Player Discussion Auston Matthews (Captain Edition)

[thewave]

One of Marner or him need to go this off season.

That or the only other thing that I can see is make Matthews wait until the season to have the wrist surgery, LTIR him until the playoffs, sign Bennet and run an insanely stacked team come playoff time

If you are even considering this. You stick with the C that has rockets, is already signed and also has a track record of playing well with Nylander too.

 

[NVious]

If you are even considering this. You stick with the C that has rockets, is already signed and also has a track record of playing well with Nylander too.

Only problem is how much of a bandaid he is and how much he sucks in the playoffs.

He and Marner's play both go down a ton in terms of season to playoff performance, but to add to that Matthews is now turning into Glassews? Not a good look to say the least.

 

[thewave]

Only problem is how much of a bandaid he is and how much he sucks in the playoffs.

He and Marner's play both go down a ton in terms of season to playoff performance, but to add to that Matthews is now turning into Glassews? Not a good look to say the least.

Yeah but Marner is a dog stepping on a toothpick away from his body breaking in a series with serious contact.

 

[Stephen]

A Matthews vs Marner debate is pretty interesting and not at all straight forward if you only could keep one.

Marner sounds like a guy who wants to be living in the overpaid prestige territory which is unattractive. His regular season offense seems a lot more economical than Matthews, and feels like he has more durability to coast at a higher level longer into his 30s. He gets you into the playoffs on cruise control but come playoffs he’s not a leading man. Four Nations tells us he could be the little facilitator who helps your alpha gut out a win. But he’s not the straw that stirs the drink.

In theory Matthews is that alpha but it just doesn’t seem like he’s living up to that benchmark. Plus with his mystery health… have we exited his prime years?

 

[TMLAM34]

If it’s a Matthews vs Marner debate, you keep the center over the winger all day every day…

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Laughton and Lorentz have been fine in their roles

I am ok with Laughton but Lorentz is either banged up or he likes his old team a bit too much. He has had chances to nail people a bit and never takes it. I hope it's injury and not feelings that is causing it. The FLA team doesn't think too highly of ex-team members by they way they did Stolarz a dirty.

 

[therealkoho]

Then I’m sure you’re aware of the power of stem cells and drinking urine as well.

Your own or someone else's?

Asking for a friend.

 

[therealkoho]

Got a frat boy for a captain. But can't blame Matthews, he didn't nominate himself for that role...

Maybe it was conditional, I get the "C" you get the signature.

I see him as that transactional.

 

[therealkoho]

$13.25 to be sassy in interviews and go out for a fun skate with his BFF.

I don't think the Matthews Marner bromance is what it may have been once.. It's more a marriage of convenience these days.

 

[Ports]

4 year deal is perhaps the best deal in disguise for the Leafs.

Exactly what I thought when it was signed. If he doesn’t lead them to a cup or close to it, they need to move on from him. Maybe even sooner than when it expires.

 

[SwissLeaf]

He will score 2 tomorrow!

 

[Ports]

He doesn’t impose himself on the game. He never has in the playoffs. In the most physical games, he tries to find little opportunities to poke check or steal a puck from the wrong side without using his body and avoids really battling it out for position around the net. He is the complete opposite on Knies who’s also a big man but uses his size to his advantage. Matthews as well as Marner unfortunately are just timid players who look to the referee to protect them instead of pushing back and showing that they are prepared to do whatever it takes to win. The bigger problem is the league knows all about this and knows when push comes to shove later in series, these guys will just disappear. No other excuses/ reasons matter more than their lack of bite or courage to do what’s needed to lead their team as they’re so highly paid to do. Prove me wrong boys. I’ll be glad to eat my words.

 

[NVious]

If it’s a Matthews vs Marner debate, you keep the center over the winger all day every day…

In theory and in a vacuum for sure. The problem though is Matthews durability, Matthews may want even more money and we're not getting anything for Mitch if he just leaves.

Meanwhile if we could get Larkin for 25% retained for Matthews (Detroit gets the better player and we save 8 mill), add Bennet, then resign Marner/Knies/Tavares.

We could roll

Knies-Larkin-Marner
Domi-Bennet/Tavares-Nylander
McMann-Bennet/Tavares-Holmberg

Arguably the best top 9 in the NHL

 

[Ports]

Good question. I think it would - at least to some degree. If the Leafs would acknowledge that he is banged up but say that he has been sacrificing his body all season and playing through it to ensure the Leafs got the division win, and is now gutting it out in the playoffs because he loves the city and team, I think it would go a long way.

