Blue Jays Discussion: Blue Jays fire manager Montoyo, Schneider takes over

[LaP]

This team should be better than this. I only have faith in two of their starters, the bullpen hasn’t been good enough, and Springer, Bichette, Vladdy and Teoscar can all be better. It’s frustrating because this team is capable of being better than they are.

The whole team can do better. There's maybe 3-5 guys who are performing at the max of what you should expect.

I said two years ago that Atkins remembered me Marc Bergevin and i got blasted around here but he still reminds me Marc Bergevin i.e. not a bad GM but one that try to fix holes with spare parts and is unwilling to pay the price to address the needs of his team. Also a GM that is way too patient with his coaches. Montoyo should not be coaching this team anymore in my book. Also lack of clear direction ... well unless you call trying to win games with homeruns and strikeouts a direction.

Vlad and Bo are still young but Subban and Price were still young when people defended Bergevin. Time flies and every season with a bad bullpen, bad coach, no small ball always trying to hit the homerun, bunch of strikeouts... is a wasted season. Flame me.

 

[TGB]

It's the half way point! Let's see how predictions list is turning out:

JAYS: 94-97 wins-No reason yet why this can't happen.

TEAM MVP (mathematically) SPRINGER-Um...so far no, but hey, still lots of season left.

ACTUAL MVP: MANOAH-Bang on. Had a couple rough games lately, but still, bang on.

STRIPLING VS. RYU VS. KIKUCHI: Not on the list, but a lot of people were dismissing Stripling early one while praising Ryu and Kik because Walker (it's roughly on the same page as this list). I stated Stripling of the three was the most likely to actually be worth his contract. Essentially, my picks for pitching this year was Manoah and Stripling. Bang on.

TEAM TOP DEFENDER-It's actually been more like Espinal, but we're talking about splitting hairs. Chapman is still way up there. And it was kind of a cheap guess anyway.

MOST IMPROVED: BIGGIO-He's lost a lot of playing time, but if he keeps up his current pace...bang on.

BREAKOUT: ESPINAL-He's cooled down a lot, but in terms of WAR, yeah, sure, bang on.

OVERPERFORMS: GURRIEL-He's hitting better lately, but he would have to have done that ALL YEAR to "over perform". So, no, but this one was more of a guess anyway.

UNDERPERFORMS (relatively, like hit just 280 or so): VLADDY-Bang on.

ACTUALLY UNDERPERFORMS: RYU-More of a "biggest disappointment" entry, but still, bang on albeit not for the reason I intended; however, unlike the Tapia steals thing, I fully expected injuries to play a large part in it, so this one counts.

MOST HOME RUNS (and RBIs): SPRINGER-Nope, but this could change.

MOST STEALS: TAPIA-Nope. It's actually Springer. Which is weird because I don't think I've seen him steal a base all season. Funny.

MOST ANYTHING RELATED TO RELIEF-Despite not being serious, I ended up being bang on about the situation being wild.

MOST LIKELY TO MAKE ME EAT CROW: JANSEN-So many injuries, but for a while there...yep. Bang on.


Looking good! Even if things were to end as they are now, it would still be very good. And that Vladdy being eaten up by away pitching and grounding out a ton thing from all the way back at the beginning of the season is practically worth it all by itself.

 

[CherryToke]

Jays had a better record than the Braves last year..... Should Shapiro have moved the team to the NL East?

No but he could try building a competent bullpen for once. The Braves have an elite bullpen just like every other real contender.

 

[TGB]

Don't be surprised if the Jays trade the farm this year to "go for it".

They can't trade their position players because too many are playing well enough that it would be too costly to upgrade them and the Jays don't have enough interesting prospects to cover them immediately aside from Moreno, but they seriously need to address their pitching. We all WANT to see a catcher get dealt for pitching, but Jansen could potentially stabilize the pitching rotation and Moreno clearly needs more experience. Stripling is probably the only overperforming older player on an expiring contract worth dealing, but the Jays NEED him. So that leaves the minors, and most of the top ones are infielders, positions the Jays are full of.

So, yeah, expect a LOT of prospects to be dealt for relievers or a starter. Outside of Tiedman and Moreno, it's their most spendable assets. Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if they deal Pearson (assuming he isn't restricted due to injury). Perpetually theoretical good pitcher for a good pitcher you can use NOW? And even if you get burned, you still have Stripling and Ryu next year? Yeah, it's possible.

 

[Larcos_Unal]

 

[TheBeastCoast]

People act like sports team management is playing video games and it's just 100% player transactions.

And it just isn't. Most of sports management is people managing. Leadership. Getting a group on the same page. Extracting maximum performance from players. Putting people in positions to succeed. Turning your roster into a finely tuned machine chugging toward a goal with all the pieces moving in unison.

