Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[Ianturnedbull]

I posed this question to another poster but shouldn’t they be better every year? Why are the so unprepared to start the season for a second year in a row.
should we be ok with them taking 10-15 games every year to get their act together

I think quite a few teams take that long. I suppose what is different is that an early stumble with TOR can lead to major resentment from the fans. That's why that first game vs. MTL was so important, but they didn't show up. That literally set the tone. Every loss is going to be 50 pages of resentment, and every win will have a "ok, but I'm waiting for them to have another bad loss" reaction from the fans. How was this going to play out anyway? TOR keeps losing in the post-season, but Dubas'/Shanny make very few changes and then run it back again. I mean this is the team. Dubas might bring up a fighter for a few games, he might give Robertson some starts, but not much else. It's a shame really...

 

[All Mod Cons]

Maybe my favourite Leaf's period in recent memory was when the team was young, hungry, battling. I miss those days before everything was just about Dubas and the big contracts. I look back very fondly on the Washington playoff series and that entire era.

Cheering for the team is a bit of a chore these days. Every other fanbase thinks and talks about us constantly. Every article is some iteration of failure and dooming - even when things are good, the articles are laced with "can they do it in the playoffs".

After this year, if we don't make progress, I have no qualms with tearing it down to the studs and trying to retool properly, with capital being spent more evenly.

One of my absolute favourite, if not the favourite times of following sport, was watching Komorov and Kadri absolutely truck into a couple of Capitals leading to a Matthews goal 30 odd seconds later. I was so proud of that team.

That, and when Conner Brown tipped in that puck against the Penguins and the sheer joy on those guy's faces. Then McBackup making an incredible save a minute later.

I've not felt that amount of joy since, with watching the Leafs. The management has slowly eroded away the majority of feelings I have when watching the Leafs now.

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Yikes. And zero playoff series wins.

Ugh the 2022 draft!

At this point you can't help but feel for Burke.

 

[andora]

Maybe my favourite Leaf's period in recent memory was when the team was young, hungry, battling. I miss those days before everything was just about Dubas and the big contracts. I look back very fondly on the Washington playoff series and that entire era.

Cheering for the team is a bit of a chore these days. Every other fanbase thinks and talks about us constantly. Every article is some iteration of failure and dooming - even when things are good, the articles are laced with "can they do it in the playoffs".

After this year, if we don't make progress, I have no qualms with tearing it down to the studs and trying to retool properly, with capital being spent more evenly.

This is one of the best posts i have read on here in months.. partly because i can relate but also because of what i believe to be true

That series was exciting and even with the loss there was unmeasurable optimism. I cannot fathom coming out of that season not thinking we had elements of a winner. The direction changed 90 degrees shortly there after and chore is the right word... for me anyhow.

The team skipped the middle step in a rebuild to contender process highlighted by a certain signing and the dwindling began.

Also agree that after this year the option to renovate is likely.. it has to be. Do what it takes to win can mean a lot of things to a lot of people.. and it is different in terms of what management can do versus players on the ice - but people making decisions have to show that this is not alright, time is slipping away and we need to be bold.

 

[notbias]

Yikes. And zero playoff series wins.

Have to do the picks he has brought in too otherwise this is a pointless exercise.

Would be curious how this looks next to other teams that are in the playoff run during that time.

That list is basically what Florida traded last year for 4 wins in the playoffs (obviously exaggerating)

 

[JT AM da real deal]

Ugh the 2022 draft!

At this point you can't help but feel for Burke.

It is pretty clear he is useless on trades .. has no idear what to look for or what to assess .. although Muzzy trade i think was a solid trade .. da term of his contract to lower his AAV is da issue which was caused by over paying 4 forwards

 

[Racer88]

I don't care if they take 70 games to get their act together, I just want them to make the playoffs and play well when they get there. I'm confident they will make the playoffs and last season they actually played well when they got there. For the first time since WSH, I don't feel any shame for the way we lost so I'm just hoping for more of the same, and if we play as well as we did against TB, chances are we will go far.

Seriously dude, we've only played 4 games and we're .500. It's not a matter of "should we be ok with", it's a matter of "should we be freaking out" and there really is no reason for that.