I realize in the playoffs teams don't say things like that. But obviously, if the fan base knows he's injured so does the opposing team. Putting a positive spin on it would probably lessen the criticism from the fans and media, and not give away any info to opposing teams they don't already have.

Having said that, it doesn't address the history of playoff ineffectiveness.

Lots of players are banged up but this isn’t new with Matthews. He disappears late in series. If he’s healthy enough to win face offs, he’s healthy enough to score goals.

 

[Ports]

if you moved the Leafs team to Florida, the entire 'core' would cost about 10-15% less and the supporting cast would be that much better, it is Not the core, its the imbalance in quality depth created by no tax/low tax states VS high tax states.

Ridiculous. Edmonton made the cup finals mostly on the back of two players. Their core gets it done.

 

[The Shadow]

Your own or someone else's?

Asking for a friend.

Your own

 

[therealkoho]

Have you ever had a shot of hydromorphine before a game? It is amazing how you don't feel any pain in your back for a few hours. Eventually da shot becomes less and less effective. So they switch up the pain killers. My guess is this is some kinda inflammation issue where da medical people don't think it is structural. I have taken steriods and taken rest and inflammation ceases. Matty is playing every 2nd day so rest is not in da cards. Also I think with 3 days rest you might see him improve his play for Wednesday night. It is very likely his best chance to have a better game.

Hydromorphine is not a "local" and doesn't work the way you're suggesting.

Having had back issues since I broke my back at 28, I do have some knowledge. I still skied, played hockey, football and baseball, golfed and lived a pretty normal life, but sometimes was totally unable to because of debilitating pain, which could last for a couple of weeks or never end.

So what's that got to do with dialuadid, hydromorphone and all the other pills in that family of synthetic morphines? For one the effect is a total body experience, you're drained physically, they suppress your breathing, they effect your coordination and even if you could take enough of them to totally blot out the pain, the extra damage you may cause yourself wouldn't be close to being worth it.

 

[arso40]

A Matthews vs Marner debate is pretty interesting and not at all straight forward if you only could keep one.

Marner sounds like a guy who wants to be living in the overpaid prestige territory which is unattractive. His regular season offense seems a lot more economical than Matthews, and feels like he has more durability to coast at a higher level longer into his 30s. He gets you into the playoffs on cruise control but come playoffs he’s not a leading man. Four Nations tells us he could be the little facilitator who helps your alpha gut out a win. But he’s not the straw that stirs the drink.

In theory Matthews is that alpha but it just doesn’t seem like he’s living up to that benchmark. Plus with his mystery health… have we exited his prime years?

I hope your not suggesting marners the better keep

 

[therealkoho]

He will score 2 tomorrow!

As negative as I may be about the guy I certainly hope so.

 

[therealkoho]

If it’s a Matthews vs Marner debate, you keep the center over the winger all day every day…

If the centre is damaged goods and you never know when he cannot perform, then you keep the guy who, runs the PP/PK puts up 100 points a year and who's connection to the team probably exceeds most fanboys, enough so that he'd more than likely die for the team.

 

[Lightsol]

If the teams defense are pressuring Matthews to take away his shot, his linemates will be getting chances and that has been what is happening. Both Marner and Knies are getting chances as the F1 and F3 because as soon as they enter the zone the defense is taking Matthews right away.

I think you accidentally pulled up games from last year; this year, Florida is all but ignoring Matthews in the o-zone to take shooting lanes away from Marner and Knies. They're disrespecting him 100%, and he's doing nothing to capitalize on it.

 

[ruaware41]

What does it matter if he is scoring the goal or setting up a goal? No one has been able to explain that to me. Production is production.

The way he is talked about is like he has 2 points in 12 games

It matters because of matchups on the road. They no longer respect him for his offense especially 5v5. Most his points have come on the rush or assists on the powerplay. This means the systematic breakout and play of their line overall 5v5 and ability to systematically generate offence is not respected. Which means Maurice no longer will match Barkov with them and will occasionally even start his 4th line against them. We are absolutely fukked on the road if Matthews is not getting any respect for his offense. At home we are fine. The Leafs will probably win the next game, I am pretty confident about it. Game 6 I don't know though... and game 7's are game 7's..

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

I hope your not suggesting marners the better keep

It's a real Sophie's choice.

