass in the past tournament, but not enough to prove any development there yet. I'm hoping the Sabres development staff can work with him on that.