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Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays fire manager Montoyo, Schneider takes over

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The bullpen thing is frustrating just because of the difference in what teams are researching/looking for.

As a couple people have said, bullpens can be super voodoo just because of how volatile they are. That's a completely fair point to be sure, but even then teams are targeting velocity and break (notice the uptick in relievers throwing super hard sinkers?)

Two of Baltimore's better relievers (Bautista, Lopez) are both hard throwing. Bautista with a fastball that tops out at 99 and Lopez with his sinker that can touch 98. Same with the Yankees. Damn near everyone in that pen throws a hard sinker.

Now you might say "well blitzkrug, the Yankees are a perfect example of vooodoo since most of their bullpen arms were pulled off the scrap heap!" You would be correct, but it also shows the Yankees are identifying something they like in these guys that they think they can utilize.

And therein lies the problem. All these teams are identifying this while the Blue Jays, for some reason or another have not figured it out.

Look at the Jays pen;

Romano: one of their best relievers who also happens to throw heat. Gee I wonder what makes him so formidable?

Garcia: has a sinker (93 mph average velocity) that he throws 13% of the time) alongside a mid 90s fastball. Has been up and down


Mayza: primarily throws a sinker that clocks in at just under 94 mph. Was really good until his last DL stint


Cimber: he's admittedly an anamoly since he's a side armer and they're generally not known for high velo. Still throws a sinker with wicked break thanks to his delivery.

For whatever reason, the Jays still think it's the early 2000s and have decided to fill their bullpen with guys who can't even crack mid 90s on their fastball when it is so blatantly obvious that's not the way anymore. These guys listed are basically an anamoly in that philosophy.

Shit even my diamond dynasty team shows this. If you don't have either a sinker or throw heat, you're basically worthless. Somehow everyone but the Jays have figured this out.


Edit: I suppose you could argue "yes but the Jays went with guys like Merriweather and probably would throw Pearson in the pen too! But even then that's flawed because it was pretty well known Merriweather had durability concerns so once again, thats a failure on management/scouting. Pearson obviously no one saw how he's panned out coming.
 
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Blitzkrug said:
The bullpen thing is frustrating just because of the difference in what teams are researching/looking for.

As a couple people have said, bullpens can be super voodoo just because of how volatile they are. That's a completely fair point to be sure, but even then teams are targeting velocity and break (notice the uptick in relievers throwing super hard sinkers?)

Two of Baltimore's better relievers (Bautista, Lopez) are both hard throwing. Bautista with a fastball that tops out at 99 and Lopez with his sinker that can touch 98. Same with the Yankees. Damn near everyone in that pen throws a hard sinker.

Now you might say "well blitzkrug, the Yankees are a perfect example of vooodoo since most of their bullpen arms were pulled off the scrap heap!" You would be correct, but it also shows the Yankees are identifying something they like in these guys that they think they can utilize.

And therein lies the problem. All these teams are identifying this while the Blue Jays, for some reason or another have not figured it out.

Look at the Jays pen;

Romano: one of their best relievers who also happens to throw heat. Gee I wonder what makes him so formidable?

Garcia: has a sinker (93 mph average velocity) that he throws 13% of the time) alongside a mid 90s fastball. Has been up and down


Mayza: primarily throws a sinker that clocks in at just under 94 mph. Was really good until his last DL stint


Cimber: he's admittedly an anamoly since he's a side armer and they're generally not known for high velo. Still throws a sinker with wicked break thanks to his delivery.

For whatever reason, the Jays still think it's the early 2000s and have decided to fill their bullpen with guys who can't even crack mid 90s on their fastball when it is so blatantly obvious that's not the way anymore. These guys listed are basically an anamoly in that philosophy.

Shit even my diamond dynasty team shows this. If you don't have either a sinker or throw heat, you're basically worthless. Somehow everyone but the Jays have figured this out.


