Bure's "deficiencies"

[vadim sharifijanov]

a poster on the canucks board just made a video from three random vancouver games from '95-'97. all three were games where he didn't score. but the point was to show that he wasn't always a cherry picker. these were three down years between top 5 goals/points finishes, but if you watch it you'll see that he used to routinely start his rushes from deep in the defensive zone, and not just on the PP.

of note:

* you'll see him backchecking, stripping the puck from draper deep in his own zone, then skating the puck up ice like he's bobby orr.

* another play where he makes a defensive play on gilchrist behind his own net, then is already in the neutral zone seconds later to accept the breakout pass from messier (ugh, messier). it's plays like that where people think he was always above the blueline waiting for a pass.

* he was a very underrated playmaker. the assist on the odjick goal is the most obvious example.

* another great play where he threads a pass through gilchrist's legs to ohlund. this from a guy who never/couldn't pass the puck.

unrelated, but:

* on the naslund goal, you also see bure, adrian aucoin, and alexander semak. there's four guys i had no memory of playing on the canucks at the same time.

* bure and mogilny on a two on one against scott stevens. young niedermayer ('95) catches up to friggin' bure and moginly and forces mogilny into a low percentage play, then makes the heads up play in the same stride to stop bure on the wraparound. nieds has taken a beating for being overrated in the last few years and for not being a star early on, but young niedermayer was still a very special player.

There has always seemed to be some confusion regarding what Pavel Bure contributed to the play of his team when he wasn't scoring.

While Pavel Bure's amazing goal scoring ability is well documented, some people still do not realize why he is considered to be one of the most electrifying players to watch in the history of the NHL. I decided to investigate for myself whether Pavel really was as exciting as we remember -- and he certainly was.

I combed through three randomly selected games from arguably his least successful seasons (1996-97 and 1997-98) and discovered that nearly every time Pavel touched the puck, something exciting happened. His explosiveness made him so elusive, and defenders had no idea how to contain him. The footage below is from arguably his worst seasons as a Canuck. Imagine him when he was at his best.

This is footage from just three games, enough to produce a 5-minute highlight reel. The Devils and Red Wings were at the height of their success, and Pavel was still able to accomplish some incredible feats against them.

October 25, 1995 vs the New Jersey Devils
October 5, 1996 vs the Calgary Flames
October 26, 1997 vs the Detroit Red Wings


Contrary to what many believe, Pavel backchecked and frequently stayed in his own zone until the Canucks regained possession of the puck. His favorite play was to start from his own goal line, pick up speed, and go end-to-end with the puck a la Bobby Orr. Often, he would be the last player to leave his defensive zone. He wanted to dazzle his audience, and as a result was not the constant cherry picker many believe him to be. He was so fast he could start at his own goal line and catch up to the play.

There are no goals featured in this highlight reel. Instead, this footage showcases a number of great plays that did not necessarily result in goals. Pavel Bure truly was a human highlight reel, as even his regular shifts were exhilarating to watch. As evidenced in the footage provided, he had at least 6 or 7 deadly rushes every game, and many more chances when moving the puck in the offensive zone; along with a goal or two every second game, this made Pavel Bure one of the most exciting players to play in the NHL. Every time he had the puck, fans gasped with excitement, as there was always a chance that he would score.

Hopefully, this is enough to curb the opinions of those who believe Pavel Bure was nothing more than a lazy cherry picker. He is, without a doubt, the greatest player in Canucks history. Never again will we see such an electrifying player with as much intensity and offensive ability as he had.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I always respected Bure for this play (as did Don Cherry):



Is it cheap? Yes, without a doubt it is a dirty play. BUT, it sends a message to the Stars and the rest of the league that he won't take any abuse from anyone. I love that he stood up for himself and took matters into his own hands. He was the recipient of a ton of abuse and he showed right there that he's capable of dishing some out on his own.

I thought Bure was at his best in '94. He could take over shifts, skate end-to-end to retrieve the puck or to rush an attack, he was one of the most feared players on the ice. Can't think of any other play who could handle the puck as well as he did while skating at full speed.

