Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays fire manager Montoyo, Schneider takes over

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Just give Montoyo his pink slip tonight

..have to do something to shake this team up

Was listening to 590 this morning, and they said the team is dealing with Mark Budzinski's daughter's funeral today.

Because of this, I'd be stunned the team makes any coaching changes in the near future, or maybe at all this season.

.....That said, I'm all for a new manager next season. Montoyo is terrible.
 
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Was listening to 590 this morning, and they said the team is dealing with Mark Budzinski's daughter's funeral today.

Because of this, I'd be stunned the team makes any coaching changes in the near future, or maybe at all this season.

.....That said, I'm all for a new manager next season. Montoyo is terrible.

Oh man, so Jays are just going to punt the season because of this one tragic event? This whole thing sucks all the way around. I really feel for coach Bud the most. What an awful tragedy.
 
Was listening to 590 this morning, and they said the team is dealing with Mark Budzinski's daughter's funeral today.

Because of this, I'd be stunned the team makes any coaching changes in the near future, or maybe at all this season.

.....That said, I'm all for a new manager next season. Montoyo is terrible.

If they were thinking about a change it wouldn't be today as the optics would look bad but if this upcoming week is like last week you need to make a change.

Sometimes you need to get rid of the fun-loving manager and install a guy where it becomes not so comfortable in the locker room.
 

Draft bonus pool

$8,367,700 — 16th-largest bonus pool in this draft

Source: MLB.com

Blue Jays draft picks with top-10 round slot values

Round 1, Pick No. 23: $3,075,300

Rd. 2, Pick No. 60: $1,216,100

FA comp, Pick No. 77: $846,500 (compensation for losing Marcus Semien)

FA comp, Pick No. 78: $833,200 (compensation for losing Robbie Ray)

Rd. 3, Pick No. 98: $623,200

Rd. 4, Pick No. 128: $465,400

Rd. 5, Pick No. 158: $346,800

Rd. 6, Pick No. 188: $268,300

Rd. 7, Pick No. 218: $210,300

Rd. 8, Pick No. 248: $173,800

Rd. 9, Pick No. 278: $158,500

Rd. 10, Pick No. 308: $150,300


Rd. 11, Pick No. 338:

Rd. 12, Pick No. 368:

Rd. 13, Pick No. 398:

Rd. 14, Pick No. 428:

Rd. 15, Pick No. 458:

Rd. 16, Pick No. 488:

Rd. 17, Pick No. 518:

Rd. 18, Pick No. 548:

Rd. 19, Pick No. 578:

Rd. 20, Pick No. 608:

Source: MLB.com
 


Crazy jump but well deserved as he's been one of the best starters in the entire minor leagues.

One thing we have to keep in mind tho is he's only facing teams lineups twice thru the order and has gone a max of 5 innings. His total innings will also be something to watch and he even spoke about hoping that he can continue to keep his performance late into the season and recently he's been a bit less effective.

I think smart thing to do would be keep him at A+ all season and dominate. Start him next season in AA and if he continues to be lights out, you might have a top 10 prospect in baseball that could be a starting option by midseason.

A potential rotation of say Manoah, Gausman, one of Castillo/Montas, Berrios, Tiedemann could be quite scary.
 
Okay, when a player's glove picks a moment like that to blow you've just got to tip your hat and admit they were meant to lose that one.



I'm starting to think you actually take people literally when they use the "voodoo" figure of speech.

No, dude, we don't literally believe in magic. It's just another way of saying bullpens are unreliable exactly for the same reasons you've just stated. Everyone here understands the analogy. Even Nemesis has used the "voodoo" thing.

Yes, I know what people mean when they say voodoo. It's a dumb thing to say - and no less stupid when Nem says it.

A bullpen filled with good arms will almost always be reliable. A bullpen filled with trash will almost always be unreliable.

Excusing a bp composed of trash by dismissing bullpens as "voodoo" is ridiculous. It cost us a playoff spot last year and could do so this year.
 

I’ll just come out and say it: I don’t know what the hell is taking Ross Atkins so long in addressing his team's pitching issues -- and you get the sense that there’s a lot of that sentiment in the Toronto Blue Jays clubhouse, too.

That’s dangerous, because we’re at a point with this team where it’s going to be painfully easy to read into every gesture or statement. It’s not even the all-star break and the Blue Jays have held two players-only meetings and it sure seems as if we’ve reached the 'something doesn’t feel' right; stage, which usually precedes the 'somebody needs to pay' stage. I mean, it sure looked to me like Bo Bichette wanted no part of the home run jacket Sunday …

................

