Athletic: Dubas Job on the Line this Season (contract expiring after this season)

[Racer88]

We have almost 50% of the cap in 4 forwards.

The lightning have it in 2 forwards, a vezina level goalie and a norris level dman.

The Aves have it in 3 forwards and a Norris level dman.

That's quite a big difference. Not to mention those teams forwards tend to out produce ours during the postseason.

I know but some people chose to ignore those facts

 

[Stamkos4life]

Yeah fair enough.. i think for me the patience part was when bednar couldnt get out of the second round i think 3 times and cooper after the columbus

But youre right.. they all had something


But that is not the situation with such intensity around it

I agree, both teams were starting to have questions which were valid. But there were enough real results to warrant betting on them which paid off.

We don't have that.

 

[Leaf Fans]

No goal post moving here. People who accomplish less won't last as long as people who do. It's fairly elementary.

I'd say there is something inheritently wrong when the president, gm and coach are all rookies. At least someone should have prior experience.

Sorry, Keefe has been here for almost 3 years while dubas and Shanahan have been here for 8.

8 years without even one series win is wild.



Is that what you said when Lou was let go? Or nonis?

Lou was offered a new contract l, he declined it. He could have been senior advisor.

 

[deprw]

How many years of failure are you willing to give them…….especially Shanny. He is at 6 first round failure and counting

As a president I'm willing to give him at least one more GM, if he has the spirit and the fire. He made this franchise modern and on par with other well managed franchises. Our club culture in overall is lot better.

If his out of gas, then it would be time for change.

Is that what you said when Lou was let go? Or nonis?

Nonis was straight continuity from Burke and best example of our former management style. Make quick changes and then quick reset, which ends up being in hard cap environment best recipe for disaster. You make changes for sake of changes in environment where you can't make quick changes. No one will gift you valuable players or assets and there is no real UFA market like in the NBA. Where you can rebuild by adding two star players.

Even in European football where is no hard cap, those quick resets are hard to get trough without strong foundation. Demand immediate results and you get 2-3 years of quick fixes and next guy starts building on those quick fixes and after 3 guys you got dysfunctional bunch of parts and lots of wasted money. In that kind of environment you have to make quick decisions you trade you key players like Marner for being too small to players with lesser value and chip away you're assets. You'll fail and new guy comes in and decide you need faster team and trades away you're next key player, which has value.

Lou was part of our cleaning process of old guard and did his job. I'm not sure are you suggesting that we build our rebuild on 79yo GM, which has made those quick fixes on the Island.

But this is same rubbish discussion of what should of been, could have been, what it will be and would it be so.

I rather concentrate what is now and how it goes from here. It's new season and I'll enjoy that. I have followed this team and different sports over three decades and in overall Maple Leafs are in good shape now. In some way in great shape with real star players, exciting youngters coming up and I think our management has an idea what they're doing.

 

[francis246]

To be fair i think the point is they stuck with them developed a program and were rewarded

There were couple spots where bednar could have been fired, i think cooper had one low point..

Why are we comparing GM’s to Head coaches? Pretty sure both organizations changed GM’s and kept their head coaches.

 

[Stamkos4life]

As a president I'm willing to give him at least one more GM, if he has the spirit and the fire. He made this franchise modern and on par with other well managed franchises. Our club culture in overall is lot better.

If his out of gas, then it would be time for change.


Nonis was straight continuity from Burke and best example of our former management style. Make quick changes and then quick reset, which ends up being in hard cap environment best recipe for disaster. You make changes for sake of changes in environment where you can't make quick changes. No one will gift you valuable players or assets and there is no real UFA market like in the NBA. Where you can rebuild by adding two star players.

Even in European football where is no hard cap, those quick resets are hard to get trough without strong foundation. Demand immediate results and you get 2-3 years of quick fixes and next guy starts building on those quick fixes and after 3 guys you got dysfunctional bunch of parts and lots of wasted money. In that kind of environment you have to make quick decisions you trade you key players like Marner for being too small to players with lesser value and chip away you're assets. You'll fail and new guy comes in and decide you need faster team and trades away you're next key player, which has value.

Lou was part of our cleaning process of old guard and did his job. I'm not sure are you suggesting that we build our rebuild on 79yo GM, which has made those quick fixes on the Island.

But this is same rubbish discussion of what should of been, could have been, what it will be and would it be so.