 

[lazerbullet]

I have been saying this for a long time that these talks about lazy and cherry-picking Bure have been blown way out of the proportion. He was not worse defensive player than other elite scorers at his time and even now. Selanne, Bondra, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk (especially in Atlanta) were not better defensive players than Pavel Bure.

As for excitement... nobody is really like him nowadays. Datsyuk is close, but in his own very unique way.

 

[Sens Rule]

All of these videos are THE reason for the criticism. Because Bure COULD have been a player that excelled on both ends of the rink. He had the skills and sometimes, but only relatively rarely did he use those skills and play a full 200 foot game.

The Bure that led the league in goals on Florida rarely, rarely ever played like the Bure that played in the 1994 final. He was the biggest cherry picker of all time perhaps by that point. Of course if you are going to play that game, at least he did it incredibly well in leading the NHL in goals on a weak team with no other offensive producers.

Bure didn't generally play a 200 foot game, and he didn't do it more then almost any other player of his era or ever. He COULD do it though. And he did do it, with much success, great success at times early in his career in Vancouver and especially in the 1994 playoffs.

Bure is a deserving Hall of Famer and also one of the most exciting players to ever play. But many are left wanting more. Knowing if Bure had a little bit different focus then just scoring goals, he still could have scored them by the boat full AND been a top 50 player EVER. Instead he is remembered as a human highlight reel. More like Vince Carter. Had everything you could ever want in talent and finesse, but never really became the full player that helped you win in every aspect of the game.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Bure's reputation around hfboards is much like Paul Coffey.. largely influenced by what people saw late in their careers when they weren't as effective as they once were.

People remember Bure as the cherry picker in Florida instead of the superstar in Vancouver, and the "Bure was a cherry picker" line gets repeated ad nauseum until it is just accepted that he was always that way.

He wasn't nearly as bad for much of his career as he was in Florida. He was pretty average for an offensive star winger in Vancouver from what I remember.

And what the hell else was he supposed to do in Florida.. those teams were absolutely dreadful.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I found that video a little odd. If I understand the main-board OP correctly, his point was to show that Bure backchecked and played hard in his own zone. But out of the entire 6-minute highlight reel, there are only 2 significant defensive plays. Both of which are good plays, mind you, but in the meantime you have to watch ~5:30 of highlights where his "backchecking" meant being the first guy with the puck on a set breakout, or in a lot of cases receiving the puck in the neutral zone. There's one play where literally the only thing that happens is Bure receives a 2-line pass which is whistled dead.

It's a nice vid for highlighting "a game in the life of Pavel Bure", and for showcasing the unreal speed and puck skills he possessed. I guess it shows that instead of floating near the red line, he used to skate the puck the whole 200 feet. Just not sure if that really proves what the editor was trying to prove.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

All of these videos are THE reason for the criticism. Because Bure COULD have been a player that excelled on both ends of the rink. He had the skills and sometimes, but only relatively rarely did he use those skills and play a full 200 foot game.

The Bure that led the league in goals on Florida rarely, rarely ever played like the Bure that played in the 1994 final. He was the biggest cherry picker of all time perhaps by that point. Of course if you are going to play that game, at least he did it incredibly well in leading the NHL in goals on a weak team with no other offensive producers.

Bure didn't generally play a 200 foot game, and he didn't do it more then almost any other player of his era or ever. He COULD do it though. And he did do it, with much success, great success at times early in his career in Vancouver and especially in the 1994 playoffs.

Bure is a deserving Hall of Famer and also one of the most exciting players to ever play. But many are left wanting more. Knowing if Bure had a little bit different focus then just scoring goals, he still could have scored them by the boat full AND been a top 50 player EVER. Instead he is remembered as a human highlight reel. More like Vince Carter. Had everything you could ever want in talent and finesse, but never really became the full player that helped you win in every aspect of the game.

i see where you're coming from, though obviously bure is my favourite player and it kills me to see him compared to wince.