Now, the usual caveats need to be employed here: your minor-league prospects or even players on your major-league roster are only as valuable as they are seen by your potential trade partner. It matters naught where they’re ranked by somebody on some website. It also takes two to trade and with expanded playoffs … well, ask the Orioles if they’re ready to back up the truck to the degree they were two weeks ago. Or, for that matter, the Seattle Mariners. Then, too, there’s the fact that the draft has been moved back to the all-star break from June … and we all know how much band-width the draft occupies.

Meanwhile, Atkins has a ton of pitching money sitting on the IL in Hyun-Jin Ryu and Yusei Kikuchi. Can he still bring on money in a deal? Does he need to send some out? These are all complicating factors.

...............

It almost makes you think that the Blue Jays were waiting for Nate Pearson to save them, which begs the question: Why? Based on what track record, exactly?

So far, Atkins’ answer has been to bring in Sergio Romo off the waiver wire and buy Anthony Banda. Hence, the Clueless in Seattle series: Banda opening a game, Lawrence entering and getting shelled. Max Castillo logging 7 1/3 innings with two days of rest in-between. I mean, what the hell?
Yes, the Blue Jays were 2-for-20 with runners in scoring position on Friday. Yes, Lourdes Gurriel, Jr., shot-putted a ball over the fence for a Mariners home run and, yes, Vladdy’s glove exploded for the second time this year but make no mistake: it’s the thinness of the pitching that provides the backdrop to everything.

Look: Atkins has done nice work at the deadline. Taijuan Walker. Robbie Ray and -- I’ll die on this hill, folks -- Berrios. Maybe he can pull off a Luis Castillo or (dream scenario, here, folks) Pablo Lopez deal. Surely, he can find some relievers who can throw upper 90s because it seems as if they’ve fallen out of the trees for everybody else. He might want to start thinking about whether it’s time to put together a wider deal focused on one of his right-hand hitting corner outfielders, especially since the organization has failed to lock up Hernandez.

Because the sense here is it’s time to re-consider some of the assumptions made about the 2022 Blue Jays. Long past time.
 
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Was listening to 590 this morning, and they said the team is dealing with Mark Budzinski's daughter's funeral today.

Because of this, I'd be stunned the team makes any coaching changes in the near future, or maybe at all this season.

.....That said, I'm all for a new manager next season. Montoyo is terrible.
That’s not how businesses operate. He’s on the edge on the plank waiting until it’s not a pr problem for them. Likely all star break at the latest IMO unless they go on a run
 
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I’ll just come out and say it: I don’t know what the hell is taking Ross Atkins so long in addressing his team's pitching issues -- and you get the sense that there’s a lot of that sentiment in the Toronto Blue Jays clubhouse, too.

That’s dangerous, because we’re at a point with this team where it’s going to be painfully easy to read into every gesture or statement. It’s not even the all-star break and the Blue Jays have held two players-only meetings and it sure seems as if we’ve reached the 'something doesn’t feel' right; stage, which usually precedes the 'somebody needs to pay' stage. I mean, it sure looked to me like Bo Bichette wanted no part of the home run jacket Sunday …

................

Now, the usual caveats need to be employed here: your minor-league prospects or even players on your major-league roster are only as valuable as they are seen by your potential trade partner. It matters naught where they’re ranked by somebody on some website. It also takes two to trade and with expanded playoffs … well, ask the Orioles if they’re ready to back up the truck to the degree they were two weeks ago. Or, for that matter, the Seattle Mariners. Then, too, there’s the fact that the draft has been moved back to the all-star break from June … and we all know how much band-width the draft occupies.

Meanwhile, Atkins has a ton of pitching money sitting on the IL in Hyun-Jin Ryu and Yusei Kikuchi. Can he still bring on money in a deal? Does he need to send some out? These are all complicating factors.

...............

It almost makes you think that the Blue Jays were waiting for Nate Pearson to save them, which begs the question: Why? Based on what track record, exactly?

So far, Atkins’ answer has been to bring in Sergio Romo off the waiver wire and buy Anthony Banda. Hence, the Clueless in Seattle series: Banda opening a game, Lawrence entering and getting shelled. Max Castillo logging 7 1/3 innings with two days of rest in-between. I mean, what the hell?
Yes, the Blue Jays were 2-for-20 with runners in scoring position on Friday. Yes, Lourdes Gurriel, Jr., shot-putted a ball over the fence for a Mariners home run and, yes, Vladdy’s glove exploded for the second time this year but make no mistake: it’s the thinness of the pitching that provides the backdrop to everything.