I rather concentrate what is now and how it goes from here. It's new season and I'll enjoy that. I have followed this team and different sports over three decades and in overall Maple Leafs are in good shape now. In some way in great shape with real star players, exciting youngters coming up and I think our management has an idea what they're doing.

To clarify, did you also say "you fire GMs after 2 or 3 seasons, it's better to sell whole franchise and move it to sun belt. You're never gonna win anything anyway." when lou or nonis were fired?

I'm looking for consistentcy. If you think we should move the franchise if we are going to fire gms every 2-3 years when it comes to dubas, I hope you have the same opinion with past gms who were gone within 3 years.

Otherwise you are being a huge dubas fan boy.

 

[deprw]

To clarify, did you also say "you fire GMs after 2 or 3 seasons, it's better to sell whole franchise and move it to sun belt. You're never gonna win anything anyway." when lou or nonis were fired?

I'm looking for consistentcy. If you think we should move the franchise if we are going to fire gms every 2-3 years when it comes to dubas, I hope you have the same opinion with past gms who were gone within 3 years.

Otherwise you are being a huge dubas fan boy.

Lou wasn't fired and it never seemed to be the plan to keep him as GM forever. He was the one that was doing the cleaning at start of the rebuild. I think we at the same time revigorated his resume, so he was more sought after and landed that GM spot at the island.

Nonis was like said continuity to Burke and it way had run it course. We started first proper rebuild and something that had patience and foundation.

By that partrly tongue in cheek 2-3 years meant the situation where you run trough leadership and people with clear goal of getting success. Like we did with PPP years under Peddie. Burke and his front office was last example of bringing in Burke and do quick retool.

That kind of build never leads to anything under this hard cap world where live in now. If you sack Dubas after 2 or 3 years you have never given him a chance to any kind of success. All the changes he has made will be seen in three to four years like drafting or development. Now it's year five and it should be proper time for management to leave their handprint.

Will see how it goes. I'll give proper answer despite saying that last paragraph of looking into future, even though I don't like your trolling. You could give me proper answer why you left that laughing emoji to my first page comment...

 

[conFABulator]

I think it is fair to assess Dubas after this season. I think they should consider his whole body of work and that should include playoff performance. This is not the same for me as "win in the playoffs this year or you're out"...however, it is time for his team to start making playoff progress.

He has done a very good job, building a very good team. That team needs to take the next step. Many other recent champs showed patience and stuck with the program though, Colorado and Tampa come to mind and Sakic and Yzerman were given enough rope to eventually succeed.

We can debate if the Leafs are going to be better this year.

OUT:
Campbell
Mrazek
Mikheyev
Kase
Spezza
Lyubushkin
Simmonds (maybe)
Clifford

IN:
Murray
Samsonov
Jarnkrok
NAK
Gaudette, Malgin, Anderson, ZAR
Benn, Mete

Apart from goaltending (which was not a strength last year) these are all moves around the edges. He kept the core in tact and for most of them being a year older is a good thing. All of our division rivals took obvious steps back.

 

[DarkKnight]

It’s going to be a long season here if a couple meaningless pond hockey preseason games against the mighty Sens are any indication. Get out the shrine, he’s pure genius again! Hilarious.

 

[andora]

Why are we comparing GM’s to Head coaches? Pretty sure both organizations changed GM’s and kept their head coaches.

Sakic and yzerman were both installed before bednar and cooper..

 

[Racer88]

As a president I'm willing to give him at least one more GM, if he has the spirit and the fire. He made this franchise modern and on par with other well managed franchises. Our club culture in overall is lot better.

If his out of gas, then it would be time for change.


Nonis was straight continuity from Burke and best example of our former management style. Make quick changes and then quick reset, which ends up being in hard cap environment best recipe for disaster. You make changes for sake of changes in environment where you can't make quick changes. No one will gift you valuable players or assets and there is no real UFA market like in the NBA. Where you can rebuild by adding two star players.

Even in European football where is no hard cap, those quick resets are hard to get trough without strong foundation. Demand immediate results and you get 2-3 years of quick fixes and next guy starts building on those quick fixes and after 3 guys you got dysfunctional bunch of parts and lots of wasted money. In that kind of environment you have to make quick decisions you trade you key players like Marner for being too small to players with lesser value and chip away you're assets. You'll fail and new guy comes in and decide you need faster team and trades away you're next key player, which has value.

Lou was part of our cleaning process of old guard and did his job. I'm not sure are you suggesting that we build our rebuild on 79yo GM, which has made those quick fixes on the Island.