Mitch Pros:

1. #1 RW
2. Defends at a Selke level
3. Capable of scoring 100+ points a year
4. Plays on the PP and PK
5. Durable

Mitch Cons:

1. Prone to disappearing in the playoffs
2. Soft
3. Has poor mental outlook with fans and media in this large market which may contribute to playoff ineptitude
4. Overinflated sense of market value

Matthews Pros:

1. #1 C
2. Defends at a Selke level
3. Capable of 60+ goals and 100+ points a year
4. Plays on the PP and PK
5. Strong on faceoffs

Matthews Cons:

1. Prone to disappearing in the playoffs
2. Soft-ish. Not a bruiser but plays with a bit more physicality than Marner, still not enough
3. Avoids responsibility for poor play and prone to excuse making, at least in the media
4. Refuses to sign long term deals in favour of extracting as much money and taking up as much cap space as possible
5. Made of glass and constant injury issues call into question if his previous scoring prowess will continue

Conventional wisdom says you keep the #1 C every time. But I do think Matthews' injury issues are worth taking pause over considering how much we're paying him and how he hasn't looked dangerous at all this postseason (and rarely did in the regular season). Would need to see what and if he does anything in the offseason to rectify whatever is ailing him and if he can bounce back to a 50+ goal scorer at least. If he looks as poor as he did this season next year I think the argument leans more towards Marner.

Of course Marner needs a deal now, not next year. So unfortunately timing is against us again and we can't evaluate how Matthews will look after an offseason to maybe recover. They could also each get their heads out of their asses and lead this team to a series victory over Florida and hopefully more, then this conversation would be moot and the franchise could endeavor to sign Marner with no hesitation.

 

[Lightsol]

A Matthews vs Marner debate is pretty interesting and not at all straight forward if you only could keep one.

Marner sounds like a guy who wants to be living in the overpaid prestige territory which is unattractive. His regular season offense seems a lot more economical than Matthews, and feels like he has more durability to coast at a higher level longer into his 30s. He gets you into the playoffs on cruise control but come playoffs he’s not a leading man. Four Nations tells us he could be the little facilitator who helps your alpha gut out a win. But he’s not the straw that stirs the drink.

In theory Matthews is that alpha but it just doesn’t seem like he’s living up to that benchmark. Plus with his mystery health… have we exited his prime years?

The issue for a while has been this: Does Marner disappear in the playoffs? Does Matthews disappear in the playoffs? Do they both disappear? Or does one drag the other down?

Thats's why I say split them; because now, more than ever, you NEED to find this out. Because if you decide it's both or just Marner, and let him go, and it turns out that it's MATTHEWS, you just f***ed yourself twice over.

 

[ruaware41]

It's a real Sophie's choice.

Mitch Pros:

1. #1 RW
2. Defends at a Selke level
3. Capable of scoring 100+ points a year
4. Plays on the PP and PK
5. Durable

Mitch Cons:

1. Prone to disappearing in the playoffs
2. Soft
3. Has poor mental outlook with fans and media in this large market which may contribute to playoff ineptitude
4. Overinflated sense of market value

Matthews Pros:

1. #1 C
2. Defends at a Selke level
3. Capable of 60+ goals and 100+ points a year
4. Plays on the PP and PK
5. Strong on faceoffs

Matthews Cons:

1. Prone to disappearing in the playoffs
2. Soft-ish. Not a bruiser but plays with a bit more physicality than Marner, still not enough
3. Avoids responsibility for poor play and prone to excuse making, at least in the media
4. Refuses to sign long term deals in favour of extracting as much money and taking up as much cap space as possible
5. Made of glass and constant injury issues call into question if his previous scoring prowess will continue

Conventional wisdom says you keep the #1 C every time. But I do think Matthews' injury issues are worth taking pause over considering how much we're paying him and how he hasn't looked dangerous at all this postseason. Would need to see what and if he does anything in the offseason to rectify whatever is ailing him and if he can bounce back to a 50+ goal scorer at least. If he looks as poor as he did this season next year I think the argument leans more towards Marner.

Of course Marner needs a deal now, not next year. So unfortunately timing is against us again and we can't evaluate how Matthews will look after an offseason to maybe recover. They could also each get their heads out of their asses and lead this team to a series victory over Florida and hopefully more, then this conversation would be moot and the franchise could endeavor to sign Marner with no hesitation.

At least with Marner we can be pretty confident with what we are getting for the next 5 years. With Matthews injury history we have absolutely no clue what we will get and odds are his play will decline much more than Marner's with age and injury history. That's a damn near certainty though anything could happen. Both are going to ask you to give them a blank cheque come contract time, and both don't score in the playoffs. As you said, that and the rest is about the same except the position they play.

Based on that, I would keep Marner 100 times out of 100 and force Matthews out of here like the way Tampa forced McDonagh out despite his NTC so that the Leafs can at least grab some assets for him and not lose him in free agency. Because let's be honest, his next contract will be based on what he's done to date, NOT what he will do in the future. It's almost a guaranteed over payment