AA was hit-and-miss on a transactional level but has nailed it now with 2 different organizations in terms of turning asset value into actual direction and actually contending. Shatkins seem like really smart baseball guys ... but they can't seem to put together a roster that is more than the sum of its parts, and this team has been spinning its wheels for 2 years now since playing a playoff game in 2020.

You can feel it when a team really has the wind in their sails and this team most definitely does not.

We won over 90 games last year. Spinning our wheels for two years lol this years team has absolutely been frustrating to watch so far with the amount of underperformances from players that should and can be better and our pitching situation going tits up. To me the biggest things that can be held accountable on Shapiro/Atkins are the bullpen, you need to have swing and miss in your pen at this point and not targeting it is a mistake full stop. Montoyo, I get the guys love him but I still don't think he is the guy we will win with. They have gone out and added major additions to our lineup and rotation each year. Injuries and guys performing well below what should be reasonably expected isn't held on the front office to me anyways,

 

[TheTotalPackage]

After last year's trailer, wasn't expecting this to be an unexciting horror movie halfway through the screening.

 

[Eyedea]

#1 Jorge Soler - 2021 MLB Postseason MVP (aquired via trade)
#2 Eddie Rosario - 2021 MLB NLCS MVP(aquired via trade)

Adam Duvall was a nice addition too. I could go on. They also have a possible rookie of the year in Michael Harris. Their pitching depth is miles ahead of the Jays.

Meanwhile Shatkins is signing losers like Ryu and Kikuchi.

Right, Jorge Soler being one of the biggest enigma's in the league and producing a 79 wRC+ in 2021 prior to joining the Braves. If you're citing him, you shouldn't complain about the idea of acquiring "spare parts" that have tantalizing toolsets. This was the Acuna replacement. If Vladdy went down and Atkins went out and got Jesus Aguilar to replace him for the postseason run, I don't think people will be praising the move. Eddie Rosario and Adam Duvall, great hitters on their run, how are they doing now for them? Sunk costs. Just like Marcell Ozuna, and now Will Smith. Plus he bought out Joc who has been great for SF this season. Forget about losing Freeman your team icon. Yes I understand agents get in the way of the Freeman deal, but AA had to go out and spend his top assets on a new 1B (Olson).

Their bullpen is elite, I'll give you that. But I don't see how we can fault Atkins for targeting the waiver wire when AA lived off it when he was here. It's as if people forget how the team operated under AA/Beeston. Yes there's been risk these past two seasons with Berrios (still think he gets it together) and Kikuchi, and of course the bullpen, but without this current front office you likely don't see the team competing these past few years and sustaining it indefinitely. The Jays have never been more prominent on the IFA market, they've drafted/traded for young players and developed well, they have been willing to take on salary for prospect capital, they've dipped into free agency and made major signings, and they've also signed reclamation projects and flipped them or received comp picks. Not to mention the money invested into overhauling their Dunedin complex. For all the shit these guys get, they've helped bring the Jays back into the forefront of player development to become one of the most premier organizations in the league.

People act like sports team management is playing video games and it's just 100% player transactions.

And it just isn't. Most of sports management is people managing. Leadership. Getting a group on the same page. Extracting maximum performance from players. Putting people in positions to succeed. Turning your roster into a finely tuned machine chugging toward a goal with all the pieces moving in unison.

AA was hit-and-miss on a transactional level but has nailed it now with 2 different organizations in terms of turning asset value into actual direction and actually contending. Shatkins seem like really smart baseball guys ... but they can't seem to put together a roster that is more than the sum of its parts, and this team has been spinning its wheels for 2 years now since playing a playoff game in 2020.

You can feel it when a team really has the wind in their sails and this team most definitely does not.

How does this lower your opinion of Shapiro and Atkins? Shapiro was constantly poached by MLB organizations for his front office talent in Cleveland. They may not have had the same success as the post 2007 Rays but they operated extremely efficiently and Moneyball'd their way to a few postseason runs. They've also done nothing but improve the organization since they've been brought on. From aesthetic improvements to the dome, to player developments in Dunedin. The contention window for this team just started. Yes there have been bumps, but they're currently a +1.5 on the 2021 Jays at this point in the season.

 

[Eyedea]

The whole team can do better. There's maybe 3-5 guys who are performing at the max of what you should expect.

I said two years ago that Atkins remembered me Marc Bergevin and i got blasted around here but he still reminds me Marc Bergevin i.e. not a bad GM but one that try to fix holes with spare parts and is unwilling to pay the price to address the needs of his team. Also a GM that is way too patient with his coaches. Montoyo should not be coaching this team anymore in my book. Also lack of clear direction ... well unless you call trying to win games with homeruns and strikeouts a direction.

Vlad and Bo are still young but Subban and Price were still young when people defended Bergevin. Time flies and every season with a bad bullpen, bad coach, no small ball always trying to hit the homerun, bunch of strikeouts... is a wasted season. Flame me.