But this is same rubbish discussion of what should of been, could have been, what it will be and would it be so.

I rather concentrate what is now and how it goes from here. It's new season and I'll enjoy that. I have followed this team and different sports over three decades and in overall Maple Leafs are in good shape now. In some way in great shape with real star players, exciting youngters coming up and I think our management has an idea what they're doing.

fair Enough

 

[Racer88]

The leafs absolutely have to have playoff success this year or it is time for serious changes to either management, coaching or the core

 

[francis246]

Sakic and yzerman were both installed before bednar and cooper..

Colorado fired Greg Sherman and brought Sakic in to change the direction of the team. The Bolts never won the cup under Yzerman. Breisbois became the GM and made a few aggressive moves that solidified the roster. Both teams brought in new GM's that changed the make up of the team a little bit and then they ended up winning cups.

 

[andora]

Colorado fired Greg Sherman and brought Sakic in to change the direction of the team. The Bolts never won the cup under Yzerman. Breisbois became the GM and made a few aggressive moves that solidified the roster. Both teams brought in new GM's that changed the make up of the team a little bit and then they ended up winning cups.

Oh i see what you meant.. ok..

So sakic was hired in 2014 to change direction.. he won in his 8th season

The tampa situation brisebois in my opinion just carried on yzermans work. Yzerman was there 8 years to lay that pipe.. and 2 more after they won

Dubas going into his 5th year...not 8

 

[TorMapleJays]

How about successful road trip after game three presser?

 

[francis246]

Oh i see what you meant.. ok..

So sakic was hired in 2014 to change direction.. he won in his 8th season

The tampa situation brisebois in my opinion just carried on yzermans work. Yzerman was there 8 years to lay that pipe.. and 2 more after they won

Dubas going into his 5th year...not 8

I’m not advocating for the firing of Dubas. I’m just trying to figure out why people are comparing GM lengths of tenure to head coach lengths of tenure? Cooper and Bednar are not really comparable to Dubas.

If I’m the Leafs I give Dubas a 2 year extension. 1 year to get Matthews and Nylander signed, 1 year after that to win. Then if he fails a new GM can make a decision to keep Marner and Matthews together or restart at that point.

Listen Kyle is a good GM and he’s going to get hired else where immediately. I think the flat cap absolutely f***ed him. Which is unfortunate. But sometimes change is needed. For whatever reason my gut is telling me Ryan Hardy might be the guy who finally gets this group over the hump. His eye for talent is incredible, look at all the UFA Marlie signings he’s made, they are players and pushing to be NHL’ers. And he isn’t one dimensional GM who hyper focused on one style of play. Plus his track record in the USHL is pretty good. I think he understands the need for grit/skill and how they compliment each other. But he needs a few more years to be get seasoned as a GM.

 

[Dekes For Days]

How many years of failure are you willing to give them...

Evaluation of management is not based exclusively on the team's playoff series outcomes. He could win rounds and I could want him gone. He could lose in the 1st round again and I could want him to stay. It's about how he performs at his job.

Agreed! Just don't hire one who has no clue. And you certainly don't hire one that would rather be pals with his players than the boss.

Yeah, that would be inadvisable, but we didn't hire anybody like that.

No goal post moving here.

Except you literally are. Your argument was against hiring rookie GMs and coaches, and then when it was pointed out to you that the last 3 cups were won by teams that hired rookie GMs and coaches, you reverted back to the usual "first round loss!1!" slogan, while ignoring that those teams and management went through significant low moments as well.

I'd say there is something inheritently wrong when the president, gm and coach are all rookies.

Then you're claiming something is inherently wrong with the past 3 cup winners, which kind of makes your unsubstantiated argument fall flat.

Sorry, Keefe has been here for almost 3 years while dubas and Shanahan have been here for 8.
8 years without even one series win is wild.

It's hilarious that now you're trying to blame Dubas for playoff outcomes when he was assistant GM and when the team was tanking and wasn't even in the playoffs.

