HFsNumber1Heel
FKA Roo Returns...Still A Contrarian Apparently
Leetch being injured for those playoffs didn't help at all.
The following year Kissio playing on one leg made matters even worse.
Bernie Nicholls dirty play at the end of game 6 1994 ECF
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Leetch being injured for those playoffs didn't help at all.
The following year Kissio playing on one leg made matters even worse.
HFsNumber1Heel
FKA Roo Returns...Still A Contrarian Apparently
Nichols was a very good Ranger who could have been so much more. Hey, Tom Hanks wore his jersey on SNL lol.
The thing about him was he was a classic 1980s player. Never cared about fitness. Beezer was on MSG's The Vault when they were talking about the Outdoor Game on fake ice in September 1991 that the Rangers-Kings did in Vegas and he said Nicholls was allergic to working out other than golf.
He didn't have that burning desire to win and he was also kind of a weird personality in the media not really suited for NY.
The thing about him was he was a classic 1980s player. Never cared about fitness. Beezer was on MSG's The Vault when they were talking about the Outdoor Game on fake ice in September 1991 that the Rangers-Kings did in Vegas and he said Nicholls was allergic to working out other than golf.
He didn't have that burning desire to win and he was also kind of a weird personality in the media not really suited for NY.
pld459666
Registered User
Hes got some numbers.
1200 pts in 1127 games.
114pts in 118 po games
Numerous seasons of a point a game, Kings, Rangers, Oilers and Blackhawks so it's not so reliant on any other player specifically like his 150pt season was.
I wouldn't be surprised if he got in
eco's bones
Registered User
Better player than Clark Gillies for sure. Last year Guy Carbonneau---to me that was really pushing it too. There are some recent former Rangers to me who have a legit shot and typically most people will think of Richter and Graves but I'm kind of thinking of Nicholls, Larmer and Kovalev--maybe even Lowe.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
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Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Bernie Nicholls is a guy who gets knocked for not necessarily being a guy you win with, and for being a guy that's widely seen as doing his best work as a supporting actor. It's not necessarily completely accurate, or fair, but it's the challenge he faces.
During his playing days, he was seen as a guy who could give a very good amount of offense, especially on weaker teams where his production was one of the few highlights. But there was a perception that if you wanted to have success with Nicholls on your team, you either had to put a star in front of him or a star next to him. Beyond that, there was the perception that Nicholls was one of those guys who did his best work on bad teams. In other words, when teams would take the next step, it was usually by implementing a system or utilizing players who fit that system better than Nichols could. That perception was born from his departures from LA, NY, and even (to an extent) NJ. In other words, he was the guy you either traded for the pieces that took you to the next level, or the guy you rolled out there right before your team hit the next level.
In other words, if someone is building a championship team, a GM wouldn't go out and say "get me a Bernie Nicholls" or "Bernie Nicholls type" to build around.
During his playing days, he was seen as a guy who could give a very good amount of offense, especially on weaker teams where his production was one of the few highlights. But there was a perception that if you wanted to have success with Nicholls on your team, you either had to put a star in front of him or a star next to him. Beyond that, there was the perception that Nicholls was one of those guys who did his best work on bad teams. In other words, when teams would take the next step, it was usually by implementing a system or utilizing players who fit that system better than Nichols could. That perception was born from his departures from LA, NY, and even (to an extent) NJ. In other words, he was the guy you either traded for the pieces that took you to the next level, or the guy you rolled out there right before your team hit the next level.
In other words, if someone is building a championship team, a GM wouldn't go out and say "get me a Bernie Nicholls" or "Bernie Nicholls type" to build around.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
It's not the Hall of Very Good. Was there are a point when you said that Nicholls was a top-10 player in the Game? No hardware. I don't see it.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
That's my mindset, and yet there's Dave Andreychuk celebrating his third anniversary of being in the HOF.
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
Agree. Another guy who you never consider to be a top 10 player in the game. Andreychuk played about 500 more games than Nichols. A true compiler.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
He's always been an enigma to me.
During his playing days he was often criticized for not playing up to his size, or focusing on areas without the puck, or for stepping up during the playoffs.
In a given year, he was never seen as a top 10 player in the game, and in many cases, would've struggled to make a top 10 list of wings. He wasn't necessarily a power forward whose impact went beyond the stat sheet. Nor was he ever seen as a dynamic player. He was just kind of always there. Steady, but unspectacular, and for a fairly long time.