Is it really just strikeouts and home runs if they are:

BA: 3rd
OBP: 5th
SLG: 2nd
wRC+: 4th
K%: 10th
EV: 1st
xBA: 1st


If you're going to argue this point you should probably look at the state of baseball as a whole. You want to see strikeouts and homeruns? Atlanta has the 3rd highest K% and the 2nd most home runs. They also have 0 sac hits and 0 bunt hits. Talk about a lack of small ball!

 

[Blitzkrug]

Those are all horrendous and i'm not sure which one is the worst.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Eyedea]

Those are all horrendous and i'm not sure which one is the worst.

Probably the fact that they had to drop the requirements to >60 IP because he doesn't qualify for the innings limit. Walks are obviously bad but he can definitely hide or limit the damage with his solid whiff rate. Only problem is when batters connect they destroy his pitches, with his EV being 1mph higher than the 2nd last player (92.8 to 91.8) and he has a 16.1% barrel rate against him. For comparison there are 11 qualified hitters with a 92.8mph EV or higher, and 10 hitters have a barrel rate of 16.1% or higher.

 

[Beaumaris]

This team should be better than this. I only have faith in two of their starters, the bullpen hasn’t been good enough, and Springer, Bichette, Vladdy and Teoscar can all be better. It’s frustrating because this team is capable of being better than they are.

Not a clutch guy amongst them.

 

[Discoverer]

Is it really just strikeouts and home runs if they are:

BA: 3rd
OBP: 5th
SLG: 2nd
wRC+: 4th
K%: 10th
EV: 1st
xBA: 1st


If you're going to argue this point you should probably look at the state of baseball as a whole. You want to see strikeouts and homeruns? Atlanta has the 3rd highest K% and the 2nd most home runs. They also have 0 sac hits and 0 bunt hits. Talk about a lack of small ball!

It's amazing that this garbage is still going on. Remember in 2015 when people said the Jays were too much of an "all or none" team while they were actually among the best in the league in BB%, K%, OBP, HR, and pretty much everything else? People are dumb.

Over the last three years, two teams have struck out less than the Jays. Two. That's it. And yet, somehow, people still think they're a team that just hits HR and strikes out all the time. They're 6th in OBP in that time, ahead of the Yankees and Braves and Mets and Padres and and a few other teams people seem to wish the Jays offense was more like.

Not a clutch guy amongst them.

You may not be familiar with George Springer. You should look him up.

 

[Discoverer]

I do understand why people are so frustrated with the team recently, but it's amazing how incapable some people are of having a little perspective. I would have thought people who have watched the Jays for so long would realize that the team isn't defined by whatever they've done over the last couple weeks (or, to be honest, even half a season).

They're a really talented (and probably underperforming) team with some obvious holes (primarily in the bullpen) that I think we would all be shocked if they didn't address over the next few weeks. They're also currently in a playoff spot with a 2.5 game cushion, half a game back of TB, 1.5 back of Boston for the first Wild Card spot, a game ahead of where they were at this point last year and in 2016, and two games ahead of 2015. Yet people are reacting like this is 2013 all over again or something.

 

[Eyedea]

It's amazing that this garbage is still going on. Remember in 2015 when people said the Jays were too much of an "all or none" team while they were actually among the best in the league in BB%, K%, OBP, HR, and pretty much everything else? People are dumb.

Over the last three years, two teams have struck out less than the Jays. Two. That's it. And yet, somehow, people still think they're a team that just hits HR and strikes out all the time. They're 6th in OBP in that time, ahead of the Yankees and Braves and Mets and Padres and and a few other teams people seem to wish the Jays offense was more like.



You may not be familiar with George Springer. You should look him up.

It's like people think baseball players should be wired to never swing or miss.

Biggio, Teo, Chap, and Bichette are the only guys getting consistent PAs that are worse than the league average K%. Springer, Vlad, Tapia, Gurriel, Espinal, Moreno, and Kirk, all better than the average. And that doesn't take into account whiffs, where Teo, Springer, and Bichette are the only guys worse than league average (Vladdy's around the average), and then for contact rate Chapman, Springer, and Teo are the only ones below average.

 

[TGB]

Seeing how much of the team's core is under control for the next three years, I more certain we can expect to see the Jays go for it. Now is the time to spend those prospects.

Not a clutch guy amongst them.

They were very clutch at the beginning of the season.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[hockeywiz542]

Vanderbilt's Spencer Jones could be the MLB draft's powerful, fast, late-blooming steal

Jones possesses both speed and power and has been called an “outlier athlete” by one scouting service. Can he sneak into the first round?

theathletic.com

“His future is well ahead of him, and you can’t say that about every kid,” Corbin said. “Sometimes they max themselves out. You can’t say that about Spencer. He’s just starting to climb the stairs right now. I think 10 years from now we’re going to look back and say, ‘Whoa, what a big-league career he’s having.’”