"rarely" is relative, i guess. the first half of his career was played one way, most of the second half was played the way people remember. that first bure played in 10 playoff rounds four years, before the injuries started. that second bure played 4 total playoff games. so yeah obviously you have a point, but when we say "early in his career" or "young bure," in actuality this video leads us beyond the halfway mark of his career.

and the truth of it is, up until '97, selanne was FAR worse of a cherry picker than bure and much much more one dimensional. it's funny though how their all-round games started going in opposite directions after their surgeries. but the crucial difference of course is that what was half of bure's career is a small fraction of selanne's.

but the one thing i would add is that for some, you're right. what we see in those three videos was magical and some hold it against pavel that he didn't do that from '98 to '02. but i think the point of this video is that most people say things like, "bure couldn't play defense. he was a liabilty. he spent his entire career without entering his own zone. etc." (i.e., one dimensional because he couldn't, not one dimensional because he wouldn't.) i don't it gets acknowledged enough both how good and how much he did in the first half of his career, and what his actual abilities were.

if we acknowledge, as you do, what bure could have done, then i think it's fine to blame him for following through on that from '98 until he retired. although there is, i think, a good argument that in florida he did what he had to do.

I found that video a little odd. If I understand the main-board OP correctly, his point was to show that Bure backchecked and played hard in his own zone. But out of the entire 6-minute highlight reel, there are only 2 significant defensive plays. Both of which are good plays, mind you, but in the meantime you have to watch ~5:30 of highlights where his "backchecking" meant being the first guy with the puck on a set breakout, or in a lot of cases receiving the puck in the neutral zone. There's one play where literally the only thing that happens is Bure receives a 2-line pass which is whistled dead.

It's a nice vid for highlighting "a game in the life of Pavel Bure", and for showcasing the unreal speed and puck skills he possessed. I guess it shows that instead of floating near the red line, he used to skate the puck the whole 200 feet. Just not sure if that really proves what the editor was trying to prove.

yeah, i thought the same thing. what it debunks isn't that bure didn't play defense (though i am sure many posters here have NEVER seen him backcheck), but that he didn't cherry pick his entire career. but i think that in and of itself clears up one of the biggest and wrongest and most oft-repeated received wisdoms on this board.



last thing of note in that video: for those of you who want to watch how much of a lazy pos messier was in vancouver and how, beyond all the politics, we all loathe him for not showing up once in three years, here's what that spitshow looked like.

 

[Padan]

Funny that you brought up a game from the 97-98 season. Wasn't that one of Bure's most unforgettable seasons - despite 51 goals - where he really stopped caring about the defensive end and not playing a team game at all?

 

[MaxV]

Look, Bure had flaws in his game. But it's not like every player that gets elected to HHOF was an AWESOME all-around superstar.

He was deserving.

 

[Killion]

...Bure' was an electrifying player. In Warp Overdrive absolutely dazzling. Like a lot of thoroughbreds, high strung, wound up pretty tight, off-ice & some attitudinal issues but hey, no ones perfect. When he was "on", one of a kind. I dont really care about his supposed Russian Petrogangster & KGB ties, his loose lips about girlfriends, revolt and rage against the Canucks machine. His on ice exploits were something to behold, the rest judgements of character & morality best left alone. Hell, if we bring that up, dozens of current HHOF inductee's would have to be ejected.

 

[sr edler]

yeah, i've said it many times, it's annoying that he's singled out as a cherry picker when he was a better or at least not a worse defensive player than guys like selänne, hull, bondra, neely, robitaille, mogilny, jagr

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

yeah, i've said it many times, it's annoying that he's singled out as a cherry picker when he was a better or at least not a worse defensive player than guys like selänne, hull, bondra, neely, robitaille, mogilny, jagr

From 1998 on, Bure took the cherry picking to a new level, did he not?