But when I think back about top players, or even players that really defined an era or were at least re-occuring characters in the narrative, I don't think of guys like Andreychuk or or Nicholls.
I think what saved Andreychuk was that he was well-liked and was able to play on some winning teams in his 30s, where he didn't have to be a main cog.
Larrybiv
We're CLEAN, we PROMISE!
One of the main reasons why we need the NHL to restart as soon as possible. We need new memories, because God only knows with my memory, reliving the past is a "distant memory". Let's put it this way, I actually do remember that, but not with all the specifics that you guys have down pat.
Maximus
Registered User
Funny I'm a bit late to the party here and just reading this Nicholls thread now and when I first read your comment that he "might be a hall of famer one day" I was like no f'n way what the heck is my boy Eco talking about....lol
I than proceeded to go to old reliable the Hockey Reference website and looked at his stats and they were better than I thought. He was more than a point a game guy with a 475-734-1209 points in 1127 games which is quite good. He also had 114 points in 118 playoff games which is pretty awesome as well.
That said, when I employ the eyeball test as I'm old enough to have watched him his entire career as you are as well Eco, NEVER once did I say when watching Nicholls play, did I say that "dang that dude is a hall of famer....never". He was a very good player no doubt but tho the Hall of Fame has made some questionable inductions lately which I'm not going to go into right now as that's a different thread, it's not the Hall of the Very Good for a reason.
As a comparison for example, Alexander Mogilny, another guy who played during Nicholls era, and who is also right on the cusp of being a Hall of Famer, did pass the eyeball test with me, but he also, as great and talented an skilled as he was, unlikely won't get in mostly because he suffered too many injuries during his career too compile the kind of stats necessary to get in.
IMO he's a tad short of making it IMO and will likely never get in. But still, his stats are much better than I ever thought and I have to say even when was a Ranger, 110 points in 103 games was pretty dang good.
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eco's bones
Registered User
For me there are guys that shouldn't be in the Hall that Nicholls was a better player than. Clark Gillies for instance has 697 points and was carried most of his career by being on the same line as Trottier and Bossy. I mean if that's the case--WTF--why not Vic Hadfield? I really did not like Carbonneau or Nedomansky last year. Nicholls fits in the HOF like Bernie Federko or Glenn Anderson. It's kind of like--well okay.....and Anderson wasn't really a better player than Steve Larmer. He just happened to be on all those Oiler teams so he won a bunch of Cups.
This year--I can see Iginla and Mogilny the most by the way.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
For guys on the fringe, championships usually put them over the top when it comes to hockey.
Had Larmer spent the 80s on the Oilers, he's probably in, even with the same stat line.
If Anderson spent the 80s with Winnipeg, he's probably not in.
Gilles doesn't get in as a Whaler, but he gets in as an Islander, etc. etc. etc.
Had Larmer spent the 80s on the Oilers, he's probably in, even with the same stat line.
If Anderson spent the 80s with Winnipeg, he's probably not in.
Gilles doesn't get in as a Whaler, but he gets in as an Islander, etc. etc. etc.
NYSPORTS
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no deal Neil landed Bernie and then Mike Gartner. Was a fun year until they broke our hearts again.
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Boris Zubov
No relation to Sergei, Joe
eco's bones
Registered User
Larmer 1012 points in 1006 regular season games. 131 points in 140 playoff games. An average skater but a gritty and great two way player. Played all situations. Very consistent and IMO an unsung hero on the Rangers 1994 Stanley Cup team.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Incredibly underrated component of that team. He also retired on the slightly earlier side because of his back.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
To this day I am impressed by how thoroughly he was blackballed in the NHL and almost forgotten by history.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
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lol, Colorado matching the Sakic offer was the best thing that happened to hockey IMO. The Rangers would have bought teams the same way the Yankees did for years.
Boris Zubov
No relation to Sergei, Joe
Smith had a bipolar tenure as GM here...basically a tale of two halves. The first half he was all about scouting & building through the draft. Signing some proven vets who were role players while waiting for the kids to develop. Until now, the late 80s/early 90s was the deepest prospect pool the Rangers ever had.
Unfortunately, it started to go south at the '94 deadline & he completely lost his way after we won the Cup. First it was one bad trade after another, to go along with a terrible Head Coach hiring mixed in. Then he went full Steinbrenner in free agency & it was a complete shit show. Giving him an unlimited budget was the final nail in the coffin. It took him away from his biggest strength, which was scouting young talent.
