Break up VHP and get a better balance to this lineup

[joshjull]

I was thinking Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville earlier today. That would be a really good second line. Vanek and Hodgson would then need a RW, and it also takes Pominville away from Vanek, which isn't good either.

Either way, it's not a bad set up.

Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

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[Irving Zisman]

Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

I can see both sides of it, tbh. You're definitely spot on with your assessment that seperating Van and Poms actually helped overall last year, but I think you still don't mess with the magic of that top line... At least for now. Stafford, offensive suckage this year aside, has shown he has the defensive chops to be an effective RW on a two-way shutdown line centered by someone like ROR. Of course Poms would be better, but Stafford's size and more willingness to use it this year would actually work pretty well alongside a cerebral type center like O'Reilly. I'd go something like:

V-H-P
O-O'R-S
F-G-L (if L's ever healthy... This could be our version of Hartnell-Briere-Leino)
G/S-H-K

 

[start winnin]

Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

It worked because we had Roy then. Who even despite his scoring woes was still a threat.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

True, though neither Pominville nor Vanek played at the same rate. Vanek and Pominville at the start of this season, and last, are playing better than separated late last season. Vanek was hurt, but that's not accounting for everything. They play better together.

Though, on the other hand, I like the idea of Foligno playing on Vanek's line. I know Vanek is good playing off-wing, but I also like the idea of Foligno creating space for him.

Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Girgensons - O'Reilly - Pominville
Ott - Grigorenko - Stafford (eventually Armia)

I do like those lines, especially when Armia arrives.

 

[HockeyH3aven]

Don't know why folks are so afraid to separate Vanek/Pommer. When that happened last season a few games after the trade deadline. We played our best hockey rolling 3 equally deadly lines. That was after stumbling along as a one line team for most of the season. That sounds pretty familiar doesn't it.

You're suggesting breaking up something that is working (VHP line) to try something that may or may not work. It happens and sometimes it's a good idea, but I don't see why you would do it in this situation.

 

[joshjull]

I know many will be up in arms over the very idea but humor me for a moment.

The current setup is not working for the TEAM. Yes individually its been great for VHP but for the team its led to our 2nd and 3rd lines floundering.

Last season when we split them up is when our team's overall play took off, we had 3 effective lines and a two way line that did the heavy lifting defensively.

The lines during that stretch were

Leino/Roy/Pommer
Tropp/Hodgson/Vanek
Foligno/Ennis/Stafford


Roy's line did the heavy lifting defensively while still providing offense. The other two lines took turns tearing it up offensively.

Now it will be tougher with the current lineup to put together a strong two way line since we have no center of Roy's caliber on faceoffs or defensively or a forward with Leino's cycling ability.

But here's a stab at it.


Foligno/Hodgson/Vanek
Gerbe/Ennis/Stafford
Ott/Hecht/Pommer

You could also flip Gerbe and Foligno

Ott/Hecht/Pommer should be able to provide a solid level of defensive play and free up the other two lines to play a more straight forward offensive game. Ott/Pommer would also provide a solid support system when a checking line may not be needed and you want to put Grigs in on the 3rd line.

 

[Duddy]

Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Ott - Hecht - Poms
Ennis - Grigs - Stafford
the others

basically
1st line
2 way line
feasting on opponents bottom liners/Dmans
Scott, Mccormick, Kaleta killing line

 

[joshjull]

You're suggesting breaking up something that is working (VHP line) to try something that may or may not work. It happens and sometimes it's a good idea, but I don't see why you would do it in this situation.

You can't see why a team that sucks and can't win would want to shuffle their lines for a better mix?

 

[jBuds]

You can't see why a team that sucks and can't win would want to shuffle their lines for a better mix?

You're taking your only strong suit or piece that's working and trying to spread it out thinner across the lineup elsewhere.

I don't love it.

Then there's the thought of, "why try to improve this team in order to get us into a fight for 9th place?"

 

[thefifagod]

I think you can make a competent defensive line without breaking up VHP. The problem is that Ruff doesn't have a clue as to how to use his players and his system sucks; Ott and Stafford have the same offensive zone start % (48%), Regehr is starting half the time in the offensive zone, etc. Personally, I would keep VHP and FES together and have my defensive line be Ott-Hecht-Kaleta. They'd be a minimal scoring threat but they would make things a lot easier for the top 6.

 

[Old Navy Goat]

You can think that they're playing like a hot steaming pile constructed as is, what's the worst that can happen if they tinker with the lines? Worse comes to worse they play crappier than now and we can then complain about how Lindy screwed up by tinkering with the lineup.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO...it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.

 

[SabresFan26]

Foligno - Hodgson - Vanek
Ott - Hecht - Poms
Ennis - Grigs - Stafford
the others

basically
1st line
2 way line
feasting on opponents bottom liners/Dmans
Scott, Mccormick, Kaleta killing line

Well I am not encouraging breaking that line up, if they did, those lines are what I would do. Ideally a better version of Hecht is brought in and he is replaced (ROR).

 

[Zman5778]

You're taking your only strong suit or piece that's working and trying to spread it out thinner across the lineup elsewhere.

If there's a time to try it, it's now IMO.