I've never seen a bigger cherry picker than Bure in 2000-01

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Funny that you brought up a game from the 97-98 season. Wasn't that one of Bure's most unforgettable seasons - despite 51 goals - where he really stopped caring about the defensive end and not playing a team game at all?

kind of telling, isn't it? that game from the '97-'98 season against the red wings, when he supposedly put on one of the most despicable performances of any canucks star ever, we see in that video two defensive plays by him, both deep in his own zone, plus two great passes: the one to ohlund between gilchrist's legs (that was detroit's shutdown line who you'll see on the ice for most of the detroit clips-- gilchrist, draper, and kocur) and the pass on the gino odjick goal (on the ice were lidstrom, who bure blows past, larry murphy, yzerman, mccarty, and kozlov).

for a guy who was a selfish player and never played defense, this is a random game from his worst season against a team in the middle of back-to-back cups. not to say the canucks won that game, or even close (and that game was in the middle of a ten game losing streak), but it certainly doesn't look like that team's woes were bure's fault. messier, on the other hand...

 

[Elwood Blues]

...Bure' was an electrifying player. In Warp Overdrive absolutely dazzling. Like a lot of thoroughbreds, high strung, wound up pretty tight, off-ice & some attitudinal issues but hey, no ones perfect. When he was "on", one of a kind. I dont really care about his supposed Russian Petrogangster & KGB ties, his loose lips about girlfriends, revolt and rage against the Canucks machine. His on ice exploits were something to behold, the rest judgements of character & morality best left alone. Hell, if we bring that up, dozens of current HHOF inductee's would have to be ejected.

Very well put! I was aware of his deficencies but I still loved watching him. Sometimes that's the sign of a star.

 

[sr edler]

From 1998 on, Bure took the cherry picking to a new level, did he not?

I've never seen a bigger cherry picker than Bure in 2000-01

no one's saying bure was perfect late in florida, or in his last season in vancouver, 00-01 he kind of had to play like that to try to be effective for his team, but i don't know about a "new level", i've seen a lot of players with a lot more obvious cherry picks, selänne's game for example was never built on lying deep in his own zone

if you're only calling him a cherry picker you're making the kids who didn't see him play early on in vancouver believe he couldn't score without constantly cheating on the defense, when in reality he would skate around lidström and score, he would skate through bourque and score, he would skate away from niedermayer and stevens and score

 

[Dalton]

Bure was one of the most talented goals scorers the game of hockey has ever seen. The only cherry picking is from those who ignore this obvious fact and emphasise whatever crap they can think of to poke holes in his game.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I've said it here before and I'll say it here again now...

Bure at his best was one of the most electrifying players I've seen in 40+ years of watching hockey (and that includes his play without the puck and in the defensive end). Bure at his worst was one of the most selfish embarrassments to ever take the ice.

 

[Big Phil]

For starters, let me make this clear: Bure deserves the HHOF in my opinion. It would be too hard to keep him out. The Bure in 1994 wanted so desperately to win. My goodness, he elbowed Churla a la Gordie Howe, he threw some bodychecks and he scored a ton of goals that spring. The 1993-'94 season was his best - by far. I remember in Game 7 against the Rangers when he went back to the bench and just kicked the bench out of frustration. He wanted to win so badly. Remember Game 5 of the final when there was that crazy game with all those goals in the third period? I remember Babych's goal that put the Canucks back ahead and Bure literally leaped in his arms and they toppled over. He was so driven back then it seemed. And no, back then he wasn't just a cherrypicker. I remember someone on the main board once claiming he "dove" on that trip that led to a penalty shot in the 1994 final. I disagreed. You can say a lot about Bure, but even in his Florida years I never thought of him as a diver, because he always wanted to score, regardless of what it took.

Unfortunately injuries and other factors never showed him playing like his 1994 version again. 1997-'98 is a perfect example. Scoring 51 goals but everyone knew he was going to leave Vancouver after the season and it showed. After that, he just was more of a one dimensional player with little desire to win. You just never saw him block shots, or seem to genuinely care when the team lost.