All the moves that went right for him in the early years of his tenure went the other way. If you list all the major screw ups, it would be tough to rank them.
Trading Gartner
Trading Amonte
Hiring Colin Campbell
Trading for Petr Nedved then trading him away a year later
Trading Zubov
Trading Matty Norstrom for Kurri McSorely Churla
Letting Pat Verbeek walk
Signing a 36 y/o Gretzky, then letting Messier walk the next summer
The John Muckler era
Drafting Malhotra
Trading Kovalev
The debacle that became the '99 draft
It's a still miracle we won the cup in '94, but that team should've been set up for a few more serious runs. Brian Leetch's prime was basically wasted.
I will admit regardless of bad he was at the end, Smith still deserved another chance somewhere.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I think that last line sums it up. Yeah, he had good and bad, but at the end of the day he still won a cup with a core that included a mix of home grown talent, or talent he acquired with the depth he assembled.
Was it best for him and the Rangers to move on? Yes. But you’d think someone, somewhere, would’ve given him another shot.
There are a lot of people who got second and third chances who didn’t accomplishment half of what Smith did.
NYR94
Registered User
He definitely deserves another chance, especially after what happened with the Isles. Didn't they hire him, try to get him to take orders from some weird committee and then he resigned/was fired just weeks later? Just really disrespectful the way they treated him.
Certain GMs in this league have had super long tenures with their teams with no championships to show for it, like Wilson and Poile. Smith has actually won a Cup but doesn't have an NHL GM job. Say what you want about what could have been had the Rangers held on to Gartner, Amonte, Norstrom, etc., but when he had a top team Smith wasn't afraid to make some moves and actually win it all.
Certain GMs in this league have had super long tenures with their teams with no championships to show for it, like Wilson and Poile. Smith has actually won a Cup but doesn't have an NHL GM job. Say what you want about what could have been had the Rangers held on to Gartner, Amonte, Norstrom, etc., but when he had a top team Smith wasn't afraid to make some moves and actually win it all.
AlternateSideParking
Registered User
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What hurt Smith was his drafting, which is what he was known for on the Island and Detroit. Outside of 1990 and a few late gems he never came close to Patrick, who for all intents and purposes built the 1994 team as well.
As far as Nicholls, people forget he was a star before Gretzky came. He was close to an elite player in his prime and had some big playoff performances with every team he played for. He made the Rangers so much better even before the Gartner trade (I think his first stretch was a successful West Coast trip where he outplayed Messier in a win over Edmonton and beat Gretzky in LA). Huge deal at the time and made the Rangers a dangerous two-line team.
To me, that holds weight when a guy shows up and changes the dynamic almost instantly. And he definitely didn't want to be traded.
As far as Nicholls, people forget he was a star before Gretzky came. He was close to an elite player in his prime and had some big playoff performances with every team he played for. He made the Rangers so much better even before the Gartner trade (I think his first stretch was a successful West Coast trip where he outplayed Messier in a win over Edmonton and beat Gretzky in LA). Huge deal at the time and made the Rangers a dangerous two-line team.
To me, that holds weight when a guy shows up and changes the dynamic almost instantly. And he definitely didn't want to be traded.
NYSPORTS
back afta dis. . .
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Smith did miss on a lot of 1st Rounders and beyond. Both the Nicholls and Messier trades were the big ones while Smith’ comically and embarrassing botched up by forgetting to protect 25 year old Ray Sheppard who scored 24 goals with our Rangers and then went on to score goals in mid 30’s and a 50 goal season. The 94 trade off was Keenan i believe as Smith apparently loved the team.
Afterwards, with no Keenan, Smith he got trade happy IMO. His trades were ridiculous and his drafts were terrible. Trade or keep Nedved? Losing Zubov who was great with Leetch, etc. His desperation move was Sakic and Colorado matching was applauded throughout hockey.
As far as overall drafting, it’s mediocre across the board. Smith brought in Nichols who was a star. Patrick was ok yet never landed the star. Patrick may have build a champion though as he did well during and after the Rangers. Can’t recall why Patrick lost his GM position yet we know Espo came in and botched up everything with the Bergeron situation.
Lets hope our current GM makes us forget about our drafting history. lol, although Lias Andersson and Kraskov leaving Hartford wasn’t a great start. At least Kraskov returned.
Time will tell.