Pominville has had a very pedestrian couple of games and it really looks like FES is finding their groove again.

If VHP is gonna be broken up, why not try:

Vanek/Hodgson/Ott (similar to V/H/Tropp that worked)
FES
Hecht/Grigorenko/Pominville (maybe try to rekindle a little magic??)

 

[Myllz]

I don't think it honestly matters. Even if you split up the line, their production will get split into two lines instead of one. The end result would be the same, assuming they even continue their current production.

 

[thefifagod]

The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO..it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.

Bingo.

 

[OkimLom]

I personally would like to see:

Vanek-Hodgson-Foligno Vanek and Cody have chemistry, Cody and Foligno have chemistry from Roch, and Vanek and Foligno work well on the PP.
Ott-Ennis-Gerbe - Yes, its dumb to have two smallest guys on the same line, but at this point, I don't care. their speed and ability to bring the puck out and cycle in the offensive zone makes me want to try it.
Stafford-Grigroenko-Pominville - I think the offense was flowing too much through Hodgson and Vanek to the point where Pominville seemed to be just floating around.
Kaleta-McCormick/Hecht-Hecht/Scott - We know what we get with this line.

I have no answers for Defense pairings

But I agree G&G, if anything needs to change its the system.

 

[joshjull]

The flip side is that Ennis and Foligno are starting to pick up their games and have looked much better offensively over the past few games.

The real problem is a lack of commitment to defense. That can be remedied without changing the lines IMO...it's a system issue more than a personnel issue.

Its actually both and yes moving personel can have an impact.

We currently have no line that can handle or even attempt to handle playing against the top offensive lines of other teams. It leads to VHP and FES playing more than they should against strong offensive lines. While at the same time facing either a strong defensive pairing or a two way/defensive line. Its something a line like Vanek/Hodgson/Pommer can handle most nights but not Foligno/Ennis/Stafford.

Without a strong 3rd line as a two way option we are stuck with very bad match ups every night for our 2nd and 3rd lines.

And FES is not really heating up. They had one strong game -vs- Boston on 2/15 and thats about it in the last 5 games.

The last 5 games for those 3.

Ennis -----> 5gms 1g 3a 4pts -2 (2 of the 4 pts vs Boston 2/15)
Stafford --> 5gms 1g 3a 3pts +1 (2 of the 3pts -vs- Boston 2/15)
Foligno ---> 5gms 0g 1a 1pt -3 ( got that assist -vs- Boston 2/15)

Thats 5 of 8 pts from those three in that one game during that 5gm stretch.

Foligno has also been a minus 4 of the last 5gms. Ennis has been a minus player in 3 of last 5gms. Stafford 2 of 5.

 

[Jim Bob]

The tough part is that every time Ruff has done this in the past, it usually hasn't worked, and then the media and fans kill Ruff for tinkering with the lines and messing up the one line that was clicking...

 

[TehDoak]

If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against

 

[Paxon]

I'm open to it in general but I am not sure now is the time. FES has been more active, giving a bit of hope that they can get going. The team is high in the league in scoring, goals allowed and general team defense is the real issue. If this move addresses that in part by constructing a high-use defensive line with Pommer on it then that's one thing.

If we do move Pom frankly I'd want him put with Grigs to see if he can help the kid along and create a 3rd line that could potentially score some goals.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

If there's a time to try it, it's now IMO.

Pominville has had a very pedestrian couple of games and it really looks like FES is finding their groove again.

If VHP is gonna be broken up, why not try:

Vanek/Hodgson/Ott (similar to V/H/Tropp that worked)
FES
Hecht/Grigorenko/Pominville (maybe try to rekindle a little magic??)

I mostly agree with this, as it's similar to what I posted several weeks ago...even once or twice prior to the season. The exceptions are that Leino is out now, and it's clear now that Grigorenko is not capable of pulling hard defensive assignments.

The basic idea though is legitimate, but as someone else also pointed out it's a system issue as well. Ruff has to stop forcing everyone into the same roles and responsibilities just because he envisions the perfect team handling the same minutes all the time. Even a legit Cup contender isn't that team, and the Sabres sure as hell aren't that team, so Ruff needs to set these lines up for success by playing them in favorable situations instead of asking them to continually do what they aren't quite ready/capable of.

 

[stokes84]

Just flip the RWs to see if you can get something going. They are both not going well, can't hurt to try.

VHS
FEP

 

[MLH]

If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against

Breaking up a line that has been downright abysmal at giving up goals against isn't going to lower the goals against?

Per 60 minutes of ES play, Hodgson is on the ice for 5.11 GA, Pominville for 4.79, and Vanek for 4.44.

There are only two other forwards (Foligno and Grigorenko) above 2.75 on the team.

For as good as they've been in the offensive end, they've been equally as poor in their own zone.

 

[OkimLom]

If goal scoring was an issue, I'd be all for it. Giving up nearly 3.5 goals a game is the issue.

Now, if we didn't have our best two way forward already on that line in Pommers, you might have an argument.

Mixing up forwards isn't going to lower the goals against

Maybe if we find better chemistry for guys it might lead to more offensive zone time, which leads directly to lower defensive zone time, less chance for turnovers, less mistakes, possible lower goals against.