Edit: I suppose you could argue "yes but the Jays went with guys like Merriweather and probably would throw Pearson in the pen too! But even then that's flawed because it was pretty well known Merriweather had durability concerns so once again, thats a failure on management/scouting. Pearson obviously no one saw how he's panned out coming.
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You've put together a proper argument on how to constitute a good bp in the modern game...and yet for some reason you still gave credence to the "bp is voodoo" talk.

BP is not voodoo. If it was, our BP would preform well one of these years through said voodoo - but it hasn't.

We don't develop quality BP arms (except for Romano), we don't have the capability to spot talent from the scrapheap, we don't trade for any elite bp arms, and we don't spend any FA money on the pen (dead last in the league in % of cap spent on the pen this year. Close to last the year prior). And then we act shocked when our BP stinks. We have Romo pitching in leverage now. What do people expect?

Overall you're right though - it's a philosophical failing. We go after the wrong pitchers, and we're financially stingy in (imo) in the one area where a team should never be stingy.
 
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So the Orioles are on their way to another win, inching closer to .500. They could be 2 games back of the Jays by this evening. I thought their offense would be better than this and maybe they're due for some regression there, but the pitching has been surprisingly solid. Not sure how long they can keep it up, but they're definitely not an easy win anymore.

Side note: the Angels are an absolute dumpster fire.
 
Brock Boeser Laser Show said:
That fan needs a foul ball to the face

Nothing worse than self entitled fans that can dish it but can't take it.
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another clout chaser trying to get free shit for being sensitive and a shit disturber your actions have a reaction 30 years ago a player may have just rifled a ball at the guys head or jumped up on top of the dugout and called him on. now a verbal response to a rude p.o.s heckler is news.
 
Kurtz said:
You've put together a proper argument on how to constitute a good bp in the modern game...and yet for some reason you still gave credence to the "bp is voodoo" talk.

BP is not voodoo. If it was, our BP would preform well one of these years through said voodoo - but it hasn't.

We don't develop quality BP arms (except for Romano), we don't have the capability to spot talent from the scrapheap, we don't trade for any elite bp arms, and we don't spend any FA money on the pen (dead last in the league in % of cap spent on the pen this year. Close to last the year prior). And then we act shocked when our BP stinks. We have Romo pitching in leverage now. What do people expect?

Overall you're right though - it's a philosophical failing. We go after the wrong pitchers, and we're financially stingy in (imo) in the one area where a team should never be stingy.
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Bullpen is definitely Voodoo in the sense of how volatile the role can be. Look at a guy like Craig Kimbrel for example.

Went from lockdown to Atlanta, to shit in San Diego, back to lockdown in Boston, back to shit in Chicago, then back to good, then back to shit again.

Sometimes you can bring in a stud arm for the pen and just have said arm implode on itself. That's what I mean by Voodoo.

Kind of a bad turn of phrase, my bad.
 
I could see them canning Montoyo as the team goes into the break. No reason to fire him now when you have a multi-day break coming up.

Great way to reset imo.
 
Suntouchable13 said:
That's fair, but I feel like we need someone with fresh ideas from outside of the organization. Someone that knows what it takes to win. Although, maybe that person is not out there. I don't know.
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I mean.....Nick Nurse was Dwayne Casey's assistant, wasn't he?
 
Suntouchable13 said:
That's fair, but I feel like we need someone with fresh ideas from outside of the organization. Someone that knows what it takes to win. Although, maybe that person is not out there. I don't know.
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I just don't think it is fair to paint the other coaches with the managers flaws. I am not trying to say you hand the keys to the franchise to Schneider but I think if we get rid of Montoyo he is the obvious choice to step in for the rest of the season. If it works then he stays if not we find our new manager in the off season.
 
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I will say for as much as i demand change, i will acknowledge that tomorrow is absolutely not the time to do it.

The team has already had a tough week as is and i can't imagine going to a funeral is going to do much to boost morale. Let Charlie finish out the skid and then boot him during the break.
 
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