That’s ok if you are good with them taking 70 games to get their act together. I have higher standards

 

[Racer88]

I think quite a few teams take that long. I suppose what is different is that an early stumble with TOR can lead to major resentment from the fans. That's why that first game vs. MTL was so important, but they didn't show up. That literally set the tone. Every loss is going to be 50 pages of resentment, and every win will have a "ok, but I'm waiting for them to have another bad loss" reaction from the fans. How was this going to play out anyway? TOR keeps losing in the post-season, but Dubas'/Shanny make very few changes and then run it back again. I mean this is the team. Dubas might bring up a fighter for a few games, he might give Robertson some starts, but not much else. It's a shame really...

That’s my question. It boggles the mind why they could show up and win against 2 of the worst teams in the entire NHL .
The players sole purpose is to play for the fans. Without the fans there is no money generated and no jobs for the players, coaches, management etc etc. Are they that tone deaf that they don’t feel like they need to try unless it suits them

One of my absolute favourite, if not the favourite times of following sport, was watching Komorov and Kadri absolutely truck into a couple of Capitals leading to a Matthews goal 30 odd seconds later. I was so proud of that team.

That, and when Conner Brown tipped in that puck against the Penguins and the sheer joy on those guy's faces. Then McBackup making an incredible save a minute later.

I've not felt that amount of joy since, with watching the Leafs. The management has slowly eroded away the majority of feelings I have when watching the Leafs now.

They are now divided into haves and have nots no wonder they barely recognize as a team some times

 

[Lemontree]

We have a good prospect pool and some good young players. LW might end up being stronger than RW, we have Amirov, Knies, Robertson, all amazing prospects.

Rielly, Liljegren, Sandin is not a bad start to a D group for the next ~8 years.

Niemela, Villeneuve, and Kral, all at worst I think could be good secondary help.

So are you advocating we should be sellers at the deadline? If people don't want to add at the deadline they should be fine with Dubas staying on forever. You are taking away a tool that all GMs use in a playoff race.

You listed -- Kadri, Hyman, Brown, Kapanen, Johansson, Moore & Mikheyev
The only guy who hasn't been replaced is Kadri, who is very hard to replace and he was shipped out for other reasons.

You are overrating the prospect pool. The 3 guys you mentioned, the most realistic view is they could hoopefully all become solid 2 line wingers.........no one of them are amazing but all offer some hope that they can develop into players that are good enough to ride shot gun with our top guys for a few years as cheap cap hit options.

 

[Gary Nylund]

That’s ok if you are good with them taking 70 games to get their act together. I have higher standards

Win the cup baby, that's the standard for me. I didn't care when they sucked for the first 7 games last season, I didn't care when they had a record breaking November last season and I don't care that they've been below par through 4 games this season. I mean 4 games, that's nothing.

 

[darrylsittler27]

You are overrating the prospect pool. The 3 guys you mentioned, the most realistic view is they could hoopefully all become solid 2 line wingers.........no one of them are amazing but all offer some hope that they can develop into players that are good enough to ride shot gun with our top guys for a few years as cheap cap hit options.

There were flaws in Dubas' strategy. He went all in too soon and got nothing for all his "own rentals". The pool is now thin with very few impact prospects. Knies and Robertson can help and Niemela may become a top 4 but after that ? You can pick up 3rd and 4th liners and 5 to 7 D easily in Free agency etc. I also think Dubas gets a tougher time in the trade market, we always pay top $$$ when we trade, not too mention all the dumped first rounders. Dubas could be fired by the new year leaving very little in the cupboards unless one of those Goalies becomes a number one. I look at Dubas strategy and it is coming to a head quickly. He lacked foresight, assumed the cap would go up and then began to gamble as other GM's lined up to take advantage of him. In short, it doesnt look good for Dubas right now and I think ownership has seen enough.

 

[rocketman588]

Have to do the picks he has brought in too otherwise this is a pointless exercise.

Would be curious how this looks next to other teams that are in the playoff run during that time.

That list is basically what Florida traded last year for 4 wins in the playoffs (obviously exaggerating)

Hasn't he brought in

1 first a 3 and and a 7 only off player trades (and the second I guess from mrazek)

Trading picks we have for two worse picks because you've wasted all your assets doesn't do anything.

What other ones am I missing?

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Yikes. And zero playoff series wins.

Staggering. How to gut a team of a future 101.

He’s amazing though! Such an intellectual

 

[Racer88]

Win the cup baby, that's the standard for me. I didn't care when they sucked for the first 7 games last season, I didn't care when they had a record breaking November last season and I don't care that they've been below par through 4 games this season. I mean 4 games, that's nothing.