Look: Atkins has done nice work at the deadline. Taijuan Walker. Robbie Ray and -- I’ll die on this hill, folks -- Berrios. Maybe he can pull off a Luis Castillo or (dream scenario, here, folks) Pablo Lopez deal. Surely, he can find some relievers who can throw upper 90s because it seems as if they’ve fallen out of the trees for everybody else. He might want to start thinking about whether it’s time to put together a wider deal focused on one of his right-hand hitting corner outfielders, especially since the organization has failed to lock up Hernandez.

Because the sense here is it’s time to re-consider some of the assumptions made about the 2022 Blue Jays. Long past time.
On that last part I think we are likely to see one of Lourdes or Teo traded in the near future. Problem is would a team trading is a starter want one as part of the return?
 
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Yes, I know what people mean when they say voodoo. It's a dumb thing to say - and no less stupid when Nem says it.

A bullpen filled with good arms will almost always be reliable. A bullpen filled with trash will almost always be unreliable.

Excusing a bp composed of trash by dismissing bullpens as "voodoo" is ridiculous. It cost us a playoff spot last year and could do so this year.

That's a misrepresentation of what the idea of "bullpens are voodoo" is about. It's not about pretending that you can ignore poor performance. It's about the fact that from year-to-year, most pen arms are extremely variable in terms of performance and that it's very difficult to project how a pen is going to perform even if you think you've got a good idea based on past precedent.

Obviously the goal is always to have as much talent as you can manage to get in there, but much like its prospect-related maxim of "TINSTAAPP" (There's no such thing as a pitching prospect) it's a reminder not to get too comfortable, nor to get too hung up on apparently worse pedigrees because there's no telling when your fortunes are going to change.

Bullpens are voodoo because you can look at the Yankee pen, which is 2nd in MLB in ERA or fWAR and examine its major components (top 8 in IP to this point in the season):

1) Michael King: a 12th round pick of the Marlins who the Yankees acquired in 2017 for a couple of mid-level prospects. He was abjectly terrible in 2020 and passable last year before he suddenly massively improved on his career #s this season in pretty much every conceivable way.

2) Clay Holmes: a failed 1st round pick of the Pirates from 2011, he was acquired by the Yankees last year after several awful seasons in Pittsburgh. I remember reading Pirates fans reactions to the trade where they were ecstatic to get anything of value for him at all (they got a couple of decent depth guys). He's been very good since arriving in New York, cutting his walk totals significantly and giving up far fewer hits.

3) Wandy Peralta: Acquired with a PTBNL from San Francisto for Mike Tauchman, he had 6 up-and-down seasons before this year in which he never approached anything close to what he's doing now.

4) Lucas Luetge: a 21st round draft pick in 2008 turned rule-5 pick 4 years later he then bounced through 5 other organizations before landing in New York prior to the 2021 season. He had been OK in his first two seasons in Seattle in 2012-13 before spending most of the next 6 years in the minors/hurt before ending up on the Yankees and suddenly seeing his walks plummet to the point that he became a useful reliever.

5) Miguel Castro: The former Blue Jay shuffled through 3 other orgs before the Yankees picked him up last season for crappy, 'shouldn't-be-in-the-bigs' reliever Joely Rodriguez. Might be the only guy on this list who had an iffy track record before now and is not suddenly doing significantly better than he has in the past. Has somehow Adam Cimber'd his way to 5 wins out of the pen even though he wouldn't appear to be a high leverage guy.

6) Clarke Schmidt: New York's 2017 1st rounder. Came up last year to get knocked around in 6 innings of work but has been serviceable this season. His peripherals aren't great, but he's doing well enough all things considered.

7) Ron Marinaccio: New York's 2017 19th round pick. Has been a reliever every step of his pro career. Has some walk problems but balances it out by not allowing many hits, though that comes off of an insanely low .163 BABIP that suggests it's probably only a matter of time before things even out and he starts getting knocked around a bit more.

8) Aroldis Chapman: The only guy in this pen who you could conceivably call a prominent, big-name, reliable high-talent reliever. But even that comes with the proviso that he's been slipping in recent years and has missed significant time due to injury.

so out of those top 8 arms in the Yankee pen, the biggest name-brand highly talented one is the guy who's pitched the least. And the rest of the group are misfit toys, castoffs and forgotten acquisitions that never would've been let go if there were any inklings that they were as talented as they've been this season. It's a bunch of randos who emerged collectively out of nowhere and are no guarantee to keep succeeding. For all we know 2023 rolls around and a couple of them suddenly go back to sucking. Or most of them. Or maybe all of them. Or a couple of them get hurt. Or who knows. Point is that the Yankees didn't go out and build that pen out of notable highly talented 'obvious' choices to succeed. Well, they tried to but then Chapman got hurt and Britton has missed most of the last year and a half due to injury.