A good example is the 2000 playoffs. Somehow Scott Stevens got away on a two-on-one and Bure is seen just gliding back. Stevens scored the goal, won the Cup and won the Smythe three rounds later. I remember that play because it was highlighted on TSN. Basically the point was, how could an aging Stevens who was never a lightning fast skater to begin with, outskate Bure? Its because Bure wasn't trying to get back, he was just watching things develop. Unfortunately there is more of that version of Bure than the 1994 version.

Granted other players like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Selanne and even Jagr have been criticized for their defense. I know for sure that Ovechkin at one point during his Hart years was playing out of his mind at both ends. I can remember him distintively stifling a breakaway on a back check by diving and swooping the puck away. I think since the 2010 playoffs, or even the 2010 Olympics Ovechkin has sort of gotten that label (perhaps justified) of not doing everything required to win.

But Bure had that for several years and it wasn't a myth.

 

[Dalton]

For starters, let me make this clear: Bure deserves the HHOF in my opinion. It would be too hard to keep him out. The Bure in 1994 wanted so desperately to win. My goodness, he elbowed Churla a la Gordie Howe, he threw some bodychecks and he scored a ton of goals that spring. The 1993-'94 season was his best - by far. I remember in Game 7 against the Rangers when he went back to the bench and just kicked the bench out of frustration. He wanted to win so badly. Remember Game 5 of the final when there was that crazy game with all those goals in the third period? I remember Babych's goal that put the Canucks back ahead and Bure literally leaped in his arms and they toppled over. He was so driven back then it seemed. And no, back then he wasn't just a cherrypicker. I remember someone on the main board once claiming he "dove" on that trip that led to a penalty shot in the 1994 final. I disagreed. You can say a lot about Bure, but even in his Florida years I never thought of him as a diver, because he always wanted to score, regardless of what it took.

Unfortunately injuries and other factors never showed him playing like his 1994 version again. 1997-'98 is a perfect example. Scoring 51 goals but everyone knew he was going to leave Vancouver after the season and it showed. After that, he just was more of a one dimensional player with little desire to win. You just never saw him block shots, or seem to genuinely care when the team lost.

A good example is the 2000 playoffs. Somehow Scott Stevens got away on a two-on-one and Bure is seen just gliding back. Stevens scored the goal, won the Cup and won the Smythe three rounds later. I remember that play because it was highlighted on TSN. Basically the point was, how could an aging Stevens who was never a lightning fast skater to begin with, outskate Bure? Its because Bure wasn't trying to get back, he was just watching things develop. Unfortunately there is more of that version of Bure than the 1994 version.

Granted other players like Ovechkin, Kovalchuk, Selanne and even Jagr have been criticized for their defense. I know for sure that Ovechkin at one point during his Hart years was playing out of his mind at both ends. I can remember him distintively stifling a breakaway on a back check by diving and swooping the puck away. I think since the 2010 playoffs, or even the 2010 Olympics Ovechkin has sort of gotten that label (perhaps justified) of not doing everything required to win.

But Bure had that for several years and it wasn't a myth.

It's quite possible that his injuries interfered with his abilities to an extent that he was unable to quickly generate the explosive speed he had pre-injury. Does his drop off in 200 foot action coincide with his surgeries?

Ovechkin is a bit of a mystery but he does seem to be affected by his suspensions and finally by the loss to Syd's Team Canada and perhaps that terrific game they had a scoring contest.

Maybe both players have/had some sort of pride or psyche impact that affected their passion for the game.

Two incredible talents that belong in the hall. Hopefully Ovie makes the cut when the time comes.

 

[Big Phil]

It's quite possible that his injuries interfered with his abilities to an extent that he was unable to quickly generate the explosive speed he had pre-injury. Does his drop off in 200 foot action coincide with his surgeries?

Ovechkin is a bit of a mystery but he does seem to be affected by his suspensions and finally by the loss to Syd's Team Canada and perhaps that terrific game they had a scoring contest.

Maybe both players have/had some sort of pride or psyche impact that affected their passion for the game.

Two incredible talents that belong in the hall. Hopefully Ovie makes the cut when the time comes.

Ovechkin gets in if he retires tomorrow.