I could go along with win the cup.

 

[rocketman588]

You are overrating the prospect pool. The 3 guys you mentioned, the most realistic view is they could hoopefully all become solid 2 line wingers.........no one of them are amazing but all offer some hope that they can develop into players that are good enough to ride shot gun with our top guys for a few years as cheap cap hit options.

It'll be a great story if Amirov ever plays hockey

But he's faaar from a can't miss prospect.

His best season is less then a ppg in the Russian version of the OHL...

 

[Gary Nylund]

There were flaws in Dubas' strategy. He went all in too soon and got nothing for all his "own rentals". The pool is now thin with very few impact prospects. Knies and Robertson can help and Niemela may become a top 4 but after that ? You can pick up 3rd and 4th liners and 5 to 7 D easily in Free agency etc. I also think Dubas gets a tougher time in the trade market, we always pay top $$$ when we trade, not too mention all the dumped first rounders. Dubas could be fired by the new year leaving very little in the cupboards unless one of those Goalies becomes a number one. I look at Dubas strategy and it is coming to a head quickly. He lacked foresight, assumed the cap would go up and then began to gamble as other GM's lined up to take advantage of him. In short, it doesnt look good for Dubas right now and I think ownership has seen enough.

Dubas has hardly gone all in. Compare to other top contenders and except for Carolina, they have all spent way more futures than us so we are in excellent shape moving forward.

The pool is not thin at all, compare to other top contenders and we're looking pretty good.

Dubas has done just fine with trades.

You're right, he didn't have the foresight to see that covid was coming freezing the cap so hang him from the highest tree. LMAO.

I could go along with win the cup.

Before the season started, we were among the top favorites. I doubt much has changed over these 4 games so ... this could be the year.

Seriously though, I hope just as much as you do that they don't wait 70 games to start playing. And you know what, I'm pretty sure they won't.

 

[kevsh]

Dubas has hardly gone all in. Compare to other top contenders and except for Carolina, they have all spent way more futures than us so we are in excellent shape moving forward.

The pool is not thin at all, compare to other top contenders and we're looking pretty good.

Dubas has done just fine with trades.

You're right, he didn't have the foresight to see that covid was coming freezing the cap so hang him from the highest tree. LMAO.

Considering the picks he's given up and the self-rentals, I agree he hasn't gone "all in", at least not in the traditional sense. He's spread the hemorrhaging over several years, each time convinced that "this is the group" to break through, and of course they didn't.

Maybe an easier way to think of it is, compared to those other top contenders who are now relatively thin on picks & prospects, at least they all at least got a few playoff series wins out of it (and in the case of the Bolts, well you know).

I'd argue Dubas has not done well with trades overall. Now we can argue back and forth ont the specific deals but it's an easy argument for me to win: He hasn't been "Just fine" trading overall because they haven't won a single playoff round.

And lastly, I'm not sure how anyone, including Vegas oddsmakers can call this team a "top contender". This is the NHL where plenty of regular season wonders flop in the playoffs, so I take issue with calling any team a contender that can't win a single playoff series after all the regular season success they've had. Contender for team most likely to flop playoff-time? Sure.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Considering the picks he's given up and the self-rentals, I agree he hasn't gone "all in", at least not in the traditional sense. He's spread the hemorrhaging over several years, each time convinced that "this is the group" to break through, and of course they didn't.

Maybe an easier way to think of it is, compared to those other top contenders who are now relatively thin on picks & prospects, at least they all at least got a few playoff series wins out of it (and in the case of the Bolts, well you know).

I'd argue Dubas has not done well with trades overall. Now we can argue back and forth ont the specific deals but it's an easy argument for me to win: He hasn't been "Just fine" trading overall because they haven't won a single playoff round.

And lastly, I'm not sure how anyone, including Vegas oddsmakers can call this team a "top contender". This is the NHL where plenty of regular season wonders flop in the playoffs, so I take issue with calling any team a contender that can't win a single playoff series after all the regular season success they've had. Contender for team most likely to flop playoff-time? Sure.

I guess I'd prefer to be where we are (better set up for the future) than be thinner on picks etc. with a few series wins to show for it, as it means we have better chances of winning it all in the next few years. Of course if we had a cup to show fir it, I'd prefer to not have the picks.