Compare that to the Jays, for whom their top 8 in usage has been Cimber, Phelps, Romano, Garcia, Richards, Mayza, Thornton, and Merryweather. Of that group only the last 3 guys are ones who have spotty or awful track records before now. The first 5 had all been good to great since becoming full-time MLB relievers with maybe one hiccup here or there. And even Mayza had an excellent 2021 to make people high on him. Compared to where the Yankees pen came from, the Jays should've been able to easily match or exceed their divisional rivals besides Chapman when you consider pedigree and past performance. But it hasn't worked out that way because bullpen performance is significantly unpredictable.

Bullpens are voodoo because you're always betting on failed starters. Guys who have obvious holes and warts and for whom the margin for error is infinitesimally smaller than a starting pitcher because they likely lack command/control, or stamina, or a 3rd (or even 2nd) pitch, or a repeatable delivery, or consistency, or a track record free of major injury, or any number of other things. So for as long as that's the case in pretty much all of baseball you're going to have instances where guys emerge from nowhere to succeed, and the could possibly fail at any moment without warning.

that's the voodoo. Alek Manoah isn't likely to suddenly implode and become a shell of his former self outside of an injury robbing him of some of his talent. But there's no telling how long the Jays can ride Jordan Romano before something about him changes and he can no longer dominate batters. Maybe it's 5 years, 3, 1 more, or maybe it's only a few more weeks. We suspect it'll be the longer term and not the shorter because he's been so good, but if he was good enough to allay all those fears he likely wouldn't be a reliever in the first place.
 
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On that last part I think we are likely to see one of Lourdes or Teo traded in the near future. Problem is would a team trading is a starter want one as part of the return?

Other problem is... how much do we want to replace Teo/Lourdes's playing time with more Tapia/Zimmer (or spend more significant assets to replace the outgoing OF? I think it makes more sense to just simplify it and go straight prospects for pitching.
 
Can Biggio play full-ish time in the outfield? That's the only way I'd be remotely okay with an outfielder getting moved. God knows I don't need to watch more Tapia at bats and whatever Bradley Zimmer calls hitting.

You don't sell on Teoscar now but I think if you're going to move Gurriel, you have to do it while he's hot.
 
Can Biggio play full-ish time in the outfield? That's the only way I'd be remotely okay with an outfielder getting moved. God knows I don't need to watch more Tapia at bats and whatever Bradley Zimmer calls hitting.

You don't sell on Teoscar now but I think if you're going to move Gurriel, you have to do it while he's hot.
Lets be honest, Tapia is pretty close to an everyday player now under Montoyo.
 
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Horwitz cotinues to mash at AAA.

Might be an interesting LHB option in the next few seasons.

 
Question is do they see him as an option for the club, or as a trade chip? Hasn't played anything other than 1B/DH in AAA.

I have no idea and ya the position he plays doesnt really fit our team but looking at his stats in the minors, he's been a machine and it's somewhat suprising he's so far down our prospect rankings (I think MLB.com has him ranked #30).

carerer minor league stats

246 games played
.301 batting avg
.396 on base %
.872 OPS
very good BB to K rate
 
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I have no idea and ya the position he plays doesnt really fit our team but looking at his stats in the minors, he's been a machine and it's somewhat suprising he's so far down our prospect rankings (I think MLB.com has him ranked #30).

carerer minor league stats

246 games played
.301 batting avg
.396 on base %
.872 OPS
very good BB to K rate

Not completely surprising as evaluators aren't usually sold on the more advanced guys that lack projectability. I think BA was the only site that had Horwitz on their list and he was pretty high at 15. Nobody even had Frasso on their radar until FG reevaluated him after scouting a game he played in early May. Updated lists will probably have both guys as consensus top 15 prospects for the Jays.
 
The title of this thread may have been a jinx.

Yes, I know what people mean when they say voodoo. It's a dumb thing to say - and no less stupid when Nem says it.

A bullpen filled with good arms will almost always be reliable. A bullpen filled with trash will almost always be unreliable.

Excusing a bp composed of trash by dismissing bullpens as "voodoo" is ridiculous. It cost us a playoff spot last year and could do so this year.

In other words, a word used jokingly to refer to the wildness of bullpens has manifested some wild narrative where you assume people are blind to the issues with the Jays just because many of us have found a fun way to summarize it into a single word.

How silly.
 
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Exactly, which is why I don't want him to become a full on every day player lmao.

What we see is enough. Any more might cause me to fly to Toronto and hoof Charlie in the nads.

He's been a perfectly adequate 4th OF the last two months or so, but yeah... the problem isn't how he's playing it's how much he's playing. Move one of the corner OF and you get a bit more Tapia and, most likely, a lot more Zimmer. Ew.
 
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