As for Bure, I really don't think it affected his speed at all. He scored 9 goals in the 1998 Olympics. He also scored 50+ goals three times after the mid 1990s. It could have been a lack of drive or passion, who knows. I don't think it affected his speed at all, because he could still turn on the jets in Florida

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

there is a popular opinion among canucks fans, or half of them anyway, that bure became extremely jaded after '94. and the situation kept getting worse and worse until it came to a head in '98. the situation with pat quinn and the canucks, depending on who you believe, really made him question why he was giving everything he had to a team that didn't seem to view him as anything more than how say wal-mart treats its employees.

whether he carried this jadedness with him to florida and new york, where i don't think management screwed with him, is an open question. i have no idea. but that's one possible explanation.

another contributing factor is how he grew up. he was brought up in the soviet hockey system, where they treated their players like worse than dirt, comes to north america and they don't treat him much better. in soviet russia, you learn to look out for yourself because the team/country isn't going to look out for you. maybe that attitude resurfaced in his later vancouver years? i mean, he didn't train any less hard (and his fitness level and raw strength were legendary-- he was always physically the strongest canucks when they did fitness tests), and he didn't try any less hard (to score goals), he just stopped playing the kind of team-oriented game he played early on.

i don't think he lost much from his first knee injury in '95. if you watch some of those clips, particularly the one from the beginning of the '98 season, he clearly still had it and didn't need to cheat at the blueline to get breakaways.

 

[Kirikanoir]

another contributing factor is how he grew up. he was brought up in the soviet hockey system, where they treated their players like worse than dirt, comes to north america and they don't treat him much better.

What? I`m a huge Bure fan, but really what?

How the heck was Bure treated like dirt in North America? He comes over, he`s making 5 million or more a season, and he`s pretty much considered a god in the city he`s playing in. If you consider that getting treated like "worse than dirt" then you need to open your eyes and get a dose of reality to put things in perspective.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

One of, if not the best player to go end to end over and over and over and no one could stop him ... annnndddd ... he gets dubbed a cherry picker ?

He was told straight up to constantly look for breaks in the defense and move towards the holes at speed while receiving the puck from his teammates. It was just a well played move to utilize his ridculous speed and breakaway talent; get him as many as possible.

Anyone that calls him that = insta butt hurt or ignorant fan. No point talking hockey with either.

 

[tombombadil]

there is a popular opinion among canucks fans, or half of them anyway, that bure became extremely jaded after '94. and the situation kept getting worse and worse until it came to a head in '98. the situation with pat quinn and the canucks, depending on who you believe, really made him question why he was giving everything he had to a team that didn't seem to view him as anything more than how say wal-mart treats its employees.

whether he carried this jadedness with him to florida and new york, where i don't think management screwed with him, is an open question. i have no idea. but that's one possible explanation.

another contributing factor is how he grew up. he was brought up in the soviet hockey system, where they treated their players like worse than dirt, comes to north america and they don't treat him much better. in soviet russia, you learn to look out for yourself because the team/country isn't going to look out for you. maybe that attitude resurfaced in his later vancouver years? i mean, he didn't train any less hard (and his fitness level and raw strength were legendary-- he was always physically the strongest canucks when they did fitness tests), and he didn't try any less hard (to score goals), he just stopped playing the kind of team-oriented game he played early on.

i don't think he lost much from his first knee injury in '95. if you watch some of those clips, particularly the one from the beginning of the '98 season, he clearly still had it and didn't need to cheat at the blueline to get breakaways.

do you have any numbers? I've seen a picture of him with no shirt - he looked like a running back, or an olympic wrestler. Very solidly built.

 

[Nona Di Giuseppe]

From 1998 on, Bure took the cherry picking to a new level, did he not?

I've never seen a bigger cherry picker than Bure in 2000-01

You've never seen anyone like Bure exploit another's team defense single handedly like Bure.

"Cherry picking" is a derogatory term, while what Bure did was simply work behind the other's D.

And he did it well.

In reference to my post above, you seem to fall into the aforementioned categories.