Well before that, we’ll see if the MLB draft perpetuates the thought. To summarize it in a question: How good can a 6-foot-7, 230-pound outfielder with a unique combination of speed and power, called an “outlier athlete” by one scouting service, who just posted a .370/.460/1.103 line with 12 homers as a Vanderbilt junior, in his first healthy season after elbow injuries delayed his career and ended his pitching hopes, who just turned 21 and just started packing muscle onto his frame, be?

“First round? I don’t know,” said Jones, who is ranked the No. 79 prospect in the draft on Keith Law’s big board for The Athletic but has a path (and a rising mock-draft profile) that suggests he could be some team’s early surprise. “Like, this is just the next step on the ladder, right? I know I’m good. So hopefully we’re gonna find a happy union at some point.”

The team that extends its hand will be acting on a lot of information from the past year while hoping the biggest knock on Jones — he “still swings and misses in the zone too often,” Law wrote — continues to diminish after he brought his strikeout rate from 30 percent as a sophomore down to 23.5 percent as a junior. Go back a year and questions prevailed.

A few of them came from Brewster (Mass.) Whitecaps coach Jamie Shevchik in a phone call as Jones closed in on one of the main goals he had when he chose Vanderbilt — to play center field for the Whitecaps, in the same town where his grandparents live and where he loved watching the Whitecaps play as a kid. Shevchik told him he’d be able to play center field and lead off. After a successful, confidence-building, championship-winning summer, Shevchik thanked Jones for his contributions and reminded him of that initial phone call.

“He told me, ‘I thought you were gonna suck,’” Jones said of Shevchik. “He’s a JUCO coach, too. He takes a lot of stock in how people sound. He thought I sounded too soft.”

There’s a laid-back vibe to Jones, but from the time his father laid a foundation by getting him lessons on proper running form as a young child in Encinitas, Calif., he has projected athletic excellence. Basketball and football made way for baseball, and though hitting was Jones’ true love, he was a coveted two-way, left-handed prospect who was no sure bet to end up on the Vanderbilt campus in the fall of 2019. Two years earlier, USA Baseball testing administered by Matt Pajak of the Prospect Development Pipeline indicated an extraordinary mix of gifts.

 

[justloveleafs]

I called the peak of Guerrero, he should have been traded for a cornocupia of assets a la Lindros.

And that ridiculous home run jacket, should have been burned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 50 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Baltimore Oriole cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy Blue Jay garb.

Why wear the brand of a bird, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

 

[Starry Knight]

I called the peak of Guerrero, he should have been traded for a cornocupia of assets a la Lindros.

And that ridiculous home run jacket, should have been burned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 50 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Baltimore Oriole cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy Blue Jay garb.

Why wear the brand of a bird, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

Everyone knows baseball players peak at age 23.

 

[Seath The Scaleless]

I called the peak of Guerrero, he should have been traded for a cornocupia of assets a la Lindros.

And that ridiculous home run jacket, should have been burned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 50 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Baltimore Oriole cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy Blue Jay garb.

Why wear the brand of a bird, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

I called the peak of Soto. He should have been traded for a cornucopia of assets a la Donaldson.

And that ridiculous dance, should have been banned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 30 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Jacksonville Jumbo Shrimp cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy National garb.

Why wear the brand of a letter, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

 

[Canada4Gold]

Gabby Martinez back from injury hits a HR in his first game back. Orelvis got 2 HR tonight

 

[Maplebeasts]

I called the peak of Guerrero, he should have been traded for a cornocupia of assets a la Lindros.

And that ridiculous home run jacket, should have been burned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 50 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Baltimore Oriole cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy Blue Jay garb.

Why wear the brand of a bird, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

Why not just stop watching games? I mean clearly you're not enjoying yourself.

 

[dredeye]

I called the peak of Guerrero, he should have been traded for a cornocupia of assets a la Lindros.

And that ridiculous home run jacket, should have been burned.

Its a joke of a franchise. Now. I would have traded at the all time high and I called it here.

But dumb corps, like BRAND, and they somehow thought some fluke, carrying 50 lbs of fat, was a BRAND.

Anyways, its over.

I am bringing out my favourite cap, a first year ever, Baltimore Oriole cap, going to wear it, once a week.

I have too much hair to wear a dumb cap for the most part. But I have never worn the goofy Blue Jay garb.

Why wear the brand of a bird, that looks good, but sounds like crap?

This is about the most bizarre thing I think I’ve ever read here. I’ve been well annoyed by this team so far this year and I also hate the jacket but man wow. What a weird rant you went on. Draft day today. Maybe hockey is your sport