 

[justashadowof]

seems you're including some guys who are gone but not others.

if we look at the change from what he inherited:

Anderson 29 ----> Murray 28
McElhinney 35 --> Samsonov 25


Gardiner 28 -----> Muzzin 33
Zaitsev 27 -------> Brodie 32
Hainsey 37 ------> Giordano 39
Polak 32 ---------> Liljegren 23
Dermott 22 -----> Sandin 22


Kadri 28 -------> Tavares 32
Hyman 26 ------> Bunting 27
JVR 29 ---------> Kerfoot 28

Bozak 32 ------> Jarnkrok 31
Brown 25 ------> Engvall 26
Marleau 39 -----> NAK 26

Plekanec 36 ----> Kampf 27
Komarov 32 ----> ZAR 28
Kapanen 22 ----> Robertson 21
Johnsson 24 ---> Holmberg 23/Steeves 23/Abruzzese 23/Anderson 24

When I look at that list of moves, I mostly conclude that the team got better regular season results over the past 3 seasons through one thing and one thing only: the maturation of its 3 young star players into formidable NHL talents. Any semi-competent hockey man could have taken that inherited talent and maintained its support talent in an array of ways some of which could have even won some playoff rounds. And some players like Kadri, Hyman, Brown and Kapanen could have stayed and be a part of some sort of continuity of team.

 

[zeke]

When I look at that list of moves, I mostly conclude that the team got better regular season results over the past 3 seasons through one thing and one thing only: the maturation of its 3 young star players into formidable NHL talents. Any semi-competent hockey man could have taken that inherited talent and maintained its support talent in an array of ways some of which could have even won some playoff rounds. And some players like Kadri, Hyman, Brown and Kapanen could have stayed and be a part of some sort of continuity of team.

Bizarre take tbh. It's a pretty huge upgrade on defense and forwards, though a downgrade in net.

 

[deprw]

The leafs absolutely have to have playoff success this year or it is time for serious changes to either management, coaching or the core

That is fair ask. Last few previous season our division have been top heavy with experienced Boston and rising Tampa Bay (-Canadian division). Both are going downwards and we should use our chance before Ottawa and Detroit find their groove.

I'd just hope Matthews is healthy and makes same kind of leap McDavid did from 2021 to 2022. Training wheels should be off.

 

[Racer88]

That is fair ask. Last few previous season our division have been top heavy with experienced Boston and rising Tampa Bay (-Canadian division). Both are going downwards and we should use our chance before Ottawa and Detroit find their groove.

I'd just hope Matthews is healthy and makes same kind of leap McDavid did from 2021 to 2022. Training wheels should be off.

Here’s hoping…….

 

[andora]

I’m not advocating for the firing of Dubas. I’m just trying to figure out why people are comparing GM lengths of tenure to head coach lengths of tenure? Cooper and Bednar are not really comparable to Dubas.

If I’m the Leafs I give Dubas a 2 year extension. 1 year to get Matthews and Nylander signed, 1 year after that to win. Then if he fails a new GM can make a decision to keep Marner and Matthews together or restart at that point.

Listen Kyle is a good GM and he’s going to get hired else where immediately. I think the flat cap absolutely f***ed him. Which is unfortunate. But sometimes change is needed. For whatever reason my gut is telling me Ryan Hardy might be the guy who finally gets this group over the hump. His eye for talent is incredible, look at all the UFA Marlie signings he’s made, they are players and pushing to be NHL’ers. And he isn’t one dimensional GM who hyper focused on one style of play. Plus his track record in the USHL is pretty good. I think he understands the need for grit/skill and how they compliment each other. But he needs a few more years to be get seasoned as a GM.

Ok.. im with you.. and your 2 year extension piece is very reasonable as 1 of 2 options after this season.. the other of course if they decide to move on

But yes there are critical pointsin those two years that dubas is most familiar to deal with. Plus everything else he has spent 4 years constructing that should continue on the same path..

Honest question which marlie free agents did he specifically sign (hardy) that are now pushing

 

[francis246]

Ok.. im with you.. and your 2 year extension piece is very reasonable as 1 of 2 options after this season.. the other of course if they decide to move on

But yes there are critical pointsin those two years that dubas is most familiar to deal with. Plus everything else he has spent 4 years constructing that should continue on the same path..

Honest question which marlie free agents did he specifically sign (hardy) that are now pushing

Bobby McMann and Curtis Douglass the two most noticeable. I feel like McMann is going to make the team. Keefe has talked about him in every single availability so far.

 

[andora]

Bobby McMann and Curtis Douglass the two most noticeable. I feel like McMann is going to make the team. Keefe has talked about him in every single availability so far.

Oh do you mean hardy found them and signed them.. not that they were marlie contracts (ahl)

 

[zeke]

Bobby McMann and Curtis Douglass the two most noticeable. I feel like McMann is going to make the team. Keefe has talked about him in every single availability so far.

Bobby made some nice plays last night.