I would also say that there's more to assessing future prospects than looking at the prospect pool and picks, something that's ignored by all the people whining about our prospect pool. The most important part of what we have is some super elite talent with most of their prime years in front of them. If those guys can continue to play at the level that they did last season, we really don't need the prospect pool to add much to put us over the top.

I think the trades have been fine. If you want to argue that they haven't been fine because we haven't won a round, that is your right. If that's your criteria than you could say everything has been done wrong for that very same reason and again, you have the right to hold that opinion.

You don't understand why the Vegas oddsmakers think the way they do, that's fine too. My experience has been that they are wrong far more often than they are right. Could be they're wrong, anything's possible but based on their track record, I'm comfortable saying they know what they're doing and they are far more likely to be right than wrong. Plus when they say COL is the cup favorite and we are in the next tier of contenders along with TB, FLA and CAR, that seems completely accurate to me based on what I know about the NHL teams the way they are today.

I get it, we've sucked in the playoff for many years (though we played well for a change against TB) and all those 1st round exits is a very bad look and makes it easy to say the team will fail again. On the other hand, compare this roster to other teams, and we look quite good. Add in that we did play so well against TB and it looks even better. If we had somehow managed to win say 4 rounds in the last 4 years, there would be 99% less defeatist mentality around here so the question is - how much does the past affect the future? I would say that it's up to the players. If they let it get in their heads then of course it can. But if they can shake it off and just play, then it has no affect at all. As a fan I'm hoping for the best and I see no reason to think they can't do it this time around and as I've said earlier, their play against TB was a step in the right direction. If they play the same way this season and the goaltending holds up, they will go far.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Two things:

1. I'll wait another month to see where we are in the 22-23 regular season. We had a much worse stretch early last season.

2. As for Dubas, his future became obvious to all (well, most) when he publicly revealed his contract status. Shanahan and his superiors know they can't get away with a 3rd consecutive "we're close and we're bringing the whole gang back" press conference. If this season ends with no better than a 1st round loss, Dubas will be gone. Can't go zero for five with arguably the most talented core in team history.

 

[Racer88]

Dubas has hardly gone all in. Compare to other top contenders and except for Carolina, they have all spent way more futures than us so we are in excellent shape moving forward.

The pool is not thin at all, compare to other top contenders and we're looking pretty good.

Dubas has done just fine with trades.

You're right, he didn't have the foresight to see that covid was coming freezing the cap so hang him from the highest tree. LMAO.


Before the season started, we were among the top favorites. I doubt much has changed over these 4 games so ... this could be the year.

Seriously though, I hope just as much as you do that they don't wait 70 games to start playing. And you know what, I'm pretty sure they won't.

I’m hoping it start Thursday night

 

[Ianturnedbull]

I can't think a more dramic start to the season:

1. Injuries in preseason.
2. Brutal loss to MTL and AZ
3. Murray LTIR after 1 game
4. Keefe criticizing the make up of the team (commenting both on Kyle and the key players)
5. Keefe reneging on his comments
6. Muzzin injured and Marner commenting like he might a be long shot to return.

Holy smokes. Game 5 isn't even here yet!





Any surprise?

 

[Shooter2x]

I can't think a more dramic start to the season:

1. Injuries in preseason.
2. Brutal loss to MTL and AZ
3. Murray LTIR after 1 game
4. Keefe criticizing the make up of the team (commenting both on Kyle and the key players)
5. Keefe reneging on his comments
6. Muzzin injured and Marner commenting like he might a be long shot to return.

Holy smokes. Game 5 isn't even here yet!





Any surprise?

Elaborate no.4 ? (wrt Dubas not the players)

 

[Ianturnedbull]

Elaborate no.4 ? (wrt Dubas not the players)

Oh sure. Keefe has described the Leafs as a team and implied that they simply cannot win any other way. If MM/AM/JT/WN aren't clicking on possession, power play, and drop passes then they have no other way to win. They cannot win a tight defensive game, they cannot win with goaltending, they cannot win with toughness, they do not win with hard work, and they do not win with secondary scoring.

 

[Havoc]

Yikes. And zero playoff series wins.

I didn't get to post all day because this made me faint when I saw it and I only just woke up

 

[Puckstuff]

I didn't get to post all day because this made me faint when I saw it and I only just woke up

It’s disgusting

Had he just held onto Kadri, Marchment, JVR, all those 1sts and 2nds we would literally be better off.